Daoism and Buddhism's Differences

[C T]

1 hour ago, Kongming said:

Perhaps you should start a new thread on the topic on the nature of the Dao, yinyang, time, etc. since it is off topic here. That said I remain convinced of my own position outlined yesterday, so as far as me personally we will have to settle on agreeing to disagree.

 

Returning to the topic, it also seems that Daoism and Buddhism share differences regarding sacred numbers. In Daoism sacred numerology plays a large role whereas in Buddhism it plays a considerably lesser role as far as I've studied it. Not only is sacred numerology more important in Daoism, the two traditions are different in what numbers they consider sacred. Daoism closely mirrors Western esotericism in this regard, with emphasis on 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, whereas in Buddhism it seems 8 and 10 received greater emphasis.

Buddhist sacred numbers include 4, 5 and 108

[voidisyinyang]

I have a quote stating that is why Taoism is different than Buddhism - because of the Tai Chi as complementary opposites.

 

 

Quote

 

  3 hours ago, Kongming said:

Perhaps you should start a new thread on the topic on the nature of the Dao, yinyang, time, etc. since it is off topic here.

 

 

 

You now claim that is "off topic." Hilarious!

 

Censorship is your only way of even acknowledging the information I have posted in this thread.

 

Nice "thread" dude!

 

Quote

Taiji as wuji is not a primordial material substance - it is also different from the Buddhist notion of emptiness. It is the ground-providing principle behind phenomena that allow transformations in the phenomenal world to occur.

 

So how is that off-topic again?

 

Censorship is hilarious!

 

That quote is explaining the symbol that Pregadio uses in the essay that you cited!

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

3 hours ago, Kongming said:

Daoism closely mirrors Western esotericism in this regard, with emphasis on 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, whereas in Buddhism it seems 8 and 10 received greater emphasis.

 

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

 

I have detailed precisely why Daoism in now way "closely mirrors" western esotericism as Plato is based on symmetric math from irrational magnitude.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

5 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

This is not the meaning of complementary opposites.

 

So 2=C while F=3=G at the same time.

 

It is not a coin - but a Klein Bottle - two moebius strips put together that can not be visualized, fundamentally since it's the 4th dimension of space but as time - noncommutative phase.

 

You can read my pdf for images to help clarify things for you.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

I apologize in advance Kong Ming for temporary derailment but this for your tormentor. I would add but you seem to have everything under control.

 

 

Tao as the ultimately real is the essence of Tao. Though the essence and the function of Tao cannot be really separated in Lao Tzu's thought, we shall treat them separately as much as possible. There are many descriptions of Tao in the Tao Te Ching. One important statement about the essence of Tao is found in chapter 32: "Tao is constant (ch'ang), nameless (wu-ming), and simple like an uncarved wood (p'u)." It is however necessary to have a general understanding of Lao Tzu's thought as a whole in order to get the full meaning of the statement. From the philosophical point of view, the most fundamental concept expressing the essence of Tao is undoubtedly that of wu, “ not having" or "non-being." In an important sense, it can be translated as "emptiness." In other words, Tao as the ultimately real is wu, nonbeing, not-having-anything, or empty. It is on this basis that the "constancy," "namelessness," and "simplicity" of Tao should be understood. Logically speaking, wu is the contradictory term of yu (being, having-something, or fullness). Apparently in recognition of the logical nature of these terms, Lao Tzu says in chapter 2, "Yu and wu produce each other."13 This means that when one has the conception of yu, there will be the conception of wu; and vice versa. They are conceptually relative to each other. For convenience we shall use the English terms "being" and "non-being" as the translations of yu and wu respectively. It is our next task to examine the meanings of the terms in Lao Tzu's philosophy

[Kongming]

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

 

I have detailed precisely why Daoism in now way "closely mirrors" western esotericism as Plato is based on symmetric math from irrational magnitude.

