wandelaar

Meditation sickness and related deviations

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Posted (edited)

One student overheard a very well known Teacher from Thailand saying that “Westerners can’t meditate more that 15 minutes” - and so even though his lineage teaches long form meditation - he dumbs it down for Western students and actually teaches that 5-10 minutes of good meditation is better than long meditation. 

 

He was unaware that the student spoke fluent Tai as he belittled the western capabilities.

Edited by Spotless

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10 minutes ago, Spotless said:

The “wall” eventually ceases altogether.

 

That would be nice. :)

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One relatively common action of meditation is a jump in one’s energy.

 

If all else remains the same then for some people with propensities to alcoholism or abuse - or drug related problems or any excitable propensity - then diet and intake of stimulants or depressants (such as alcohol) can have a very heightened and negative impact. They allow for far more stamina to abuse oneself.

 

Anger management can be contained until a radical explosion. 

Impulsive behavior can take hold of one.

 

”Simple basic practice” always stresses the importance of diet in all aspects. The engineers are more concentrated on superfoods and semen retention - anything to get a leg up and engineer the energy to higher values.

 

Some forms of practice are heavily trance based and for anyone already a bit spaced out and out of their bodies - trance seems like a cakewalk it’s so easy - and it is an easy way to the funny farm as we’ll.

It is also not much more productive than good sleep - if it is productive at all. Often it is an exercise in delusion - as can be seen in a number of fundamental religious practices where nearly the whole congregation goes literally out of their minds, bodies and senses.

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3 minutes ago, Spotless said:

”Simple basic practice” always stresses the importance of diet in all aspects.

 

What is your advice as regards diet when practising "just sitting" for one hour a day?

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Sometimes the heightened senses from practice have people pouring over healing modalities and hyper- perfect life styles.

 

It is not uncommon for a seeker to become a professional seeker of help, healing and the perfect set of energy amulets. Often this is just a phase - often it is not.

 

Some can’t drink fluoridated water, can’t be near a cell tower and work heavily on creating various shields from demons and energy vampires and the like. Often a phase and often a lifelong debilitating hobby.

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The only thing I have noticed is that I have come to dislike junk food and confectionery. Not a big problem I guess. ;)

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2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

What is your advice as regards diet when practising "just sitting" for one hour a day?

The general dietary “rules” are to drop stimulants and foods that are considerably energized without a clarity in their energies.

 

Clean foods are those that have a relatively clear vibration - such as non-animal foods and unprocessed foods. Animal meat is considerably more complex and often has mixed messages in the vibrational component.  It is why some religious practices have requirements regarding how animals are killed and how the various body parts are handled.

 

Generally meat / animal products are heavier and can obscure subtle energies. Also the energies of the animal at the time of death can be very present in the meat. Fruits and vegetables tend to have relatively clear notes and are very vibrant.

 

When one eats in relation to meditation is also a component of one’s diet. Generally no meals less than two hours prior to sitting or practice.

 

The types of media one exposes oneself to and definitely consideration as to what one consumes in the way of media of any kind prior to sleep.

 

Generally the elimination of added sugar, refined flour, and alcohol/weed/drugs.

 

With these guidelines and others one proceeds along and finds out through experience what applies most to their habituations and proclivities.

 

Onviously mistakes are made and guidelines followed more or less.

It is often in the “mistakes” that the importance is seen.

 

If one were to just practice “simple” practice - one would eventually adopt the guidelines all by oneself.

But getting to these sensibilities is very much aided by not venting off newfound energies in old habits.

 

The changes that take place in “simple” sustained practice are extraordinary and they sneak up on the new student with a sort of unreal ebb and flow.

 

The guidelines are ancient and have proven to help those along the “Way”.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, freeform said:

being too forceful with intention or too much contrived directing of energy.

This was exactly what initiated my qi deviation back then.

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Posted (edited)

Hi wandelaar. Before such incident happened to my own self I'd had no idea those energy/chigong deviations could happen not to mention to so many people. Thanks for opening this topic!

