Old habits that arise after awakening

[Jetsun]

The main principles before and after awakening aren't really any different. Whatever you resist grows, so trying to get rid of the habit just feeds into conflict and control consciousness rather than free awake consciousness. And whatever you put your attention on/invest in grows, so put your attention on awake space rather than conflict and struggle and it burns everything up, which takes a kind of faith to trust that rather than actively try and do something about it.

[Spotless]

Our wording in these matters is important if we are to convey what is happening.

 

On the other hand - readers can sift through it and hopefully see some of the better and poorer choices of words.

But if we keep in mind that this is new territory for many then it is a good idea to take care in wording.

 

 

Micheal80 states:

 

"Self will is gone for a while in ones perception, but if there is openness a curiousity is there and this work will continue. After awakening there is this okness as spotless called it but the curiousity will come back if one does not cling to "being done"."

 

This is a very loose portrayal of what takes place though it was stated with the best of intentions.

If an "I" clings to "being done" then one is already back in illusion - it is not in any way or manner a clinging on for safety sake - it is simply a breath in abidance and stillness expands. If and when you Awaken do not think clinging on to "being done" is good guidance. And do not cling to the idea Of being done.

 

---

 

Jetsun said:

 

"The main principles before and after awakening aren't really any different. Whatever you resist grows, so trying to get rid of the habit just feeds into conflict and control consciousness rather than free awake consciousness. And whatever you put your attention on/invest in grows, so put your attention on awake space rather than conflict and struggle and it burns everything up, which takes a kind of faith to trust that rather than actively try and do something about it. " end quote

 

This is not so much incorrect - but it puts out the patina of an Awake space vs a conflict and struggle space as though it is just a matter of perception. The general advice is reasonably sound from the perspective of one already clearly Awakened but somewhat cloudy for the newly Awakened.

 

In the Awakened state ones attention is not so much that of putting it here and there - that was the illusion to a great degree. Things happen more in an arising - and acclimating to this Beingness - this world unfolding in Now and not future nows is much of what is new - and very very different. A huge stillness abides - it is always with us now - anxiousness is gone (anxiousness is from future - completely a part of the illusion). Most if not all self-consciousness has dropped away, effort has for the most part dropped away (effort is again a future constriction of illusion).

 

Holding, clinging, grasping - not much of this is part of the Awakened - obviously the degree to which this is true varies considerably.

But as one settles into this embodiment they are less and less a part if residuals are increasingly dissipating.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spotless

[Boy]

@dwai (#22): Yes, this is true for the sadhaka and those unlucky (!) jnanis who got self realized before proper preparations and/or with lacking qualifications, but not for one fully established in the truth. For him there is no ball. I think you friends/teachers are basically correct. The analysis you speak of need not be that advanced. Just think - oh, there he went again, that lovable old fool! This is for you the stage of nididhyasana. Working out the kinks.. Lastly, don’t be discouraged if the ball has fallen far - it it always possible (and very easy) to bring it back up again. I do not agree with the doom and gloom at all, but think it’s unhelpful scare tactics. Now get on with it, you lucky bastard! 

[Jeff]

Spotless raises a good point regarding all of the slightly divergent views being presented here and how specifc wording (while still only words) can matter. My view on the matter seems to be different than the broader group of posts, so here it is in my words...

 

Subconscious responses like being described are a sign that one is still trapped in "mind". Random anger responses are also an example of the same thing. All that is perceived is a translation of the underlying energy/light being reflected (or translated) in the mind. When one is truly awake/realized, the underlying energy has no such automatic translation and mental emotional response. It is simply energy and one can respond to it or not. When one is residing in being/light, all such fears, guilt, anger, issues spontaneously dissolve as they arise as there is nothing left for it to "stick to".

 

Or, the entire iceburg melts away even though ones depth in consciousness may not have been deep enough to consciously notice the whole iceberg (of fears/issues).

 

Or, Self is pure and clear, and when Self is realized there is no ongoing perpetuation of "local" habits, issues and fears.

[Spotless]

Spotless raises a good point regarding all of the slightly divergent views being presented here and how specifc wording (while still only words) can matter. My view on the matter seems to be different than the broader group of posts, so here it is in my words...

Subconscious responses like being described are a sign that one is still trapped in "mind". Random anger responses are also an example of the same thing. All that is perceived is a translation of the underlying energy/light being reflected (or translated) in the mind. When one is truly awake/realized, the underlying energy has no such automatic translation and mental emotional response. It is simply energy and one can respond to it or not. When one is residing in being/light, all such fears, guilt, anger, issues spontaneously dissolve as they arise as there is nothing left for it to "stick to".