 

 

 

Just posted this in another thread actually:

 

Renaissance esotericists also used number schemas to elaborate their cosmological symbolism encoded in archetypal patterns of three, seven, nine and twelve, as do many of the Daoist masters, particularly using schemas of three, five, nine, and twelve.

 

From: 

 

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeVI/Dao.htm

 

Though while they match on 3, 9, 12 (these were also sacred in non-Platonic influenced cultures such as that of the pre-Christian Celts and Norsemen), Daoists have placed more emphasis on 5 (due to Wuxing.)

 

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

You now claim that is "off topic." Hilarious!

 

Censorship is your only way of even acknowledging the information I have posted in this thread.

 

Nice "thread" dude!

 

Your viewpoint on the matter is on topic and I am glad you shared it, an in depth debate on the nature of emptiness and time in Daoism is not related to the topic. Aside from not being related to the topic, I am not interested in continuing the debate as I've already shared and argued my perspective and remain convinced of it.  If you feel that my view is incorrect that's fine, but again we'll have to agree to disagree.

[voidisyinyang]

I've taken my evidence directly to the source - Pregadio - at least he replies to me to engage with the evidence.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

31 minutes ago, Kongming said:

 

Just posted this in another thread actually:

 

Renaissance esotericists also used number schemas to elaborate their cosmological symbolism encoded in archetypal patterns of three, seven, nine and twelve, as do many of the Daoist masters, particularly using schemas of three, five, nine, and twelve.

 

From: 

 

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeVI/Dao.htm

 

Though while they match on 3, 9, 12 (these were also sacred in non-Platonic influenced cultures such as that of the pre-Christian Celts and Norsemen), Daoists have placed more emphasis on 5 (due to Wuxing.)

 

 

Your viewpoint on the matter is on topic and I am glad you shared it, an in depth debate on the nature of emptiness and time in Daoism is not related to the topic. Aside from not being related to the topic, I am not interested in continuing the debate as I've already shared and argued my perspective and remain convinced of it.  If you feel that my view is incorrect that's fine, but again we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

That quote you give is a claim that cites John Henderson's book.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=c9-fVey0bP0C&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=Henderson,+John.+The+Development+and+Decline+of+Chinese+Cosmology&source=bl&ots=if1wtWt0DK&sig=o6eAXbR-Ome7xh_s5ynlO0kI03s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXsLS0wOHUAhXmxVQKHd1ODPA4ChDoAQgnMAA#v=onepage&q=Henderson%2C John. The Development and Decline of Chinese Cosmology&f=false

 

The book is not based on real Taoist training -
 

Quote

"Correlative cosmology is a literal reading by lesser minds of a metaphor.

 

 

So to try to conflate Taoism with Western traditions - you need some more evidence.

 

And besides - this is supposed to be a discussion of the difference with Buddhism.

 

Yet when I post a quote and discussion about the difference between Buddhist Emptiness - you claim it is just a discussion of Taoism.

 

Then try to censor it.

 

Hilarious.

 

You are projecting wrong views onto Taoism.

 

You claim that the qi "emanates" from the Dao but you have absolutely no evidence for this.

 

I have meanwhile provided lots of evidence to the contrary.

 

You claim there is some static timeless immortality - but you have no evidence for this.

 

Meanwhile your own source states that the Yang Shen "roams" in timelesness - how is that possible if it is a timeless realm - you can't "roam" in a timeless realm? haha.

 

The answer is just as I have explained but you fail to understand it since you don't want to understand real Taoist philosophy.

 

So you have posted a fake thread because you refuse to engage with the information I have presented and then claim it is not about the difference between Buddhism and Taoism when I just gave you quote that it is.

 

Then you instead say Taoism is like Western esotericism when Platonic philosphy is based on symmetric math - that is not Western esotericism.

 

So now you say o.k. before Plato - like I said show some more evidence. That article you cite is just general numbers with no real meaning about them.

 

Nice attempt to dodge the very subject of your own thread.