 

During that period of time, I was like a walking dead and felt such deep deep hopelessness with uncontrollable energy in my body as well as those feelings in my head beyond words that it was almost like no way out.

 

However when I finally came out of that situation, "back to normal" and looked back it was not that severe as I thought I had been in, at all. If there had been anyone with similar experience who reached out for me and told me his or her experience and what could be done, it could've been so much better.

 

The acupuncture therapy and advice from people back then like relaxing walking not thinking about it did help a bit but wasn't the key to the recovery, at least for me. Since It was IMPOSSIBLE for me at that time to not think about it by telling myself not to think about it. 

 

I really appreciated my family who stood by me though the majority didn't believe it and thought it was some sort of psychosis:rolleyes:and subsequently made the matters worse by sending me to shrinks and giving me sleeping pills, sedatives and so forth... So it can be very important support from spiritual practitioners like us especially those who have had similar experience to reach out for people who are going through such dark period. 

Edited by Sora
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sora said:

The acupuncture therapy and advice from people back then like relaxing walking not thinking about it did help a bit but wasn’t the key to the recovery, at least for me.

 

Can you share what was?

Edited by freeform

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Posted (edited)

Did you mean the acupuncture therapy? @freeform

 

Hi @freeform  Hope you can get the notification for this one. My daily post quota has reached the limit as a new member while I found out it's still open for editing so here I am lol

 

"Sorry - didn’t quote the full sentence initially.

 

You said the advice helped a bit but wasn’t the key to full recovery. 

 

Can you you share what was the key to recovery for you? —from @freeformdownstairs."

 

↑Now let me reply to this one. The key is really hard to be described. It was an understanding that all is illusion and I got out of this fear-of-energy situation and even other stuff like my emotion and thoughts that I used to care and concern couldn't influence me anymore and I gradually grew more happy and carefree than I ever had been. 

 

It's not telling myself not to be afraid of the chi disorder or anything because I couldn't make myself believe "It's ok just don't think about it and it will get better". It's not about the thoughts in mind it's the KNOWING of the heart. But this understanding can't be expressed by words. I tried my best for many times to talk to those who reached for me for help in terms of their qigong deviation, but failed to pass on this understanding to them only made them calmed down a bit instead of having their problem uprooted.

 

There might be other ways around but for me when there was this one way that uprooted the tree, my qi deviation problem being solved was like a byproduct since this problem was like a leaf on the tree. If it makes sense?

 

I talked about a bit of this understanding in the following posts:

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/48383-hi-greetings-from-china/

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/47048-hello-everybody/?do=findComment&comment=863681→(Put the wrong link just now this is the one)

 

And other friends on TBD apologize here will reply to you guys tmrw when I get my quota renewed^_^

 

 

 

Edited by Sora
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Sorry - didn’t quote the full sentence initially.

 

You said the advice helped a bit but wasn’t the key to full recovery. 

 

Can you you share what was the key to recovery for you?

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The only meditation I know of is to simply let go of thought and or anything that may cause resistance, therefor becoming happy and NATURALLY HEALTHY AS YOUR PHYSICAL BODIES WELL BEING NATURAL AND DEFAULT STATE OF BEING. That one can do also do by focusing the mind on breathing, but that is only for the purpose of letting go of thought. The process of meditation as originally teached by all masters is the process of wei wu wei. The excersize of NOT DOING. Of LETTING GO. and there is any less danger in that as there is any less danger in dropping a gun. If you practice the shooting of the gun, meditation is the LETTING GO of that gun. However, AFTER YOU MEDITATE, yes then often people pick up the gun, and become conflicted because it no longer feels good to do so after you have reached enlightenment and realize the effect that your thoughts have on creating your entire own personal physical outward reality, and then they mess up the shooting, and they may accidentally shoot themselves, and then be crippled for life. In utter confusion and stupidity and ignorance. But again, that only happens if one meditates one time. Then go absolutely bezerk in rage for all the things they hate, and attract sickness unto themselves VIA THEIR HATEFUL PRACTICES. That has nothing to do with meditation, and never will. That has only everything to do with their mind, thoughts, insistence on creating more ideas delusions and illusions and actions upon actions and insistence upon insistence and arrogance upon arrogance. And then at the very last, the ultimatum of an orgasmic rampage of ignorance that causes them to then attack the notion of meditation being the cause of all of that... How stupid can you get... 