Or, the entire iceburg melts away even though ones depth in consciousness may not have been deep enough to consciously notice the whole iceberg (of fears/issues).

Or, Self is pure and clear, and when Self is realized there is no ongoing perpetuation of "local" habits, issues and fears.

I think I agree in general with the above, though the use of the words Mind and Subconcious are extremely vague to me.

But I would caution that I do not know of one single teacher - the very brightest highest most enlightened teachers - that are not known to have some residual "random" responses - what is prominent is that they/we are not "in" the response. Not "trapped" in "Mind".

 

From Amma to Jesus - everyone of them has personal stories from disciples or biographers that clearly enunciate some residuals.

Personal stories from volunteers helping their Realized masters surface always with some kinks that are different from the extreme picture of perfection.

Also it is said - CT would probably know the term - but with no residual of self what so ever in the body one would have to be spoon fed and cared for by others. The absolute perfect picture of Awakened Enlightened Realized masters is something that is clear from within but on the outside it is not as concise and is as overstated as it can be understated as we see here in many of these posts.

[Jeff]

I think I agree in general with the above, though the use of the words Mind and Subconcious are extremely vague to me.

But I would caution that I do not know of one single teacher - the very brightest highest most enlightened teachers - that are not known to have some residual "random" responses - what is prominent is that they/we are not "in" the response. Not "trapped" in "Mind".

From Amma to Jesus - everyone of them has personal stories from disciples or biographers that clearly enunciate some residuals.

Personal stories from volunteers helping their Realized masters surface always with some kinks that are different from the extreme picture of perfection.

Also it is said - CT would probably know the term - but with no residual of self what so ever in the body one would have to be spoon fed and cared for by others. The absolute perfect picture of Awakened Enlightened Realized masters is something that is clear from within but on the outside it is not as concise and is as overstated as it can be understated as we see here in many of these posts.

Fair enough on the use of various terms like mind and subconscious. They either make sense to someone or not. That is why I also use things like iceberg analogies. But, I would disagree regarding someone being free and clear meaning that they would not be able to feed themselves. One does not cease to be able to do things, but instead is not whipsawed by autopilot emotional responses and individual desires. The Tao Te Ching describes it well when talking about a sage/immortal.

 

CHAPTER 7

 

Heaven and Earth are still.

Why are Heaven and Earth still?

Because they are detached.

The Sage is detached, so he is like Heaven and Earth;

thus he is at one with all.

Being at one, he performs selfless actions and so he is fulfilled.

[MIchael80]

Hi Spotless!

 

the road to hell is paved with good intentions......phui i am glad mine were "best"

 

Yes, my writting definitly has not the quality of yours.

 

I was not talkling about an "i" clinging. these clinging is a subtle contraction and slows or stops growth in consciousness. It comes because "it" is so absolute and "full stoping" and the seeker being gone that there comes a "this is it". And the conctraction comes in.

 

This phenomena is very common amongst awake people and has even been researched by Jeffrey Martin. Also in Indian texts it is stated that one has to "desire" more for evolution in consciousness to happen. Most awake people stay in their awakeness (they may deepen but stay in the same field) and consider their awakness to be the highest (according to Dr. Martin). A lot of neo-advaita teachers even ridicule further evolution in consciousness yet into the unfolding beyond consciousness.

that is what i meant.

 

Here a good article about clearing post awakening (not in detail but more the overall process) from an very awake friend: http://davidya.ca/2017/04/04/drive-into-flow/

 

best

michael

Edited April 4, 2017 by MIchael80

[Spotless]

Fair enough on the use of various terms like mind and subconscious. They either make sense to someone or not. That is why I also use things like iceberg analogies. But, I would disagree regarding someone being free and clear meaning that they would not be able to feed themselves. One does not cease to be able to do things, but instead is not whipsawed by autopilot emotional responses and individual desires. The Tao Te Ching describes it well when talking about a sage/immortal.

 

CHAPTER 7

 

Heaven and Earth are still.

Why are Heaven and Earth still?

Because they are detached.

The Sage is detached, so he is like Heaven and Earth;

thus he is at one with all.

Being at one, he performs selfless actions and so he is fulfilled.

Whip sawed - I agree - but surprised by them is something that does occur - the body will have certain residual preferences and other habits are still there as is expressed in all Sages and Enlightened Beings.

 

Name your favorite top 10 examples and I am certain I can find examples of what I am talking about. If you are speaking about those that are never known and have never been written about and who are Perfected Ghosts - well then I am sure you may be on to something. But I am speaking of the Saints and Sages both alive and in history - the Pantanjali's and lesser beings of this sort.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Hi Spotless!

