Jonesboy

Merging and guruyoga

133 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

You seem to be saying something different than Steve regarding no energy connection. Is the "transmission" simply the knowledge/teachings of a specific group/lineage? Or do you get more "stuff" like the blessings you say that will appear? Like what kind of things are "blessings"?

 

I am quite careful when using words like "energy". And I do not mean to really negate what Steve says but I do not thing the energy is the right word here. It is possible that what I mean by blessing is what he means by energy. Don't know and don't have time to read all the comments. So sorry for such intrusion without knowledge of context.

Yes that is my understanding of transmission. You gain the ability to change impure vision into pure (more like knowledge how to do it since pure vision is here always) and use mantras etc.. Also you get the chance to really use and study and practice the teachings given. Withotu transmission there is no vajrayana.

 

Blessings are part of the transmission as empowerment can enhance your practice even if you do not practice the particular deity you have been empowert to do. If you do not have empowerment you can say bilions of mantras, but nothing happens as there is no transmission and no blessings.

 

What are blessings? Well, that is a hard one. It might simply be that things go smoothly, that you develop compassion, your daily life goes well, but it also can be that some bad stuff in your life happens (you lose job etc.) and that helps you on the path. But I think it mostly is that you develop slowly that is the great blessing. Also it is that you see the nature of mind, that is a blessing. Also that you develop mindfulness, compassion and devotion, that is a blessing. Who is source of blessings? Lama is. What is the greatest blessing? Recognizing the nature of mind.
 

But when speaking about these things we must bare in mind they come with time and practice. Yes you might have transmission, but if you don't take a medicine what is the point of having it in your drawer? If you practice and work with the transmission then blessings come and you develop. But every rule has its exception and some people develop quite fast thanks to past lives.

 

Hope this makes sense I am tired.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Thank you very much for your responses, but they raise more questions...

 

You stated that..."There are also many non-verbal, non-conceptual transmissions that occur between teacher and student" and also "Yes, guru yoga is very energetically direct and is all about connecting." So what is being "transmitted"?

These are two different things.

 

Guru yoga is very specific - it is letting go of the mind and all of its "stuff" and resting in its unadulterated, unfabricated essence.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that anything is being transmitted or merged. Connection does not necessarily imply transmission. I think Miroku's response is spot on with one exception, I do think there is a powerful energetic connection going on. It all depends on how we define energy. So much of this sort of discussion tends to be an apples/oranges thing. For example, no one has adequately defined for me what is being merged, what merger means, and so forth.

 

The relationship between teacher and student is a human relationship, this is not equivalent to guru yoga.. All sorts of things are being transmitted as between any 2 human beings. Hopefully most of what is being transmitted is information and energy that is supportive of both teacher and student. 

 

Quote

And are you also saying that a buddhist teacher forms an energetic connection to the student?  What is the purpose of such a connection if it is not possible to help with the realization?

Absolutely, it can be a very powerful, close, and loving relationship.

In fact, the relationship to the teacher and the lineage is at the heart of guru yoga.

 

Does connection need a purpose?

It's my position that connection is our natural tendency and our natural state.

The ills of the world, IMO, are largely due to a lack of connection.

Life in samsara is nothing other than a lack of connection.

 

For sure the connection between teacher and student is intended to and does help and support spiritual growth and realization on many levels. There is also value in connection outside of spiritual objectives, however, when you boil it down it seems that anything related to openness and connection are ultimately useful in our spiritual lives.

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20 minutes ago, steve said:

These are two different things.

 

Guru yoga is very specific - it is letting go of the mind and all of its "stuff" and resting in its unadulterated, unfabricated essence.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that anything is being transmitted or merged. Connection does not necessarily imply transmission. I think Miroku's response is spot on with one exception, I do think there is a powerful energetic connection going on. It all depends on how we define energy. So much of this sort of discussion tends to be an apples/oranges thing. For example, no one has adequately defined for me what is being merged, what merger means, and so forth.

 

The relationship between teacher and student is a human relationship, this is not equivalent to guru yoga.. All sorts of things are being transmitted as between any 2 human beings. Hopefully most of what is being transmitted is information and energy that is supportive of both teacher and student. 

 

Absolutely, it can be a very powerful, close, and loving relationship.

In fact, the relationship to the teacher and the lineage is at the heart of guru yoga.

 

Does connection need a purpose?

It's my position that connection is our natural tendency and our natural state.

The ills of the world, IMO, are largely due to a lack of connection.

Life in samsara is nothing other than a lack of connection.

 

For sure the connection between teacher and student is intended to and does help and support spiritual growth and realization on many levels. There is also value in connection outside of spiritual objectives, however, when you boil it down it seems that anything related to openness and connection are ultimately useful in our spiritual lives.

 

Thank you again very much for your responses.  So by energetic connection you meant close, supportive and loving relationship?  Like an open and sharing connection that is how we should all naturally relate (but often don't) and not some sort of "energetic transmission" or any sort of "mind to mind" or "energy body" to "energy body" thing?