Dude, look, he didn't shoot people. He is the cause of all the wars on the planet! Attack him! 

Good bye idiots. :lol:

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Posted (edited)

With meditation there are obviously many incorrect ways of practicing... spotless mentioned several.

 

But I’ve also come across many people who’ve been practicing correctly but still had problems. The pattern was usually that they only did meditation.

 

In every organisation that had any students with achievement and few problems, there was always some energy work involved. Whether that energy work was from the teachers making direct changes through transmission or with herbal preparations or even by meditating in specific areas with certain energetic qualities... It became clear to me over the years, that simply meditating, even if done correctly, is simply not enough - both for meaningful progress but also for safety and health.

 

Now, again, the caveat is that what I’m talking about is ‘serious’ cultivation... an hour of meditation a day is usually just fine. I’m talking about dedicated cultivators doing long sits for 4 to 12 hrs a day, every day.

Edited by freeform
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, freeform said:

With meditation there are obviously many incorrect ways of practicing... spotless mentioned several.

 

But I’ve also come across many people who’ve been practicing correctly but still had problems. The pattern was usually that they only did meditation.

 

In every organisation that had any students with achievement and few problems there was always some energy work involved. Whether that energy work was from the teachers making direct changes through transmission or with herbal preparations or even by meditating in specific areas with certain energetic qualities... It became clear to me over the years, that simply meditating, even if done correctly, is simply not enough - both for meaningful progress but also for safety and health.

 

Now, again, the caveat is that what I’m talking about is ‘serious’ cultivation... an hour of meditation a day is usually just fine. I’m talking about dedicated cultivators doing long sits for 4 to 12 hrs a day, every day.

Again you talk about people who DO things and dont meditate. They don't excersize their ability to do the not doing. The art of allowing and of letting go of resistance of their insistence on doing things that have never been of any value to them or anyone, instead of letting go and allowing the true actions of their inner most deepest soul and greatest purpose and consciousness to flow fully trough them in this life for the fulfillment of their reason for existance, in all of its endless values and virtues, from their heart to the ends of the entire universe and up to all dimensions above and beyond. 

Edited by Everything

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Sora said:

Since It was IMPOSSIBLE for me at that time to not think about it by telling myself not to think about it.

 

It's generally a hopeless strategy to force oneself not to think of something.

See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Wegner#Ironic_process_theory

 

Much better is to get involved in something else so that one's attention and energy is automatically directed away from the unwanted thoughts.

 

Edited by wandelaar

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16 minutes ago, Everything said:

Again you talk about people who DO things and dont meditate.

 

I’m being clear and direct (as best as I can) - not trying to be poetic and fuzzy.

 

I don’t follow what you’re saying to be honest - you seem to be inferring about some subtle flaw in the practice of the people I’m talking about... I doubt you’ve met them all though.

 

Just to reiterate - there is no single magic practice that has both a real transformational effect and has no problems whatsoever. It just doesn’t exist. Meditation, however carefully done, is not exclusively safe...

 

This is important for people to know. When you go surfing, the dangers are apparent. When you get into meditation seriously you also need to know that there are dangers and pitfalls... pretending that there aren’t is just irresponsible... 

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There’s a post on how to use positive emotions to get into samadhi...

 

Which reminded me of a number of new age Osho offshoots I’ve come across - where they use strong emotion for the purposes of ‘cultivation’.

 

These actually tend to be groups with the largest number of casualties... when you dig deeper you discover that most people leave the groups after mental breakdowns, psychotic episodes, deep depression etc... there were also quite a few suicides.