 

the road to hell is paved with good intentions......phui i am glad mine were "best"

 

Yes, my writting definitly has not the quality of yours.

 

I was not talkling about an "i" clinging. these clinging is a subtle contraction and slows or stops growth in consciousness. It comes because "it" is so absolute and "full stoping" and the seeker being gone that there comes a "this is it". And the conctraction comes in.

 

This phenomena is very common amongst awake people and has even been researched by Jeffrey Martin. Also in Indian texts it is stated that one has to "desire" more for evolution in consciousness to happen. Most awake people stay in their awakeness (they may deepen but stay in the same field) and consider their awakness to be the highest (according to Dr. Martin). A lot of neo-advaita teachers even ridicule further evolution in consciousness yet into the unfolding beyond consciousness.

that is what i meant.

 

Here a good article about clearing post awakening (not in detail but more the overall process) from an very awake friend: http://davidya.ca/2017/04/04/drive-into-flow/

 

best

michael

Jeffrey Martin is pretty suspect in this regard - he is not Awake and from his interviews it is clear that he is relatively unclear about what he clearly talks about.

 

That said - I was only referring to your exact wording - not extrapolating as to your intended meaning.

 

Regarding the use of the word "desire" - it may seem clear in the translation as to what they (the Indian Texts) mean but it may be more of an openness to continued unfolding - It does not require a "desire" - but the bodies do / may create a certain containment of openness.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spotless

[Jeff]

Whip sawed - I agree - but surprised by them is something that does occur - the body will have certain residual preferences and other habits are still there as is expressed in all Sages and Enlightened Beings.

 

Name your favorite top 10 examples and I am certain I can find examples of what I am talking about. If you are speaking about those that are never known and have never been written about and who are Perfected Ghosts - well then I am sure you may be on to something. But I am speaking of the Saints and Sages both alive and in history - the Pantanjali's and lesser beings of this sort.

Sorry, don't have a list of 10 names for you. Never worried about such things. Perfected Ghosts? Never heard of such a term.

 

I am sure that many have moments of surprise where they are personally effected and something does occur. My point is that in those moments they are not residing in what a would call a state of being/light. They are caught up in the local body-mind and not "free" or "awake", otherwise it would not have bothered them.

 

Or, they hit an iceberg that was too big and deep under the water for their ship to crash through.

 

For fun, maybe another chapter from the Tao Te Ching to highlight my point...

 

CHAPTER 22

 

Yield and overcome.

Bend but follow the flow.

 

Empty yourself of everything, then you can full.

Have little but gain a lot.

Have much and be confused.

 

Therefore the sage embraces the one.

He sets an example to the world.

By not putting on a display, he shines forth.

 

Having no preferences he is open to all.

By never boasting or bragging he can never falter.

 

By knowing this and refusing that,

He knows of the ways of man.

Thus he can avoid a quarrel.

 

The ancient masters were always empty.

This emptiness was always whole.

Yield and overcome and be forever full, and so all things will come to you.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Jeff

[Jetsun]

Everyone gets caught up in conditioning no matter how awake they are. In that moment of being caught they are not awake because part of their being which see's itself as separate has taken over, so if someone asked them in that moment if they are awake the only true answer is no, but a few moments later when that part has lost dominance and the same question is asked then the honest answer is yes. 

[Jeff]

Everyone gets caught up in conditioning no matter how awake they are. In that moment of being caught they are not awake because part of their being which see's itself as separate has taken over, so if someone asked them in that moment if they are awake the only true answer is no, but a few moments later when that part has lost dominance and the same question is asked then the honest answer is yes.

 

Either that, or they were always that ship floating in the water (not the water itself), waiting for that next iceberg to come along. But, such a view is for everyone to decide on their own...

 

Being the water itself is a lot like being the valley of the universe (TTC - Chapter 28).

[Jetsun]

Either that, or they were always that ship floating in the water (not the water itself), waiting for that next iceberg to come along. But, such a view is for everyone to decide on their own...

 

Being the water itself is a lot like being the valley of the universe (TTC - Chapter 28).

Well everyone is already the water itself, they just don't realise it. Even those that realise it the majority of the time can temporarily get caught in the dream that they are something else. I don't see any examples in the real world of anyone who never gets caught in conditioning and separation from time to time, it seems to be the human condition, to fall again and again. From my perspective those people who say they are 100% realised 24/7 are basically hiding out in the transcendent realm as a means of avoiding the difficult realm of their humanity.

