Rocky Lionmouth

Marvels Iron Fist [potential spoiler alert]

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that bison skull mountain pic always makes me nauseous

 

as for opium... the white devil didn't create that, but he sure mastered the details of mass production.

 

white devil, yellow devil, red devil... all humans share similar nature both destructive and creative.

 

sweeping generalizations are seldom accurate or helpful in my experience

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Ooh! what a turn this took! We're already knee deep in history, mountains of skulls and the illuminati popped in with a wink of the eye.

Stay tuned pilgrims! ;)

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It all circles back.  In the first season of Daredevil its the darn Chinese (actually Kunlan'er Madam Gua) are the ones bringing the opium and buffalo skulls into New York.  Darn them. 

 

People will complain no matter what they the writers/producers do.  In Doctor Strange they made the Ancient One from looking to be oriental old guy to middle aged white woman (Celtic?).  The very talented woman ended up with lots of hate mail because of it.  Still she did a good job in the role.  Nothing wrong with shaking things up a little. 

 

Sometimes these things are as agenda'd as a producer being good friends with an actor and saying what the hell.  Though its true there is currently a comicbook backlash against the Great White Saviour complex.   Though as people pointed out, main characters tend to be inviolate, until they hand over the mantle, to there (often) black side kick- (Captain America to Falcon, Ironman to Iron Maiden, Green Lantern to a black Green Lantern, Thor to Lady Thor, Spiderman to Morales..)  Wait a second, Lady Thor wasn't black.  Morales is probably Hispanic, still whatever point I was going for was roughly hit, in hand grenade kind of way. 

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People will complain no matter what they the writers/producers do.  In Doctor Strange they made the Ancient One from looking to be oriental old guy to middle aged white woman (Celtic?).  The very talented woman ended up with lots of hate mail because of it.  Still she did a good job in the role.  Nothing wrong with shaking things up a little. 

 

pretty sure the Celtic ancient one,is the same actor who played the evil ice witch in the first nania movies.

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Posted (edited)

It all circles back.  In the first season of Daredevil its the darn Chinese (actually Kunlan'er Madam Gua) are the ones bringing the opium and buffalo skulls into New York.  Darn them. 

 

People will complain no matter what they the writers/producers do.  In Doctor Strange they made the Ancient One from looking to be oriental old guy to middle aged white woman (Celtic?).  The very talented woman ended up with lots of hate mail because of it.  Still she did a good job in the role.  Nothing wrong with shaking things up a little. 

 

Sometimes these things are as agenda'd as a producer being good friends with an actor and saying what the hell.  Though its true there is currently a comicbook backlash against the Great White Saviour complex.   Though as people pointed out, main characters tend to be inviolate, until they hand over the mantle, to there (often) black side kick- (Captain America to Falcon, Ironman to Iron Maiden, Green Lantern to a black Green Lantern, Thor to Lady Thor, Spiderman to Morales..)  Wait a second, Lady Thor wasn't black.  Morales is probably Hispanic, still whatever point I was going for was roughly hit, in hand grenade kind of way.

Lol, so in reality when Asian-Americans are the "model minority" with the lowest social pathology rates across the board of any group in the US - they are somehow cast as villainous heroin ring ninjas...lmfao!  Go HollyWEIRD!

NzwG7Zd.jpg

Meanwhile, of course they just HAD to Whitewash the benevolent, wise, Tibetan "Ancient One" master character - because that would have been a positive onscreen portrayal of Asian men.  Oops, that'd be breaking the rules, bro!

mg_swinton_ancientone_comp.png

So yes, the EXACT SAME SPELL CAST(E)ING SCRIPT emerges beneath all these Mad Libs:

- Acceptable to Blackwash White heroes (but NOT vice-versa!)

- Acceptable to Whitewash Asian heroes (but NOT vice-versa!)

- Subjugate all Asian characters to sidekicks and villains

 

Like literally NONE of the dozenish examples in this thread violate these rules, lol!

 

Coincidence...or concerted collective agenda?