 

Hilarious.

 

 

[Kongming]

Just now, voidisyinyang said:

 

That quote you give is a claim that cites John Henderson's book.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=c9-fVey0bP0C&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=Henderson,+John.+The+Development+and+Decline+of+Chinese+Cosmology&source=bl&ots=if1wtWt0DK&sig=o6eAXbR-Ome7xh_s5ynlO0kI03s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXsLS0wOHUAhXmxVQKHd1ODPA4ChDoAQgnMAA#v=onepage&q=Henderson%2C John. The Development and Decline of Chinese Cosmology&f=false

 

The book is not based on real Taoist training -

 

And? It is well known that those numbers are sacred in Daoism and that they therefore match various sacred numbers in Western esotericism, whatever the ultimate reasoning or origin of the two sets. That they are related is secondary to the primary point, which is that Daoism's numbers and emphasis on numbers differs from Buddhism.

 

 

Just now, voidisyinyang said:

You claim that the qi "emanates" from the Dao but you have absolutely no evidence for this.

 

Sigh....why are you so insistent to debate? I'd like not to derail, but for amusement here we go...a brief search turns up:

 

Komjathy:

 

"Introduction to World Religions: Communities and Cultures":

 

 

"Taoism and the Arts of China":

 

 

From http://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/ill_yuanqi.html:

 

"The Original Breath (yuanqi) issued from the Dao." 

 

From the thesis "DAOIST ELEMENTS IN CAI GUO-QIANG’S INOPPORTUNE AND HEAD ON" (http://www.mhsl.uab.edu/dt/2011m/wockenfuss.pdf):

 

"Translated as meaning “the way,” Dao is believed to have begun as an empty stillness out of which the primal energy yuan qi emerged. “For many cosmic eons,” this energy swirled in a state of chaos called hundun, eventually forming into the corresponding forces of yin and yang. From this energy the universe was formed, encompassing the force of qi. Described as energy, qi permeates all matter, thus matter and energy are interchangeable, as expressed in the basic principles of nuclear physics.

 

Though Daoism is a diverse tradition with many viewpoints throughout its long history, so perhaps there have been some that shared the perspective you are arguing for.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Kongming said:

 

And? It is well known that those numbers are sacred in Daoism and that they therefore match various sacred numbers in Western esotericism, whatever the ultimate reasoning or origin of the two sets. That they are related is secondary to the primary point, which is that Daoism's numbers and emphasis on numbers differs from Buddhism.

 

 

 

Sigh....why are you so insistent to debate? I'd like not to derail, but for amusement here we go...a brief search turns up:

 

Komjathy:

 

"Introduction to World Religions: Communities and Cultures":

 

 

"Taoism and the Arts of China":

 

 

From http://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/ill_yuanqi.html:

 

"The Original Breath (yuanqi) issued from the Dao." 

 

From the thesis "DAOIST ELEMENTS IN CAI GUO-QIANG’S INOPPORTUNE AND HEAD ON" (http://www.mhsl.uab.edu/dt/2011m/wockenfuss.pdf):

 

"Translated as meaning “the way,” Dao is believed to have begun as an empty stillness out of which the primal energy yuan qi emerged. “For many cosmic eons,” this energy swirled in a state of chaos called hundun, eventually forming into the corresponding forces of yin and yang. From this energy the universe was formed, encompassing the force of qi. Described as energy, qi permeates all matter, thus matter and energy are interchangeable, as expressed in the basic principles of nuclear physics.

 

Though Daoism is a diverse tradition with many viewpoints throughout its long history, so perhaps there have been some that shared the perspective you are arguing for.

 

 

 

You already posted a Komjathy quote stating that the Dao=qi.

 

Do you want me to repost if for you - that will be the 3rd time that quote gets posted in case you forgot.

 

Your second quote is Stephen Little - but you cut the quote off.

 

So he is a "curator" of Asian Art.

