Turnings of the Wheel of the Dharma

[C T]

As long as there is merit, buddhas and Dharma will continue to appear in multiple forms to benefit beings. Where merit is exhausted, misunderstanding takes root. 

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, C T said:

As long as there is merit, buddhas and Dharma will continue to appear in multiple forms to benefit beings.

...

 

Very well said. Thank you.

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I'm not sure why you are focussing on Dzogchen as this is (as far as Buddhism is concerned) a sub-set of Nyingmapa teachings and thus generally speaking a Mahayana teaching.  However the Dalai Lama himself who is a scholar of Buddhism has shown a link for Dzogchen back through Madhyamaka traditions to sutra - here is a brief summary of that position:

 

The text then goes on to say:

 

My point above is that western scholars have now, or are beginning to realise that the interpretation of the historical narrative of the development of say Mahayana, is not a split or schism but a reemphasis of something that was already there - and thus more closely accords with Buddhism's own account that all three turnings of the wheel are the exposition of the Buddha's original teachings and arise because the 'audience' of people living in different social conditions and cultures and with different personal karmic tendencies had changed.  So that teachings which were formally esoteric became popularised in order to benefit sentient beings.  And that this happened gradually and did not comprise some kind of shift or change in the world or level of consciousness of beings and so on.

 

My point is really that historians (and philosophers) do not really understand what a teaching or transmission is. They have no concept at all and only attempt to translate and understand written words, not the meaning underneath them. I believe these words from a living Dzogchen master more accurately describe it...

 

The Vairo Drabag, which is believed to relate an ancient tradition, speaks of the transmission of the teaching through four kayas or dimensions: mensions: svabhavikakaya, or dimension of the fundamental nature, dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, and the secret kaya, or dimension (gsang ba'i sku). However, this subdivision takes into consideration only the transmission of the Tantra and Dzogchen teachings.

 

II. THE TWELVE PRIMORDIAL TEACHERS The traditional texts assert that the promulgation of the Dzogchen teaching is not limited to the human world. For example, the tantra The All-surpassing Sound (sGra thal 'gyur) explains that it is found in no less than thirteen solar systems (thal ba) as well as our own, and describes scribes minutely, albeit cryptically, the location of these worlds and the characteristics of the beings that inhabit them. Much better known, on the other hand, is the tradition that states that Garab Dorje was preceded by twelve teachers (ston pa bcu gnyis), described in the texts as nirmanakaya manifestations of the primordial Buddha Vajradhara.

-The Supreme Source

 

Additionally, to your point that they were all simply the teachings of Buddha in his lifetime...

 

Garab Dorje is the teacher who transmitted the teachings and tantras of Dzogchen currently available to us. All the sources unanimously declare that he was born after Buddha Sakyamuni's parinirvana, or final passing, although they do not agree on the precise date. In any case, the majority set this great teacher's birth about three hundred and sixty years after the Buddha's death, in the second century B.C.E.

-The Supreme Source

 

[Apech]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

My point is really that historians (and philosophers) do not really understand what a teaching or transmission is. They have no concept at all and only attempt to translate and understand written words, not the meaning underneath them. I believe these words from a living Dzogchen master more accurately describe it...

 

The Vairo Drabag, which is believed to relate an ancient tradition, speaks of the transmission of the teaching through four kayas or dimensions: mensions: svabhavikakaya, or dimension of the fundamental nature, dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, and the secret kaya, or dimension (gsang ba'i sku). However, this subdivision takes into consideration only the transmission of the Tantra and Dzogchen teachings.

 

II. THE TWELVE PRIMORDIAL TEACHERS The traditional texts assert that the promulgation of the Dzogchen teaching is not limited to the human world. For example, the tantra The All-surpassing Sound (sGra thal 'gyur) explains that it is found in no less than thirteen solar systems (thal ba) as well as our own, and describes scribes minutely, albeit cryptically, the location of these worlds and the characteristics of the beings that inhabit them. Much better known, on the other hand, is the tradition that states that Garab Dorje was preceded by twelve teachers (ston pa bcu gnyis), described in the texts as nirmanakaya manifestations of the primordial Buddha Vajradhara.

-The Supreme Source

 

Additionally, to your point that they were all simply the teachings of Buddha in his lifetime...

 

Garab Dorje is the teacher who transmitted the teachings and tantras of Dzogchen currently available to us. All the sources unanimously declare that he was born after Buddha Sakyamuni's parinirvana, or final passing, although they do not agree on the precise date. In any case, the majority set this great teacher's birth about three hundred and sixty years after the Buddha's death, in the second century B.C.E.