Edited by gendao
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There are examples, but few and far between. A couple of the most famous kung fu guys, held in high esteem, got the lead roles in US-made movies: Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. I always saw Rush Hour with Chan in the lead role and Tucker as the sidekick. And the bad guy was white, if I remember (unless I'm confusing it with Legend of Drunken Master..been a while). And now there's a Rush Hour TV show which I haven't watched but believe is the same set up.

 

But take nearly any other famous Asian kung fu star and he invariably gets relegated. Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 (bad guy); in Cradle 2 the Grave (sidekick); in Unleashed (well, not the bad guy, but a literally chained slave...). Donnie Yen in Blade II (sidekick). Gordon Liu in Kill Bill (teacher).

 

I don't believe it's a conspiracy, but it's obvious that the American audience doesn't cope well with the idea of a strong yellow lead taking precedence over any number of white or black people.

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I don't believe it's a conspiracy, but it's obvious that the American audience doesn't cope well with the idea of a strong yellow lead taking precedence over any number of white or black people.

 

Or possibly the studios just haven't given them a chance to do so? I think it's unfair to write off an entire nation as racist because movie producers don't seem willing to take what they see as a financial risk.

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Posted (edited)

Nah, I like generalizing :closedeyes:

 

Why do they see it as a financial risk? Because it is.

 

The studios know to a pretty good extent what their audience is looking for. There are a lot of 'Asian' actors, but most of them never become popular. And the popularity of a celebrity is down to the viewers, at the end of the day.

 

I write this as Jessica Henwick (looks to be of Asian origin?) becomes IMDb's most popular star on their starmeter...! Though all of the main actors from Iron Fist are up there, so I suppose it's mostly down to that, as it's 'trending' right now.

 

Aside from Iron Fist, though... how many Asians, or just non-whites generally, do you see up there? I'd actually say that the studios give non-whites more opportunity than the general public do.

 

Rami Malek (American-Egyptian) is excellent as Elliot Alderson in Mr Robot, and Gemma Chan (British via China) is stunning as Mia in Humans (and I think of her as the main character, though there isn't really a single protagonist), and these are two of the best TV shows in recent years in my opinion. And they are rated highly on IMDb.... but they're not particularly popular. Most people don't want to watch Rami or Gemma -- they want to watch Rick Grimes, Daenerys Storrmborn, Meredith Grey, Barry Allen, Ragnar Lothbrok...

 

And even with Mr Robot and Humans, the non-white characters are cast as robots against otherwise mostly white 'normal' people.

 

Also, look at Billions. Do we think it would have been made or if anyone would watch it if someone had insisted on making the lead character of Indian origin? (as the story is based on Preet Bharara)

Edited by dust
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Posted (edited)

Why do they see it as a financial risk? Because it is.

 

 

 
Based on what? As you've pointed out, there are few shows with Asian actors in lead positions precisely because it's viewed as a risk, so what can you use to gauge whether it's a risk in the current market?
 
The problem is that we're talking about multi-million dollar productions, no company wants to be the first one to dive in and take that risk in case it doesn't work out for them. It sucks, but that's just the nature of the beast. 
 
Anyway, all I'm saying is that I think if people were given a chance, they might surprise you. 
 

 

And even with Mr Robot and Humans, the non-white characters are cast as robots against otherwise mostly white 'normal' people.

 

 

Yes because the shows were shows about... robots (well, metaphorically anyway, in the first case). In fact both characters had fairly intensive emotional dimensions which their actors portrayed exceptionally, I thought.

 

Two excellent roles which were given to excellent actors, who proceeded to perform excellently and receive critical acclaim for doing so. I mean what more do you want?

 

If they had cast Caucasian actors in those roles instead, you could say it's less roles being given to minority actors. If they had cast more minority actors in antagonist roles, you could say it's negative stereotyping. Should we just never cast minority actors as robots? What would have been a satisfactory outcome, in your eyes?