 

But the people who’re there, still in the group, swear to how profoundly amazing the work is... To me, most of the people on those groups were characterised by extremely scattered energy, a fluttering heart centre, burnt out kidneys and a dull, depleted shen... similar to long term MDMA users actually... full of beautiful poetic sayings and expressions though :)

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16 hours ago, Spotless said:

One student overheard a very well known Teacher from Thailand saying that “Westerners can’t meditate more that 15 minutes” - and so even though his lineage teaches long form meditation - he dumbs it down for Western students and actually teaches that 5-10 minutes of good meditation is better than long meditation. 

 

He was unaware that the student spoke fluent Tai as he belittled the western capabilities.

 

5 to 10 minutes of good meditation would be better than spacing out for 2 hours, wouldn't It?

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

5 to 10 minutes of good meditation would be better than spacing out for 2 hours, wouldn't It?

Obviously

 

The point was the teacher at the lunch was definitely speaking derogatorily of Westerners and he teaches a different teaching than in his own country and other Aisian countries. 

 

It is not at all an uncommon attitude in the East that Westerners don’t have what it takes for serious practice - so they often sell a dumbed down version.

 

Instead of such a black and white example - look at the reality:

 

5-10 minutes here and there is basically not enough time to even begin “meditation” for a new person.

 

It is very different if a long seasoned meditator drops into meditation for 5-10 minutes - they can actually BE in meditation that quickly.

 

A new person is gaining some benifits but they will not BE in meditation in 5-10 minutes.

 

It is a nice exercise and fine but comes with a pre-made excuse not to work on extended meditation.

 

Everyone everywhere in the world loves the short form to get anywhere - but it takes time to BE in meditation and one needs to go forward thru the various phases in learning to BE there. A shallow practice is a trite practice - it becomes like religion - and aftershave.

 

 

 

Edited by Spotless
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2 hours ago, Spotless said:

The point was the teacher at the lunch was definitely speaking derogatorily of Westerners and he teaches a different teaching than in his own country and other Aisian countries. 

 

Yes sadly very common. And unfortunately they do have a point.

 

In China these arts also tend to be a numbers game... a teacher will normally have many hundreds of ‘outer door students’... He or she might give a basic instructions that is missing some of the ‘keys’ to make it work - then they look for the students that get the necessary results by themselves... these students are then invited to be ‘inner door students’...

 

Some teachers ‘brag’ that as much as 10% of their students manage to activate their Dan Tien (early milestone)... they don’t really care about the rest. Westerners almost never make up the 10% (although they’re often presented with plaques and certificates etc... because they attract more wealthy westerners to join.)

 

Other parts of Asia... particularly with an ‘official’ introduction... high level teachers will ‘test’ your level of development before deciding whether to teach you or not.

 

One of the tests is sitting in perfect meditation for 3+ hrs in a non conducive environment (back of a hot and busy restaurant kitchen for example).

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Posted (edited)

It’s was fun to hear of Freeforms “non conducive environment ” reference. My own Qi Gong Master often had people over with kids and food while I was in the same room silently doing practice for several hours. 

 

It was no bother in the least but quite homey - and actually very welcoming. They came to regard me as they regarded the Master - even giving red envelopes, food and gifts.

Edited by Spotless
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Quote

He should recognize that unwillingness to see those who know more than he does is the disease of egotism. Among all the sicknesses of Zen, none is worse than this.

 

Ch'an Master Nan, Huai-chin

 

https://terebess.hu/zen/PracticeZen.pdf

 

Of course since the OP self-censors then he probably won't be able to read about this type of sickness. haha.

 

 

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17 hours ago, freeform said:

Sorry - didn’t quote the full sentence initially.

 

You said the advice helped a bit but wasn’t the key to full recovery. 

 

Can you you share what was the key to recovery for you?

Hello freeform, in case you didn't get the notification here is the link https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/48398-meditation-sickness-and-related-deviations/?do=findComment&comment=863988

 

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