J Warg

To those with the ability to see invisible beings that surround us

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5 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

I'd be careful with all this voodoo!

 

Perhaps 'thought forms' exist as suggested by C.W. Leadbeater of Theosophy fame? If a thought, idea or meme can have a physical reality/body then perhaps it can gain energy and momentum and perhaps even infect and multiply? It seems to me that more basic ideas have a strong emotional content whereas lofty ideas are more abstract with only the faintest of emotion, think faeries! 

 

 

 

From my link above  re

 

http://www.theisticpsychology.org/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

and the parts about  'hallucinations of a good or bad order'

 

" In my dialogues with patients I learned of two orders of experience, borrowing from the voices themselves, called the higher and the lower order. Lower order voices are as though one is dealing with drunken bums at a bar who like to tease and torment just for the fun of it. They will suggest lewd acts and then scold the patient for considering them. They find a weak point of conscience and work on it interminably. For instance one man heard voices teasing him for three years over a ten-cent debt he had already paid. They call the patient every conceivable name, suggest every lewd act, steal memories or ideas right out of consciousness, threaten death, and work on the patient's credibility in every way. For instance they will brag that they will produce some disaster on the morrow and then claim honor for one in the daily paper. They suggest foolish acts (such as: Raise your right hand in the air and stay that way) and tease if he does it and threaten him if he doesn't. The lower order can work for a long time to possess some part of the patient's body. Several worked on the ear and the patient seemed to grow deafer. One voice worked two years to capture a patient's eye which visibly went out of alignment. Many patients have heard loud and clear voices plotting their death for weeks on end, an apparently nerve-wracking experience. One patient saw a noose around his neck which tied to "I don't know what" while voices plotted his death by hanging. They threaten pain and can cause felt pain as a way of enforcing their power. The most devastating experience of all is to be shouted at constantly by dozens of voices. When this occurred the patient had to be sedated. The vocabulary and range of ideas of the lower order is limited, but they have a persistent will to destroy. They invade every nook and cranny of privacy, work on every weakness and credibility, claim awesome powers, lie, make promises and then undermine the patient's will. They never have a personal identity though they accept most names or identities given them. They either conceal or have no awareness of personal memories. Though they claim to be separate identities they will reveal no detail that might help to trace them as separate individuals. Their voice quality can change or shift, leaving the patient quite confused as to who might be speaking. When identified as some friend known to the patient they can assume this voice quality perfectly. For convenience many patients call them by nick-names, such as "Fred," The Doctor," or "The Old Timer." I've heard it said by the higher order that the purpose of the lower order is to illuminate all of the person's weaknesses. They do that admirably and with infinite patience. To make matters worse they hold out promises to patients and even give helpful sounding advice only to catch the patient in some weakness. Even with the patient's help I found the lower order difficult to relate to because of their disdain for me as well as the patient.

" The limited vocabulary and range of ideas of the lower order is striking. A few ideas can be repeated endlessly. One voice just said "hey" for months while the patient tried to figure out what "hey" or "hay" was meant. Even when I was supposedly speaking to an engineer that a woman heard, the engineer was unable to do any more arithmetic than simple sums and multiplication the woman had memorized. The lower order seems incapable of sequential reasoning. Though they often claim to be in some distant city they cannot report more than the patient sees, hears, or remembers. They seem imprisoned in the lowest level of the patient's mind, giving no real evidence of a personal world or any higher order thinking or experiencing.

" All of the lower order are irreligious or anti-religious. Some actively interfered with the patients' religious practices. Most considered them to be ordinary living people, though once they appeared as conventional devils and referred to themselves as demons. In a few instances they referred to themselves as from hell. Occasionally they would speak through the patient so that the patient's voice and speech would be directly those of the voices. Sometimes they acted through the patient. One of my female patients was found going out the hospital gate arguing loudly with her male voice that she didn't want to leave, but he was insisting. Like many, this particular hallucination claimed to be Jesus Christ, but his bragging and argumentativeness rather gave him away as of the lower order. Sometimes the lower order is embedded in physical concerns, such as a lady who was tormented by "experimenters" painfully treating her joints to prevent arthritis. She held out hope they were helping her, though it was apparent to any onlooker they had all but destroyed her life as a free and intelligent person.