 

 

Also, look at Billions. Do we think it would have been made or if anyone would watch it if someone had insisted on making the lead character of Indian origin? (as the story is based on Preet Bharara)

 

 

 
That depends on whether you're talking about shoehorning an Indian actor into the role just because it's allegedly loosely based on an Indian individual, or selecting an Indian actor for the role because he performed the best in the casting process. The former seems like it would almost certainly be detrimental to the show, while the latter could only be beneficial.
 
I notice that nobody is insisting we head over to China or India and insist that they start including a greater number of Caucasian actors in their productions.
Edited by Aeran

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Posted (edited)

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I think if people were given a chance, they might surprise you.

 

Maybe.

 

 

 

Yes because the shows were shows about... robots (well, metaphorically anyway, in the first case). In fact both characters had fairly intensive emotional dimensions which their actors portrayed exceptionally, I thought.

 

Two excellent roles which were given to excellent actors, who proceeded to perform excellently and receive critical acclaim for doing so. I mean what more do you want?

 

If they had cast Caucasian actors in those roles instead, you could say it's less roles being given to minority actors. If they had cast more minority actors in antagonist roles, you could say it's negative stereotyping. Should we just never cast minority actors as robots? What would have been a satisfactory outcome, in your eyes?

 

Yes, I did say that they are 2 of my favourite shows of recent years and that the actors are "excellent" and "stunning", and that audiences seem to agree. But I also noted that the mainstream has paid way less attention to them than to other shows or actors. Is that not true? Mr Robot gets critical acclaim, but not such popular acclaim. It's a clever and awkward show, for people who like to think of themselves as awkward and clever.. it's not written for full-on mainstream appeal.

 

edit: looking at it on IMDb, I'm wrong. It's got a lot of ratings. A lot of people do seem to love Malek as lead, too. Though I still wonder about the average age of this audience. Younger, no?

 

But at the same time, how would audiences react to an American-Egyptian, even a classically handsome one, being cast as lead in a superhero show like Arrow or a legal show? No, it hasn't happened, so I'm jumping to a conclusion, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened because producers/casters know that most people don't want to see that.

 

 

That depends on whether you're talking about shoehorning an Indian actor into the role just because it's allegedly loosely based on an Indian individual, or selecting an Indian actor for the role because he performed the best in the casting process. The former seems like it would almost certainly be detrimental to the show, while the latter could only be beneficial.

 

Well it's "loosely based on", but so was Braveheart, and we expected that guy to be white... :ph34r:

 

I know nothing about the man -- maybe he didn't want it to be obviously based on him (considering what the character gets up to in the first scene of the first episode, I wouldn't blame him).

 

But none of that is the point -- you avoided my question. IF the role had been cast brown, would anyone have watched it?

 

 

I notice that nobody is insisting we head over to China or India and insist that they start including a greater number of Caucasian actors in their productions.

 

I appeared in a beer commercial on Chinese TV with a couple of friends ^_^  There were a bunch of whiteys there, a couple of whom make a living playing foreigners in Chinese TV.

 

There is a much higher ratio of naturalized or native non-whites in America than naturalized/native non-yellows in China. Way, way more. That's kind of the point: America is a 'melting pot' but television doesn't reflect that. China is not a melting pot. China is racist as fuck.

Edited by dust
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Posted (edited)

Nah, I like generalizing :closedeyes:

 

Why do they see it as a financial risk? Because it is.

 

The studios know to a pretty good extent what their audience is looking for. There are a lot of 'Asian' actors, but most of them never become popular. And the popularity of a celebrity is down to the viewers, at the end of the day.

I agree, to a degree..

 

If it's simply a matter of HollyWEIRD believing Asian actors are not as bankable - then how is that determined?  Is there some fair competition (free from central casteing biases) to actually measure that?

 

Like, what if you look at indy media platforms that are more grassroots reflecting the free market - to bypass central casteing cackblocking filters?  And try to short circuit circular reasoning to gain a more accurate measure directly from the audience (not studio heads)?

 

Well, of the YouTubers with the most subscribers, for instance - most are Top 40 popstars, with a few foreign Spanish ones too.  But, the top US amateur act is #7 Smosh (sketch comedy duo - one of whom is part-Filipino), followed by #14 Japanese comic, nigahiga. 