-The Supreme Source

 

 

 

This makes no difference to what I am saying.  Garab Dorje may have been born after the paranirvana of the Buddha but he was a Buddhist teacher from Uddinaya (probably Swat Valley) where also Padhmasmbhava hailed from - there are very many Buddhist masters both Indian and Tibetan in the lineage of Mahayana (and Tantrayana) ... so?  Most of them are given mythic origins and histories ... so?   Many, many created new sadhanas and so on by interaction with sambhogakaya deities ... all part of the third turning of the wheel (or the fourth if you care to enumerate it differently).

 

I am sure historians and academics do not understand transmission ... but some of the quotes I gave are from Buddhist practitioners including the Dalai Lama is it your position that they don't either?

 

 

[Apech]

Here by the way is the part immediately following your quote from Supreme Source on the life of Garab Dorje, which indicates he was part of the Mahayana and so part of the third turning (i.e. stress buddha-nature).

 

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, Apech said:

Here by the way is the part immediately following your quote from Supreme Source on the life of Garab Dorje, which indicates he was part of the Mahayana and so part of the third turning (i.e. stress buddha-nature).

 

 

I guess I don't get your point here. That is like saying that Jesus was simply Jewish (sorry couldn't help myself  ).

 

Brand new stuff for those who had greater capacity, after the original physical Buddha had died. Or you could simply say back in the old days, the company did some advanced research and development. Coming out with some new products for those who had the capacity to use them. 

 

As CT said, new Buddhas with new stuff to help the sentient beings...

 

And there is a lot of good and new tech out there now...  

[Jetsun]

I thought the new teachings, like Terma discoveries, are for times of great need when the Dharma is dying out or there is great suffering, rather than to be discovered when the human capacity to receive them has been improved.

[Apech]

It might be helpful at this point to clarify the nature of the Third Turning of the Wheel - and appropriately including a quote from a Dzogchen teacher:

 

Quote

 

The main focus of the third turning is Buddha Nature. The doctrine of Buddha Nature is described by the Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche this way:

 

"This [doctrine] declares that the fundamental nature of mind is utterly pure and primordially in the state of buddhahood. It is the absolute buddha. It has never changed from beginningless time. Its essence is wisdom and compassion that is inconceivably profound and vast."

 

Because all beings are fundamentally Buddha Nature, all beings may realize enlightenment.

 

Reb Anderson calls the third turning "a logical approach that is based on the refutation of logic."

 

"In the third turning, we find a presentation of the first turning that is in accord with the second turning," Reb Anderson says. "We are offered a systematic path and a conceptual approach that are free of self."

 

 

It is true that each Turning had a different emphasis eg. (1) non-self, (2) emptiness, (3) buddha-nature - and that you can further break down different schools within each Turning which give their own explanations.

 

However - they all point to the nature of the Buddha's awakening - and as Mr. Anderson says 'In the third turning, we find a presentation of the first turning that is in accord with the second turning' - they are all consistent with each other in this respect.

 

[Apech]

41 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

I thought the new teachings, like Terma discoveries, are for times of great need when the Dharma is dying out or there is great suffering, rather than to be discovered when the human capacity to receive them has been improved.

 

 

Norbu describes it very well - (as you would expect) that both are teachings of the Buddha for people of different capacities - in other words for different audiences.  At about 25 mins in or so.

 

 

[Jetsun]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

Norbu describes it very well - (as you would expect) that both are teachings of the Buddha for people of different capacities - in other words for different audiences.  At about 25 mins in or so.

 

 

 

Yeah I was commenting more on the time period of when they are discovered, that the reason why they are discovered isn't that the world has evolved or become lighter.

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Jetsun said:

 

Yeah I was commenting more on the time period of when they are discovered, that the reason why they are discovered isn't that the world has evolved or become lighter.

 

OK.

[C T]

Btw for clarification purposes, merit in the context mentioned above is not brownie points. There's no salvation involved in Buddhism. The Buddha never claimed that beings need help or are in need of redemption.

 

Merit therefore is akin to affinity. 

 

Some beings have a capacity to benefit greatly from light Dharma exposure, while some others may enjoy living in the delusion of being practitioners/masters of advanced 'stuff' but in truth have little or nil authentic understanding and practice. So those in the former category can be said to have found affinity with the 3rd turning, regardless if they are relatively new to Buddhist practice, while those in the latter group are yet to even enter the path of the first turning despite their illusions of advancement. 

[dawei]

1 hour ago, C T said:

Btw for clarification purposes,

 

I'm glad you clarified as I was going to ask you to explain more.  Thanks

 

For the topic in general... there is talk of the 3 turnings and I wanted to point out another time when '6' was mentioned by Buddha.