 

If you included the rest of the quote - he refers to the same Zongmi image of the earlier Tai Chi that posted - the one without the "hub" of Emptiness.

 

The third quote you give the link to - and so I read the link.

 

In fact it's another quote of Stephen Little from the same book! haha. So again he's an art curator. Not exactly qigong or neidan training.

 

"Introduction to World Religions: Communities and Cultures":

 

So that is written by Mark Meulenbeld - a Ph.D. at my Alma Mater - UW-Madison. His specialty is folk taoism and martial arts.

 

So refers to the three pure qi gods - of course they have to "emanate" from the Dao. haha.

 

How else could they be three different gods?

 

So that is religious Daoism based on religious gods.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

I got a response from Pregadio - he has not read yet the 2013 essay by the Korean philosophy professor on the real meaning of Taiji as wuji.

 

Also Pregadio said he doesn't know why the earlier Tai Chi doesn't have the "hub" as the Emptiness.

 

So he said he would get back to me. We shall see what he says.

 

I posted his responses so far on my blog http://ecoechoinvasives.blogspot.com

 

 

[Kongming]

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

In fact it's another quote of Stephen Little from the same book! haha. So again he's an art curator. Not exactly qigong or neidan training.

 

 

 

Whether he is an art curator or not doesn't prevent him from having sound understanding of what the source texts say. Are you ignoring where the Xuanlan renniao shan jingtu states that yuanqi issued, i.e. emanated, from the Dao or earlier in the thread where Cheng Xuanying states that the original qi is born from the Dao?

 

Either way, it is the case that Daoism is a diverse tradition with diverse perspectives on various topics without central dogmas in the way of Christianity or Islam and thus there may be different views on cosmogensis and the relation of hundun or yuanqi or the universe to the Dao. Hence differing opinions among Daoists themselves on Wuji/Taiji, Dao and Yuanqi, etc.

 

Furthermore what I've been saying doesn't make the yuanqi or the One or the universe not the Dao due to being an emanation of the Dao in its Absolute aspect. They are two facets of one unified reality, like sun and sunlight or ocean and ocean wave. Though it is quite clear that Daoism has dealt with metaphysics or 性而上学 "xingershang xue" and the metaphysical is precisely what is beyond the physical, namely beyond space-time. Or as AK Coomaraswamy once had it,

 

"To say, for example, that “I am a pantheist” is merely to confess that “I am not a metaphysician,” just as to say that “two and two make five” would be to confess “I am not a mathematician.”

[voidisyinyang]

3 hours ago, Kongming said:

 

Quote

The Dao, in its ultimate and Absolute aspect, is metaphysically prior to or above this in timeless purity and empty non-being (wu)

 

So this pretty much sums up your wrong view of Daoism.

 

Quote

The standard translation "the ultimate nonbeing" (Chan, 1963; Neville 1980) or "Ultimate of Nonbeing" (Zhang, 2002) has actually reversed the Chinese word order, and renders it as jiwu - the ultimate wu.

 

Quote

However even within the Daoist tradition, Wang Bi's interpretation of Laozi's wuji (Chapter 28) is simply "inexhaustible" (wuqiong), and this shows clearly he did not identify wuji with wu itself.

Quote

 

Nevertheless, this does not mean that there was a time when Taiji did not exist....Taiji was initially boundless because its existence was beyond both space and time.

 

Quote

Taiji was initially just one qi, which then separated into yang and yin through motion and rest. ...it was a common view ...to regard Taiji as one qi - before yin and yang are divided.

Quote

vacuums have energy and energy is convertible into mass is to deny that vacuums are empty....vacuums are far from empty. Understood in this light, ...taiji is much more intelligble and plausible.

Quote

...Taiji, the supreme ultimate, is the absolute self-sufficient and self-contained perfection. Exactly because it is relative to nothing else, it is identical with the Boundless (Wuji).