Ryan-nigahiga-24170882-602-352.jpg

Yes, these guys actually got more subscribers than top-rated, mainstream corporate acts like TheEllenShow, Bruno Mars, The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon, etc etc...!  Despite having practically no budgets!

 

But somehow Asian actors aren't as "bankable?"  Even when some Asian amateurs rack up more subs than Jimmy Fallon???  Granted, that's just one measure...yet it runs entirely counter to HollyWEIRD's "conventional wisdom."  Which you shouldn't expect if their "logic" was altogether true.

 

I mean, it makes sense that most leading roles and positive scripts would go to the majority group in a country.  But, I doubt it even makes FINANCIAL sense to thoroughly Whitewash even the few maringalized, minority roles that are tailor-made for Asian actors.  Because you CAN'T TELL me that turning a wizened old wizard named Yao born in Tibet in the 1430s - into a bald, middle-aged, White woman - was a FINANCIAL decision???  You can't tell me that the American/global audience is really THAT RACIST!  So, who really is that racist and what was their motivation, if not money???

633-01715906en.jpg

Or should they also have gotten Bette Midler to play Mr. Miyagi and Sarah Jessica Parker to play Master Po?

Edited by gendao
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I'll just note that these YT audiences are younger and more international than the average American TV audience.

 

Things are changing, for sure, though. Older people like to shit all over "millennials" for spending too much time on phones or some such nonsense, but their perspective is righteous.

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Posted (edited)

I'll just note that these YT audiences are younger and more international than the average American TV audience.

True, but even older audiences grew up watching Master Po and Mr. Miyagi, etc...

 

Yet now, these same viewers would suddenly rather watch a bald White woman instead of an old Asian greybeard playing...an old Asian greybeard?

 

Or is that BS...and might HollyWEIRD be motivated by something other than just audience approval and ratings/money?  Like sociopolitical statements and social engineering too?

 

I know a lot of apologists feel a lot more comfortable excusing everything on the profit motive (which I agree accounts for a LOTTTT), but I just don't think that really quite explains all of their actions.

Edited by gendao

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So what's the end game in this engineering?

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(spoilers below)

 

I felt like Iron Fist is the weakest of the Defender's lineup. For sure the setup was challenging- Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage, while each fantastical in their own way, were gritty and at least somewhat grounded in a plausible reality. In comparison, a Kung Fu master (and a scrawny one at that...) is a bit of a stretch.

 

When he first encountered the hatchet gang, I thought things were going to go well. He demonstrated a flowing technique, and while it was a little fantastical, not *too* outside the realm of possibility.

 

But as the show went on, his fighting style seemed to get more and more "brawl"-y. And I understand why- they were trying to show his deteriorating mental state, his mind full of doubts. Etc etc.

 

Which brings me to my first problem- he spent 15 years in a monastery and never learned to resolve any of his issues. What was the point of all of that meditation??? As a meditation practitioner, this frustrated me! Danny seems to have no ways of dealing with his anger issues, even from episode 1. I'll admit, everyone thinking you are crazy is infuriating but still.... calm down.

 

When it comes to the Hand, I actually liked what they did. We find out there are multiple factions of the Hand. We get some lore around Madame Gao. We already know she's a villain from Daredevil, but now we see a trickier side. She DOES play the kind grandmother, because she is trying to lure Danny in. And in a world where everyone is lying to him, perhaps the most manipulative thing she can do is tell the truth and be his friend.

 

But things brings me to my second problem- Danny is "sworn enemy of the Hand", but we as the audience know more about the workings of the Hand (from Daredevil) than Danny does! Granted, he says in an early episode that he just assumed the Hand stories were some boogeyman fairy tale... but even still, he is supremely naive in all of his dealings with the Hand.