 

D.T. Suzuki has given the west a great deal of exposure to Zen (I know not the topic but the similarity is interesting)... He questioned in his Zen Buddhism (selected writings) why the robe and bowl was not handed down after Hui neng.   He must of missed Hui neng explaining that in his Platform Sutra.

 

My memory is, Hui neng said that Buddha talked of 6 to come (can't recall the exact comment), and Hui neng interpreted his title as Sixth Patriarch of Zen to mean the robe was no longer needed to pass down; new teachings can emerge, which he was the next major shift... till the next shift of koans.

 

I'm not trying to compare anything to Zen other than how someone interpreted a counting number from Buddha.  Seems to fit to me that, as Apech has said,  forth change if you want.... but it seems no more counting is needed.    After the three foundations are developed, new developments now unfold.  

 

[Apech]

6 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I'm glad you clarified as I was going to ask you to explain more.  Thanks

 

For the topic in general... there is talk of the 3 turnings and I wanted to point out another time when '6' was mentioned by Buddha.

 

D.T. Suzuki has given the west a great deal of exposure to Zen (I know not the topic but the similarity is interesting)... He questioned in his Zen Buddhism (selected writings) why the robe and bowl was not handed down after Hui neng.   He must of missed Hui neng explaining that in his Platform Sutra.

 

My memory is, Hui neng said that Buddha talked of 6 to come (can't recall the exact comment), and Hui neng interpreted his title as Sixth Patriarch of Zen to mean the robe was no longer needed to pass down; new teachings can emerge, which he was the next major shift... till the next shift of koans.

 

I'm not trying to compare anything to Zen other than how someone interpreted a counting number from Buddha.  Seems to fit to me that, as Apech has said,  forth change if you want.... but it seems no more counting is needed.    After the three foundations are developed, new developments now unfold.  

 

 

 

Zen of course is the same word as Jana (Pali), Ch'an (Chinese) and Zen in Japan all from Sanskrit Dhyana meaning meditative absorption - and therefore a yogacara or citta-mattra school of Buddhism, because it relies primarily on the nature of Mind and buddha-nature.  It was the yogacara who coined the 3 Turnings of the Wheel in order to attribute their tradition and all others back to the Buddha himself.

 

 

[allinone]

10 hours ago, C T said:

Some beings have a capacity to benefit greatly from light Dharma exposure, while some others may enjoy living in the delusion of being practitioners/masters of advanced 'stuff' but in truth have little or nil authentic understanding and practice. So those in the former category can be said to have found affinity with the 3rd turning, regardless if they are relatively new to Buddhist practice, while those in the latter group are yet to even enter the path of the first turning despite their illusions of advancement. 

 

there is three turns of the salter and at second turn its too salty and can't take it anymore and leave.

[allinone]

at third turn its you are alone and your friends too get toxic towards you, unless they see the golden hue get attached to the riches.

[allinone]

first turn is you just need be quiet and go do it.

[C T]

5 hours ago, allinone said:

 

there is three turns of the salter and at second turn its too salty and can't take it anymore and leave.

Speaking of saltiness, there is an anology about the 'one taste' of all the oceans. Quite appropriate in the context of the three turnings. 

[allinone]

41 minutes ago, C T said:

Speaking of saltiness, there is an anology about the 'one taste' of all the oceans. Quite appropriate in the context of the three turnings. 

 

also we need see two times before to have a third as a objective knowledge.

[steve]

22 hours ago, Jetsun said:

I thought the new teachings, like Terma discoveries, are for times of great need when the Dharma is dying out or there is great suffering, rather than to be discovered when the human capacity to receive them has been improved.

 

That is certainly one situation in which terma have been discovered or received.

There is also the aspect that terma have been hidden for protection during times of war and persecution (the latter is particularly applicable to Bönpos). These may then be discovered or revealed in times of peace when we are again free to practice the Dharma.

[dawei]

17 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Zen of course is the same word as Jana (Pali), Ch'an (Chinese) and Zen in Japan all from Sanskrit Dhyana meaning meditative absorption - and therefore a yogacara or citta-mattra school of Buddhism, because it relies primarily on the nature of Mind and buddha-nature.  It was the yogacara who coined the 3 Turnings of the Wheel in order to attribute their tradition and all others back to the Buddha himself.

 

 

 

Does this relate to the Three Disciplines ?

 

[Apech]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Does this relate to the Three Disciplines ?

 

 

 

I would use 'Three Disciplines' to refer to wisdom or understanding, morality and meditation - which as far as I know is common to all schools of Buddhism.  In other words study to understand the View, practice the precepts and mind training, and meditate.

[Fa Xin]

Good thread 😊

Edited September 20, 2017 by Fa Xin