Quote

...Taiji is simply Being itself; hence it is both supremely massive and boundless (wuji).

 

https://jeelooliu.net/

Professor of Philosophy

 

Department of Philosophy

 

California State University, Fullerton

ACPA (The Association of Chinese Philosophers in North America):

President, 2010-2012

 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=jBknDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=laozi+chapter+28+wuji&source=bl&ots=h2LmY9ecpA&sig=ktn97OMv1i2-9EVSVJ3YW6Y-PuQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyvNK2heLUAhXpzlQKHTorCiUQ6AEIPjAE#v=onepage&q=laozi chapter 28 wuji&f=false

Neo-Confucianism: Metaphysics, Mind, and Morality JeeLoo Liu John Wiley & Sons, May 19, 2017

Edited June 29, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[roger]

I don't mean this at all judgmentally, but a lot of this stuff just seems too complicated to me.

 

Remember that Taoism emphasizes simplicity.

 

Of course, the problem could be that I'm just not smart enough to understand all this stuff

[voidisyinyang]

10 minutes ago, roger said:

I don't mean this at all judgmentally, but a lot of this stuff just seems too complicated to me.

 

Remember that Taoism emphasizes simplicity.

 

Of course, the problem could be that I'm just not smart enough to understand all this stuff

 

We learn the commutative principle in 10th grade: A x B = B x A. This is incorrect as the foundation of reality.

 

The commutative property was the origin of irrational magnitude and symmetric math, as the Greek Miracle.

 

So it's not that you're not smart enough.

 

You just have to unlearn a lot and really think about basics.

 

So think of music theory.

 

1 is C, 2 is C as the octave, and 3 is G, as the overtone harmonic, but at the same time 3 is F as the subharmonic.

 

This was covered up by Plato and Archytas.

 

So in music theory it means 3/2 as the Perfect Fifth is allowed but NOT 2/3 as the Perfect Fifth. Empirically they are both the Perfect Fifth, C to F is 2/3 and C to G is 3/2.

 

But Archytas needed his equation (Arithmetic Mean x Harmonic Mean equals Geometric Mean Squared). So he could only use fractions with value greater than 1.

 

So the Perfect Fourth is 4/3 as C to F just from "doubling" 2/3 - and thereby concealing and covering up the truth of noncommutative phase.

 

So then 3/2 x 4/3 = 2 (which is geometric mean squared).

 

So then 9/8 cubed = the square root of 2 as the tritone or Devil's Interval.

 

That is the secret of the square root of two - you don't learn that the Pythagorean Theorem is from WRONG music theory that hides the truth of infinite complementary opposites resonance.

 

I have more details on my blog http://ecoechoinvasives.blogspot.com

 

So this secret of complementary opposites from music theory was rediscovered in quantum physics as "time-frequency uncertainty" - I have quoted the mathematician in this thread about 2, 3, infinity being "noncommutative" from music theory.

 

The "noncommutative" part means that it's in 2 places at the same time as complementary opposites - and it is also quantum entanglement.

 

So that is the secret of the Tai Chi - it is before spacetime but creates spacetime and energy-mass from quantum entanglement that is noncommutative.

 

This is now proven by science - it's called EPR=ER.

 

In other words we exist within micro quantum virtual black holes every where as the ether or yuan qi that is the Tai Chi as the fundamental foundation of reality - eternal change as harmonization.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[roger]

6 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

We learn the commutative principle in 10th grade: A x B = B x A. This is incorrect as the foundation of reality.

 

The commutative property was the origin of irrational magnitude and symmetric math, as the Greek Miracle.

 

So it's not that you're not smart enough.

 

You just have to unlearn a lot and really think about basics.

 

So think of music theory.

 

1 is C, 2 is C as the octave, and 3 is G, as the overtone harmonic, but at the same time 3 is F as the subharmonic.

 

This was covered up by Plato and Archytas.