" In direct contrast stands the rarer higher order hallucinations. In quantity they make up perhaps a fifth or less of the patients' experiences. The contrast may be illustrated by the experience of one man. He had heard the lower order arguing a long while how they would murder him. He also had a light come to him at night like the sun. He knew it was a different order because the light respected his freedom and would withdraw if it frightened him. In contrast, the lower order worked against his will and would attack if it could see fear in him. This rarer higher order seldom speaks, whereas the lower order can talk endlessly. The higher order is much more likely to be symbolic, religious, supportive, genuinely instructive, and communicate directly with the inner feelings of the patient. I've learned to help the patient approach the higher order because of its great power to broaden the individual's values. When the man was encouraged to approach his friendly sun he entered a world of powerful numinous experiences, in some ways more frightening than the murderers who plotted his death. In one scene he found himself at the bottom of a long corridor with doors at the end behind which raged the powers of hell. He was about to let out these powers when a very powerful and impressive Christ-like figure appeared and by direct mind-to-mind communication counseled him to leave the doors closed and follow him into other experiences which were therapeutic to him. In another instance the higher order appeared to a man as a lovely woman who entertained him while showing him thousands of symbols. Though the patient was a high-school educated gas-pipe fitter, his female vision showed a knowledge of religion and myth far beyond the patient's comprehension. At the end of a very rich dialogue with her (the patient reporting her symbols and responses) the patient asked for just a clue as to what she and I were talking about. Another example is that of a Negro who gave up being useful and lived as a drunken thief. In his weeks of hallucinations the higher order carefully instructed him on the trials of all minority groups and left him with the feeling he would like to do something for minorities.

" In general the higher order is richer than the patient's normal experience, respectful of his freedom, helpful, instructive, supportive, highly symbolic and religious. It looks most like Carl Jung's archetypes, whereas the lower order looks like Freud's id. In contrast to the lower order, it thinks in something like universal ideas in ways that are richer and more complex than the patient's own mode of thought. It can be very powerful emotionally and carry with it an almost inexpressible ring of truth. The higher order tends to enlarge a patient's values, something like a very wise and considerate instructor. Some patients experience both the higher and lower orders at various times and feel caught between a private heaven and hell. Many only know the attacks of the lower order. The higher order claims power over the lower order and indeed shows it at times, but not enough to give peace of mind to most patients. The higher order itself has indicated that the usefulness of the lower order is to illustrate and make conscious the patients' weaknesses and faults.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Starjumper said:

It has been a long time since I read The Magus of Strovolos so I'm not sure what they say about it in there.  To me an entity means something that has an independent existence as an actual being of some kind, with spirit and emotions; in which case the psychic 'mask' that I made may not really qualify as an entity ... unless it becomes independent and gets sassy ... hmm, maybe that's where all the sass comes from  :)

 

Those other things that people create by accident I think of more like thought forms.  I never heard of larva so I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

 

Hello Steve,

 

That's exactly what I thought about these larvas whenever a read about them (as thought forms, “thought clouds” around a person), but many OBE authors mention encounters with these ‘creatures’ in their books… More in line with @GSmaster when he says:

 

 

18 hours ago, GSmaster said:

Larva is a nonintelligent astral being born out of obsessive thought of desires the only goal of which is to feed oneself.

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7 hours ago, Nungali said:

From my link above  re

 

 

You must be trying to murder someone with that wall of text, do you.

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12 minutes ago, J Warg said:

many OBE authors

 

I feel like the author whom you quoted in original post, does not know what he is talking about / did not have any education in that field, which is why he tries to make up his own terms for the things that have been already known for ages.

 

Elementals are beings made of an element, elemental of fire, would be a plasma being or a living fire. It could also be called salamandra, those elementals can cause macroeffects (burn the house). I have never seen anyone capable of truly summoning and controlling an elemental being from an elemental world. Ofc, there is a lot of "talk" about this. Imagine if there is a magus capable of controlling such being at will, how will anyone protect themselves? No qi arts, no qigong arts, no neigong arts can possible save you from a ball of fire that has consciousness.

 

It is always funny to see, how every 20 years we have a new genious spawn, who explores the world, and finds those things and comes with a new name for it.

As for why many people cannot recognize Larvas or do not know about them. It is same with Candida, how many people know that they have candida? How many people could see it? You cannot truly see it without some highend lab tests. Candida lives inside the body of every living human being.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

When I read that part of the book, my impression was daskalos was trying to make his students aware that their thoughts are powerful and can manifest in the real world. But the idea that we are generating sentient beings on a regular basis is just not my experience. 

 

Hi Fa Xin,

 

I find Daskalos' teachings quite clear and straightforward in this book, and definately he definitely does not speak figuratively.

 

But what interests me is that this is not your experience. 

 

So why some psychics-clairvoyants see things differently?

 

Perhaps EVERYTHING out there is subjective... always dependent on the viewer ... never concrete? :huh:

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1 hour ago, GSmaster said:

I feel like the author whom you quoted in original post, does not know what he is talking about / did not have any education in that field, which is why he tries to make up his own terms for the things that have been already known for ages.