[Bindi]

The main principles before and after awakening aren't really any different. Whatever you resist grows, so trying to get rid of the habit just feeds into conflict and control consciousness rather than free awake consciousness. And whatever you put your attention on/invest in grows, so put your attention on awake space rather than conflict and struggle and it burns everything up, which takes a kind of faith to trust that rather than actively try and do something about it.

 

To examine the knots that bind us IME is a necessary first step towards disentanglement. To examine the koshas that keep us in illusion comes before disidentification with them to sever identification at its roots.  

 

At some points trust is needed, and for some trust and faith alone may be enough, but it is sound both spiritually and psychologically to examine the bonds before extricating oneself.

[Spotless]

There is a difference between being "caught up in conditioning" and viewing residual conditioning (habituation) happen.

[Bindi]

I believe 'absolute' Self-realisation is possible no matter how rare, and to deny that it is possible is to manipulate the bar lower so as to believe that the attainment one has managed is enough.
 
So though I deny somewhat the value of 'awakening', which is patently an unfinished state, I have great respect for true Self-realisation from which there is no falling back.
 

Because sleep is only a temporary state of subsidence, it is a state of manōlaya (abeyance of mind), and from it the mind will certainly rise again. Likewise death and coma are both only states of manōlaya, as also is any temporary subsidence or samādhi achieved by means of yōga and other such spiritual practices that entail attending to anything other than ‘I’.

Therefore in verse 13 of Upadēśa Undiyār Bhagavan distinguishes the two basic kinds of subsidence of mind, temporary and permanent:
Subsidence [of mind] is [of] two [kinds], laya and nāśa. That which is lying down [in laya] will rise. If [its] form dies [in nāśa], it will not rise.
 
In this verse Bhagavan makes clear that nāśa is distinct from any kind of laya (which are all temporary, because they are states from which the mind will sooner or later rise again), and that it is permanent, because it is a state in which the mind is dead and from which it will never rise again.
http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/manonasa-destruction-of-mind.html

 

It is only Manonasa (annihilation of the lower mind) that can give you liberation. In Manonasa, the mind revives not and is dead. Manonasa is brought about by Brahma-Jnana. http://www.sivanandaonline.org/public_html/?cmd=displaysection&section_id=928

 

Manonasa is the final end of the ego-mind. It is very rare that a human attains Manonasa.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Bindi

[Spotless]

In the Awakened state their is simply not much that one gets "caught up in". Your child can be injured and the car dead and money sparse and it somehow is ok even if it is obviously like participating in a slow motion cluster fuck. One is not even remotely oblivious to the situation, it is simply in the now.

 

It does not mean that the whole range of vibrations is denied or no longer possible but a Red which used to mean anger might now be simply a cleansing vibrant clean unattached vibration.

[Spotless]

I believe 'absolute' Self-realisation is possible no matter how rare, and to deny that it is possible is to manipulate the bar lower so as to believe that the attainment one has managed is enough.

 

So though I deny somewhat the value of 'awakening', which is patently an unfinished state, I have great respect for true Self-realisation from which there is no falling back.

 

The idea of absolute is not inherently a problem - the inner can reach beyond all concept - but in relation to a human still alive and with a body - the inner can be of the highest states ever written about - and yet the embodiment will still have interaction that is at times what would appear to be less than of the highest (even though the inner is unattached and free from the arising).

 

The perfect picture high upon the pedestal is simply that - inside it is pure - but in the outer embodiment I know of no known or living example that would prove otherwise - often by their own words and certainly attested to by disciples - though often disciples have virgins and lotus flowers springing up everywhere.

[Jetsun]

I believe 'absolute' Self-realisation is possible no matter how rare, and to deny that it is possible is to manipulate the bar lower so as to believe that the attainment one has managed is enough.

 

So though I deny somewhat the value of 'awakening', which is patently an unfinished state, I have great respect for true Self-realisation from which there is no falling back.

 

I don't deny it's possible, but I don't see much evidence of it in the lives of most regular folk. The flip side of it is setting the bar so high that you write off all that is in between as insignificant.

 

But the way I see awakening is that it is more like the first step towards enlightenment rather than the last step. Before that we are mostly just pinging about in our minds. After awakening the ability to repress and control our experience is greatly reduced so all that is within us which we have denied and kept down starts to come up , so old habits and issues can even get worse for a time.

 

But take for example someone like Byron Katie, she developed her work method after she woke up as a means to deal with all the beliefs and blocks which were there after awakening, not before. She didn't wake up all at once in entirety, rather the core sense of separation fell away but there were still all sorts of beliefs and pockets of "I" still left over. She said it took her over two years after awakening just to process all the beliefs she had around her mother. She was still awake even though she had all these blocks and issues still inside of her at that time which would temporarily take her out of the awareness of being awake.