 

So in music theory it means 3/2 as the Perfect Fifth is allowed but NOT 2/3 as the Perfect Fifth. Empirically they are both the Perfect Fifth, C to F is 2/3 and C to G is 3/2.

 

But Archytas needed his equation (Arithmetic Mean x Harmonic Mean equals Geometric Mean Squared). So he could only use fractions with value greater than 1.

 

So the Perfect Fourth is 4/3 as C to F just from "doubling" 2/3 - and thereby concealing and covering up the truth of noncommutative phase.

 

So then 3/2 x 4/3 = 2 (which is geometric mean squared).

 

So then 9/8 cubed = the square root of 2 as the tritone or Devil's Interval.

 

That is the secret of the square root of two - you don't learn that the Pythagorean Theorem is from WRONG music theory that hides the truth of infinite complementary opposites resonance.

 

I have more details on my blog http://ecoechoinvasives.blogspot.com

 

So this secret of complementary opposites from music theory was rediscovered in quantum physics as "time-frequency uncertainty" - I have quoted the mathematician in this thread about 2, 3, infinity being "noncommutative" from music theory.

 

The "noncommutative" part means that it's in 2 places at the same time as complementary opposites - and it is also quantum entanglement.

 

So that is the secret of the Tai Chi - it is before spacetime but creates spacetime and energy-mass from quantum entanglement that is noncommutative.

 

This is now proven by science - it's called EPR=ER.

 

In other words we exist within micro quantum virtual black holes every where as the ether or yuan qi that is the Tai Chi as the fundamental foundation of reality - eternal change as harmonization.

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing this. It's very interesting.

 

Peace.

[Kongming]

Was reminded of a few other differences between Buddhism and Daoism earlier today:

 

--Astrology has been much more vital to the Daoist tradition than the Buddhist one, both in its normal sense and in astrological imagery playing a large role, traditions of ingesting light/qi from the heavenly bodies, astrological (and seasonal) attunement, etc. As far as I am aware Buddhism has had an astrological tradition but relatively minor in importance and especially compared to Daoism where it has played a large role.

 

--Daoism has, thanks to its connection with and use of the the Yijing/Book of Changes (despite often being seen as a Confucian work), a much larger use and acceptance of divination of various sorts. I believe the Buddha spoke against the use of divination.

 

--Returning to the topic of the body, not only has there been more emphasis and positive perspective of the body in Daoism compared to Buddhism where it is seen as an illusion and suffering, Daoism also has, in line with its view of the body as a microcosm, viewed the body as containing various divine landscapes and reflections of the cosmos, such as the two eyes being the sun and moon, the dantian's being the microcosm of various heavens, containing bodily deities in the same way there are heavenly deities, etc.

[voidisyinyang]

27 minutes ago, Kongming said:

Was reminded of a few other differences between Buddhism and Daoism earlier today:

 

--Astrology has been much more vital to the Daoist tradition than the Buddhist one, both in its normal sense and in astrological imagery playing a large role, traditions of ingesting light/qi from the heavenly bodies, astrological (and seasonal) attunement, etc. As far as I am aware Buddhism has had an astrological tradition but relatively minor in importance and especially compared to Daoism where it has played a large role.

 

--Daoism has, thanks to its connection with and use of the the Yijing/Book of Changes (despite often being seen as a Confucian work), a much larger use and acceptance of divination of various sorts. I believe the Buddha spoke against the use of divination.

 

--Returning to the topic of the body, not only has there been more emphasis and positive perspective of the body in Daoism compared to Buddhism where it is seen as an illusion and suffering, Daoism also has, in line with its view of the body as a microcosm, viewed the body as containing various divine landscapes and reflections of the cosmos, such as the two eyes being the sun and moon, the dantian's being the microcosm of various heavens, containing bodily deities in the same way there are heavenly deities, etc.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin insisted that only the ability to sit in full lotus comfortably - say 2 hours with no pain - shows that the body channels are opening up.