 

Yeah, well, about this, I think he belongs to some Western school of occultism, he has his own vocabulary. For astral projection or OBE he calls it exomatosis.

 

I just found this:

 

http://www.paulkiritsis.net/_blog/Down_The_Rabbit_Hole/post/the-magus-of-strovolos-glossary-of-terms

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16 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

I did not mean to confuse you or offend you in any way.

 

Oh, don't worry, no offense taken, I just did not undertands what you meant ;)

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2 minutes ago, J Warg said:

, don't worry, no offense taken, I just did not undertands what you meant

 

Nobody does.

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10 hours ago, Nungali said:

"Really' ?   Well, they are 'out there' , depending on what you really mean by really  :)

 

Or what you consider 'reality'

 

here ya go ;

 

Hi Nugali,

 

Yes, all this is ok, informative, but theory nontheless. As I said, I'm more interested in the experiences by those with the ability "to see", experiences in a first person point of view.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, J Warg said:

 

Yeah, well, about this, I think he belongs to some Western school of occultism, he has his own vocabulary. For astral projection or OBE he calls it exomatosis.

 

I just found this:

 

http://www.paulkiritsis.net/_blog/Down_The_Rabbit_Hole/post/the-magus-of-strovolos-glossary-of-terms

You mean exosomatosis? The links i have found for Magus of Strovolos say exosomatosis unless i get something wrong.

 

What he talks about, i have found to be mostly true. Whether thoughtforms are autonomous entities or not, i don't know but it is not important IMHO. If you are damaging someone in some way does it matter if the cause is an entity or a thought? Or rather it is more important to avoid the thought altogether to prevent the damage in the first place?

Control of thoughts is important in magical cultivation in general. There is an actual step of magical development concerning "thought self-censorship" (not the actual term he uses) in Franz Bardon's initiation to the hermetics.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, J Warg said:

 

Hi Fa Xin,

 

I find Daskalos' teachings quite clear and straightforward in this book, and definately he definitely does not speak figuratively.

 

But what interests me is that this is not your experience. 

 

So why some psychics-clairvoyants see things differently?

 

Perhaps EVERYTHING out there is subjective... always dependent on the viewer ... never concrete? :huh:

 

Im not too sure. I think things are subjective to the point that everyone has different levels of clarity to perceive stuff. Different points of view and different filters for translating things. 

 

Ive read many books which don’t line up with my experience. Not that the books are wrong in any way - just not how I see things. 

 

But your question is a good one. 😊

Edited by Fa Xin

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2 hours ago, Zork said:

You mean exosomatosis? The links i have found for Magus of Strovolos say exosomatosis unless i get something wrong.

 

Hello Zork,

 

Probably the right root term would be exo-soma-tosis (I'm not a linguistic though)... But that's not the way presented in the book (not in the link I provided). They say EXOMATOSIS.

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37 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Ive read many books which don’t line up with my experience. Not that the books are wrong in any way - just not how I see things. 

 

I see... This world (visible and invisible) seems very complicated for a mortal's mind ...  

 

Thank you for your input  ;)

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

You must be trying to murder someone with that wall of text, do you.

 

:)   I usually only just put up the link, I am sure very few have read it , so I thought to post a part of the relevant section I was referring to ; just in case some people can deal with reading  more than  a few lines.

 

I bet you do when you read a book ?    But internet forums seem to have 'educated '  us   away from longer responses.

 

If its from a known dork ... I tend not to read half page posts from 'certain people' .... wait  !    am I 'certain people' now ?

 

:D 

 

Murderous intent?   Little old me  ... murderous intent  ...... nah !

 

 

sworddoom-nakadai.jpg

Edited by Nungali

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14 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

I feel like the author whom you quoted in original post, does not know what he is talking about / did not have any education in that field, which is why he tries to make up his own terms for the things that have been already known for ages.

 

Elementals are beings made of an element, elemental of fire, would be a plasma being or a living fire. It could also be called salamandra, those elementals can cause macroeffects (burn the house). I have never seen anyone capable of truly summoning and controlling an elemental being from an elemental world. Ofc, there is a lot of "talk" about this. Imagine if there is a magus capable of controlling such being at will, how will anyone protect themselves? No qi arts, no qigong arts, no neigong arts can possible save you from a ball of fire that has consciousness. [/QUOTE]

 

Meh .... just invoke an Undine .    Its the sylphs that are harder to deal with as the element air has no opposite   ;)

 

 

 

14 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

It is always funny to see, how every 20 years we have a new genious spawn, who explores the world, and finds those things and comes with a new name for it.

As for why many people cannot recognize Larvas or do not know about them. It is same with Candida, how many people know that they have candida? How many people could see it? You cannot truly see it without some highend lab tests. Candida lives inside the body of every living human being.