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in electrical terms two electrical generating devices and or powered up busses can merge if their frequency and voltage are the same or within a hair of each other and then very quickly become the same....this is also what is called and takes place when synchronizing a smaller individual generator to a much larger or main buss.  Btw, the amperage of the two during and after synchronization are not the same although their total amperage together feeds and equals what is on said buss, thus everything else that is connected down the line and drawing power will be at same voltage and frequency and have whatever amperage is available per its distribution to various loads on the buss. 

Edited by 3bob

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49 minutes ago, steve said:

These are two different things.

 

Guru yoga is very specific - it is letting go of the mind and all of its "stuff" and resting in its unadulterated, unfabricated essence.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that anything is being transmitted or merged. Connection does not necessarily imply transmission. I think Miroku's response is spot on with one exception, I do think there is a powerful energetic connection going on. It all depends on how we define energy. So much of this sort of discussion tends to be an apples/oranges thing. For example, no one has adequately defined for me what is being merged, what merger means, and so forth.

 

The relationship between teacher and student is a human relationship, this is not equivalent to guru yoga.. All sorts of things are being transmitted as between any 2 human beings. Hopefully most of what is being transmitted is information and energy that is supportive of both teacher and student. 

 

Absolutely, it can be a very powerful, close, and loving relationship.

In fact, the relationship to the teacher and the lineage is at the heart of guru yoga.

 

Does connection need a purpose?

It's my position that connection is our natural tendency and our natural state.

The ills of the world, IMO, are largely due to a lack of connection.

Life in samsara is nothing other than a lack of connection.

 

For sure the connection between teacher and student is intended to and does help and support spiritual growth and realization on many levels. There is also value in connection outside of spiritual objectives, however, when you boil it down it seems that anything related to openness and connection are ultimately useful in our spiritual lives.

Nice 👍 

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Thank you again very much for your responses.  So by energetic connection you meant close, supportive and loving relationship?  Like an open and sharing connection that is how we should all naturally relate (but often don't) and not some sort of "energetic transmission" or any sort of "mind to mind" or "energy body" to "energy body" thing?

 

A close, supportive, and loving relationship are certainly components of an energetic connection. 

 

We all seem to be in some degree of agreement that there is a level of foundational connectivity, whether we refer to it in terms of non-duality, oneness, God, whatever... That is the basis for my comment that our natural state is connected and that disconnection is the source of our troubles.

 

People often use the word 'energy' loosely, particularly in the New Age (not using that as a negative), and I sometimes wonder precisely what they are referring to. Like Miroku, I try to use the "E" word with some degree of caution. This is in part due to my scientific background. Spiritual practice and growth has expanded my understanding of what can be labelled energy but to answer your final question, I would need to know precisely what you are referring to by "energetic transmission" whether that be between minds or energy bodies. You seem to draw a line of distinction between "energetic transmission" of minds/energies bodies, and things like closeness, love, support, openness, and sharing. For me, these are all powerful forms of energetic transmission involving the mind and energy body.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

A close, supportive, and loving relationship are certainly components of an energetic connection. 

 

We all seem to be in some degree of agreement that there is a level of foundational connectivity, whether we refer to it in terms of non-duality, oneness, God, whatever... That is the basis for my comment that our natural state is connected and that disconnection is the source of our troubles.

 

People often use the word 'energy' loosely, particularly in the New Age (not using that as a negative), and I sometimes wonder precisely what they are referring to. Like Miroku, I try to use the "E" word with some degree of caution. This is in part due to my scientific background. Spiritual practice and growth has expanded my understanding of what can be labelled energy but to answer your final question, I would need to know precisely what you are referring to by "energetic transmission" whether that be between minds or energy bodies. You seem to draw a line of distinction between "energetic transmission" of minds/energies bodies, and things like closeness, love, support, openness, and sharing. For me, these are all powerful forms of energetic transmission involving the mind and energy body.

 

Yes, it is fair to say that I am trying to draw the distinction. Closeness, love, support, etc... are all very important and valuable in relationships, but not what I meant.  Maybe think of what I am trying to describe as the energy "underneath" or driving the emotional aspects you are describing. In our broader the discussion, you could probably just simplify it down to whether it is possible to share an actual "direct taste" or not. In a way trying to define how much a guru can "help" in your lineage/tradition.

 

Thank you again (and everyone else) for the discussion. To me this is a very interesting topic.

 

p.s. I also have no problem with the New Age comment. My thoughts on all of this stuff are pretty radical. :) 

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, it is fair to say that I am trying to draw the distinction. Closeness, love, support, etc... are all very important and valuable in relationships, but not what I meant.  Maybe think of what I am trying to describe as the energy "underneath" or driving the emotional aspects you are describing. In our broader the discussion, you could probably just simplify it down to whether it is possible to share an actual "direct taste" or not. In a way trying to define how much a guru can "help" in your lineage/tradition.

 

Thank you again (and everyone else) for the discussion. To me this is a very interesting topic.

 

p.s. I also have no problem with the New Age comment. My thoughts on all of this stuff are pretty radical. :) 

 

I believe the traditional position would be no - it is not possible to share an actual direct taste.

 

 

 

 

 

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