[Bindi]

Whip sawed - I agree - but surprised by them is something that does occur - the body will have certain residual preferences and other habits are still there as is expressed in all Sages and Enlightened Beings.

 

Name your favorite top 10 examples and I am certain I can find examples of what I am talking about. If you are speaking about those that are never known and have never been written about and who are Perfected Ghosts - well then I am sure you may be on to something. But I am speaking of the Saints and Sages both alive and in history - the Pantanjali's and lesser beings of this sort.

 

I have a favourite top 2 that I can find little fault in, both recent and well documented - Saint Seraphim of Sarov and Ramana Maharshi, I would genuinely like to see your critique of their residual preferences and habits.

[Jetsun]

I have a favourite top 2 that I can find little fault in, both recent and well documented - Saint Seraphim of Sarov and Ramana Maharshi, I would genuinely like to see your critique of their residual preferences and habits.

It took Ramana 3 years after awakening to enter back into society, to integrate and process what was happening to him where he lived alone in a cave. It could well be that he was dealing with his residual preferences and habits during this period.

[Bindi]

It took Ramana 3 years after awakening to enter back into society, to integrate and process what was happening to him where he lived alone in a cave. It could well be that he was dealing with his residual preferences and habits during this period.

 

There has been a lot written about Ramana's post-awakened state, have you found any reference to residual preferences and habits?

[Jeff]

I believe 'absolute' Self-realisation is possible no matter how rare, and to deny that it is possible is to manipulate the bar lower so as to believe that the attainment one has managed is enough.

 

So though I deny somewhat the value of 'awakening', which is patently an unfinished state, I have great respect for true Self-realisation from which there is no falling back.

 

Here is a similar view to your point...

 

"What is the Buddha’s path? It is the bodhi-mind, the mind of Nirvana. To walk on the Buddha’s path is to follow the path of the Great Enlightened One, the one who attained the Great Nirvana, the one who has reached ultimate liberation. Through great enlightenment, one sees all phenomena with pure luminosity. From the perspective of departing from all defilements, the Buddha saw the ultimate truth: the non-arising and non-ceasing of all phenomena. Through complete cessation, he achieved total peace of mind. This complete cessation does not mean that everything is extinguished. It is the cessation of all defilements and habitual tendencies. After achieving cessation, an Enlightened One begins a new life, a life of selfless service to benefit sentient beings.

As practitioners, we must understand impermanence. Impermanence is the gateway to emptiness.

Thus to understand emptiness, we must start with an understanding of impermanence. Emptiness, in turn, is the gateway to non-birth. By understanding emptiness, you will not be attached to life. In other words, you will transcend the two extremes and all dualities. In this way, you will be able to enter non-birth. Non-birth is the gateway to Buddhahood. Understanding non-birth, one will no longer be attached to life, one will no longer be afflicted by the miseries of life. One can learn and practice the Dharma in the cycle of birth and death and enter the path to Buddhahood."

 

(Jen-chun: Great Bodhi Mind, p 53-54)

[dwai]

There has been a lot written about Ramana's post-awakened state, have you found any reference to residual preferences and habits?

 

Ramana Maharshi was in what is called Kevala Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Far more people do reach Kevala Sahaja Savikalpa Samadhi. From there to where Ramana was, is not in anyone's control, it happens if it has to happen. That's what I've been told.

 

It's not a matter of setting the bar high or low for that. Getting there becomes a matter of grace. 

[dwai]

I have a favourite top 2 that I can find little fault in, both recent and well documented - Saint Seraphim of Sarov and Ramana Maharshi, I would genuinely like to see your critique of their residual preferences and habits.

 

Ramana Maharshi had the quirk of not wasting even a morsel of food. 

 

 

He would allow nothing to go to waste. Even a grain of rice or a mustard seed lying on the ground would be picked up, dusted carefully, taken to the kitchen and put in its proper tin. I asked him why he gave himself so much trouble for a grain of rice. He said: “Yes, this is my way. Everything is in my care and I let nothing go to waste. In these matters I am quite strict. Were I married, no woman could get on with me. She would run away.” On some other day he said: “This is the property of my Father Arunachala. I have to preserve it and pass it on to His children. He would use for food things we would not even dream of as edible; wild plants, bitter roots and pungent leaves were turned into delicious dishes.

~ Bhagavan in the Kitchen by Sampurnamma, Ramana Smrti Souvenir