 

In mahayana Buddhism - wind is considered the key element as the qi energy to open up the body channels.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin on listening to the wind as the gateway to inherent emptiness

Quote

If you read through the Surangama Sutra, we read that the Bodhisattva Kuan-shih-yin herself "enters samadhi via hearing, contemplation, and cultivation." ....The Surangama Sutra tells us: "Inherent wind is truly empty, inherent emptiness is truly wind." The ch'i channels in the body are wind. Once you cling to them, you are finished....When we really open up the ch'i channels, then we reach the state where the entire body is light and peaceful and we spontaneously forget the body....the wind element is most important.

So Master Nan criticized Zen Buddhism for not practicing full lotus enough - whereas in Ch'an Buddhism he said that a real practitioner should be able to sit in full lotus in ease for at least 1 day nonstop - and then move on to one week nonstop of full lotus meditation - and then onto longer periods of nonstop full lotus meditation.

 

Whether he stuck to this practice is debatable but that is what his teaching was.

[allinone]

if you can sit comfortable even more in fulllotus position you surely are a master.

 

small wheeler clings to a body.

---

why i need channels open?

what is the sign that my channels are open.

 

the sign can't be full-lotus sitting ability..or how comfortable you are in it. But still there is a right thing in that sentence and that isn't even related to position and how you feel in that position.

 

You can have the same thing when you refuse to eat meat or stop lie etc

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

those parts what would allow me to sit full lotus are too short for me. Is that a hindrance to getting enlightened?

 

i have other position, i can do, what others can't do it because their parts are too short for that.

 

So what is so special with full lotus position? why it is called full lotus? does that need to evoke full lotus state of mind?

 

does full-lotus is other name for "channels open"?

 

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by allinone

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, allinone said:

those parts what would allow me to sit full lotus are too short for me. Is that a hindrance to getting enlightened?

 

i have other position, i can do, what others can't do it because their parts are too short for that.

 

So what is so special with full lotus position? why it is called full lotus? does that need to evoke full lotus state of mind?

 

does full-lotus is other name for "channels open"?

 

 

 

I mentioned this to the qigong master who befriended me - I said, "so and so" says their "body type" does not allow them to get into full lotus. He said that is not true. I said, "another so and so" says they lift weights too much so they can't get into full lotus - he said also not true.

 

When you build up the qi then the body becomes pliable. Full lotus on its own can just be flexibility - whereas full lotus meditation then cycles the energy on its own alchemically to open up the energy channels.

 

You can read my free pdf for other training secrets to open up the energy channels.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

 

Also someone who read my posts on this forum - "forced" themselves into full lotus and injured themselves. So you obviously don't want to hurt yourself.

 

[Sudhamma]

When the joints are no longer pliable but stiffened through the years (result of aging), sitting full lotus or even half-lotus will be torturous and unsuitable as the person will not be able to bring the mind to focus. Sit on a chair instead. The Mind must be flexible if the joints are not.

 

Will sitting full or half-lotus enable the practitioner to achieve 'enlightenment'? I will categorically say No. How you sit, walk or stand do not influence your understanding (of why seek enlightenment in the first place), knowledge (of what is this enlightenment, enlighten from what?), wisdom (to appreciate the nature of the "world"), and mindfulness (to keep the precepts as laid down by Lord Buddha).

Edited July 4, 2017 by Sudhamma

[allinone]

10 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

I mentioned this to the qigong master who befriended me - I said, "so and so" says their "body type" does not allow them to get into full lotus. He said that is not true. I said, "another so and so" says they lift weights too much so they can't get into full lotus - he said also not true.

 

When you build up the qi then the body becomes pliable. Full lotus on its own can just be flexibility - whereas full lotus meditation then cycles the energy on its own alchemically to open up the energy channels.

 

You can read my free pdf for other training secrets to open up the energy channels.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

 

Also someone who read my posts on this forum - "forced" themselves into full lotus and injured themselves. So you obviously don't want to hurt yourself.