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, J Warg said:

 

Hi Nugali,

 

Yes, all this is ok, informative, but theory nontheless. As I said, I'm more interested in the experiences by those with the ability "to see", experiences in a first person point of view.

 

 

 

 

I guess you missed this bit :

 

" Its a huge subject and I have a lot of experience , sometimes, daily, so what do I write about ? probably better if you ask specific questions about what you want to know . "

 

 

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To be clearer' from my point of view and from my experience ...

 

 

On 12/04/2019 at 8:13 PM, J Warg said:

@Starjumper mentioned the book The Magus of Strovolos somewhere in this forum; I happened to find it in the internet so I started reading it and I’m really enjoying it (thanks ;))

 

The “magus” mentions beings like elementals; I have also read about these creatures in other books / articles under the names of thought forms, larvae, etc.

 

In the book Daskalos says:

 

We give birth to such elementals with our thoughts and sentiments. Once 'projected' they have an existence of their own and can affect those around us that 'vibrate' on the same frequency

 

So I'd like to ask those with the ability to see these (and others) invisible beings that supposedly surround us on a daily basis:

 

Are these beings really out there interfering in our lives?

 

Some are 'out there '  , yes I have experienced them, I have a thread here about it and how I made a 'spirit house' for them. This is a good thing to do and many cultures make them.

 

There are elementals 'out there'  but anything we create ourselves and then project that out there. or , it becomes alienated from us, usually comes from some part of us that we can describe under the elemental hierarchy ;  fire spirit, water emotions, air mind,  earth body.  ,  so they can have an elemental association, even though they are 'averse'.

 

 

On 12/04/2019 at 8:13 PM, J Warg said:

 

 

 

How is that even possible?

 

see the links I posted . Which are not my personal experience but someone elses, and certainly NOT a theory.  BUT my person experience seems to back up what they say .

 

 

On 12/04/2019 at 8:13 PM, J Warg said:

 

Do we human beings really create beings with an independent existence that easily? Are they somehow intelligent beings? Do they have feelings?

 

see answers above , again formulated from my personal experience and others which seems similar.

 

On 12/04/2019 at 8:13 PM, J Warg said:

 

I’d be more interested in reading about your experiences, not the theory of this topic.

 

 

The two main ones that come to mins are when I lived up on the mountain and made the spirit house, and my long running evocation ritual. I have posts and photos here about it .

 

It was hard to see anything in the ritual, until I came upon a novel way of using the 'Ring of Solomon' , which is supposed to help one see spirits. It didnt work, then,  I thought to use it a different way, and it did .

 

I won't write more about this now as I am due for chiropractic appointment ., I have already written a lot about it on TBs and what I have written here so far seems   ... unreceptive .   Also one cannot ignore the qualifiers I put in earlier about ;reality .  That is all part of it and should be address as well .

 

OR  if you want quick uncomplicated answers, ask direct questions.

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3 hours ago, Nungali said:

am I 'certain people' now

 

You are entering that club. <_<

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11 hours ago, Nungali said:

To be clearer' from my point of view and from my experience ...

 

 

 

Some are 'out there '  , yes I have experienced them, I have a thread here about it and how I made a 'spirit house' for them. This is a good thing to do and many cultures make them.

 

There are elementals 'out there'  but anything we create ourselves and then project that out there. or , it becomes alienated from us, usually comes from some part of us that we can describe under the elemental hierarchy ;  fire spirit, water emotions, air mind,  earth body.  ,  so they can have an elemental association, even though they are 'averse'.

 

 

 

 

That's what it was expected from the begining and I appreciate it :D

 

 

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

I won't write more about this now as I am due for chiropractic appointment ., I have already written a lot about it on TBs and what I have written here so far seems   ... unreceptive .

 

 

Not unreceptive ... but you tend to be very 'prolific' in a single post (or even in a series of them in a row!) and that saturates our little minds ^_^ 

 

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On 4/12/2019 at 5:37 AM, Jeff said:

Another had been chained and tortured hundreds of years ago as a power source for more negative magic. It was kind of crazy like a storm and needed to be released.

Jeff, did you hear  anything mentioned about a debtors prison? :)

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12 hours ago, mrpasserby said:

 

Jeff, did you hear  anything mentioned about a debtors prison? :)

 

No. Not sure what you mean?

 

This was more of a pure elemental (and not some form of human spirit) that had been trapped.

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On 4/14/2019 at 3:49 PM, Nungali said:

The two main ones that come to mins are when I lived up on the mountain and made the spirit house, and my long running evocation ritual. I have posts and photos here about it .

Nungali, making a spirit house is a very kind thing to do, as long as there is no binding of spirits. Thanks for the good feelings. :)

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