 

 

Your sense organs doesn't depend on what position you are or what appearance color the information is.

You think your flesh body lotus-position is true form?

 

0/10

edit: don't bother, you think that i have written my words with a pencil and therefore can erase it with the rubber. Qi doesn't delete physical body.

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by allinone

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, allinone said:

 

Your sense organs doesn't depend on what position you are or what appearance color the information is.

You think your flesh body lotus-position is true form?

 

0/10

edit: don't bother, you think that i have written my words with a pencil and therefore can erase it with the rubber. Qi doesn't delete physical body.

 

 

The form of the formless is the Tai Chi as noncommutative phase harmonics - complementary opposites.

 

My free pdf gives the details with plenty of citations, etc. and lots of images.

 

So the mind fights against the full lotus - so be it. Sure it is not necessary but full lotus demonstrates the channels are open.

 

As http://springforestqigong.com stated if you want to see if someone is a real spiritual master just see how long they can sit in full lotus in ease - no pain, etc.

 

So no it's not "necessary" yet all the people claiming they don't need full lotus are fakes. haha.

 

 

[Jeff]

25 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

The form of the formless is the Tai Chi as noncommutative phase harmonics - complementary opposites.

 

My free pdf gives the details with plenty of citations, etc. and lots of images.

 

So the mind fights against the full lotus - so be it. Sure it is not necessary but full lotus demonstrates the channels are open.

 

As http://springforestqigong.com stated if you want to see if someone is a real spiritual master just see how long they can sit in full lotus in ease - no pain, etc.

 

So no it's not "necessary" yet all the people claiming they don't need full lotus are fakes. haha.

 

 

 

Here is Buddha's view of things like body position and the "trap" it creates...

 

When ideas of body, property and abode are seen, discriminated and cherished in what after all is nothing but what is conceived of the mind itself, and external world is perceived under the aspect of individuality and generality which, however, are not realities and, therefore, neither a gradual nor a simultaneous rising of things is possible. It is only when the mind-system comes into activity and discriminates the manifestations of mind that existence can be said to come into view. For these reasons, Mahamati, you must get rid of notions of graduation and simultaneity in the combination of casual activities.

-Lankavatara Sutra

[voidisyinyang]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Here is Buddha's view of things like body position and the "trap" it creates...

 

When ideas of body, property and abode are seen, discriminated and cherished in what after all is nothing but what is conceived of the mind itself, and external world is perceived under the aspect of individuality and generality which, however, are not realities and, therefore, neither a gradual nor a simultaneous rising of things is possible. It is only when the mind-system comes into activity and discriminates the manifestations of mind that existence can be said to come into view. For these reasons, Mahamati, you must get rid of notions of graduation and simultaneity in the combination of casual activities.

-Lankavatara Sutra

 

Yeah I'm sure that's what YOU want to think. haha.

 

Read Master Nan, Huai-chin - he was a best seller in China and considered a "living Buddha"

 

He says that Buddhism easily gets morphed too easily into "dead tree" Buddhism - too mental and not the necessary body transformations.

 

I already posted the Buddhist quote about the Wind element and the body energy channels.

 

master Nan, Huai-chin makes fun of Buddhists - so how many of you monks can even sit in full lotus for one day nonstop?

 

Huh?

 

So you can post all the fancy b.s. you want.

 

But you can't fake the full lotus.

 

haha. Hilarious.

 

We've had this conversation on this website forever.

 

People fight with their mind all they want. It doesn't matter.

 

I'm not gonna post more Master Nan, Huai-chin quotes.

 

This is a thread on the difference between Buddhism and Daoism - and he bridged that difference, as a Ch'an Master.

 

So if you are interested in the topic of this thread - then read his books.

 

Otherwise practice willful ignorance and live with your self.

 

It's your choice - feel free to do whatever you want.