 

And on that note, he seems to learn more about himself from the Hand than he did in 15 years in K'un-Lun. You're telling me they never taught him how to replenish his chi after using the Iron Fist? Seems kind of important. He apparently doesn't even know he can "double fist" it (so to speak) until he sees an old video from the Hand. And yes, I know he abandoned his post and probably had years worth of training lined up while guarding the pass. But they never taught even the basics of chi management in preparation for the huge chi injection he would receive??

 

Finally, at the end of each of the other seasons each hero "came into their own" by the end, or at least made peace with their situation. Daredevil gets his suit. Jessica Jones hangs up the sign and goes back to work. Luke Cage is resolved to sorting out his problems. While some of them had rough patches, or even tried to deny their own identity, by the end they made peace with who they were as people, if not as a hero.

 

Danny, on the other hand, never really makes that jump. In fact, the final scene he is going BACK to K'un-Lun because he hasn't been able to grow into his own at all. To me it feels like we only got "half" a story arc for him, and by the end we should see him (like Daredevil) at LEAST grow into his costume, even if he hasn't mastered his powers yet.

 

I too watched Into the Badlands before this show, and initially I was glad they didn't go full "kung fu" style in Defenders, as it wouldn't have matched the gritty realism of, say, Daredevil... but now I'm not so sure. At least we could explain it by him being a kung fu/chi master.

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I don't believe it's a conspiracy, but it's obvious that the American audience doesn't cope well with the idea of a strong yellow lead taking precedence over any number of white or black people.

If you want 'yellow leads' theres an ABUNDANCE of Chinese cinema and tv series. America, as inheritors of European culture, is mostly 'white', so why do they need to cater to all ethnicities? Dammit, why arent there more Caucasian leads in Chinese tv dramas??? Mustbe racism.

 

Its fine if arts want to refelct more diversity, but remember what national culture we are talking about. PPL make it sound as if having a 'white lead' in a post-european nation is morally offensive. It is ridiculous.

 

Even worse is Iron Fist.

 

And I love most Marvel stuff. But I couldnt finish the first episode bc it was crap from scritp to casting to everything. I wont be following up, but suppose will have to tolerate Fist if they make a Defenders series.

 

8)

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Posted (edited)

Asia is the motherland for asian culture and where BILLIONS OF ASIANS live. As if they dont have enough celluloidial representation. Why should all other cultures also portrary 'asian equality'? Again, flip it and tell me where are all the black film leads in Chinese cinema? Doesnt it sound ridiculous to suggest there SHOULD BE? Or wax on about how the Chinese film going public isnt interrsted in seeing that?

 

Anyway, Iron Fist is a pass for me, lol.

 

8)

Edited by Astral Monk

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Posted (edited)

If you want 'yellow leads' theres an ABUNDANCE of Chinese cinema and tv series. America, as inheritors of European culture, is mostly 'white', so why do they need to cater to all ethnicities? Dammit, why arent there more Caucasian leads in Chinese tv dramas??? Mustbe racism.

 

Its fine if arts want to refelct more diversity, but remember what national culture we are talking about. PPL make it sound as if having a 'white lead' in a post-european nation is morally offensive. It is ridiculous.

 

Though I do enjoy a person with jet black hair and eyes as much as a blonde or brunette, I'm not particularly craving Asian actors. And I do watch the occasional Chinese TV show...but most of them are shit. But this was not my point.

 

To reinforce a main point I was making, as maybe you missed what I wrote before..my first post along this line was:

 

It has been apparent to me for a long time that Hollywood, as diverse as it claims to be, will generally cast white actors in the main roles (and usually male roles), and blacks as sidekicks or secondary characters. Then comes Asian, then whatever else. I just watched the last episode of Grimm, and it's a perfect example. White lead, black detective partner, Asian uniform cop as a third.

 

Then again.. shouldn't we expect there to be a sensible ratio? There aren't many Asians in the US, are there? (relative to others)

 

 

However, to bring some actual data into the conversation:

 

There is a much higher ratio of naturalized or native non-whites in America than naturalized/native non-yellows in China.

 

There are around one million people in China from "other immigration jurisdictions", most of whom are from Macao, Hong Kong, Taiwan. There are only a few hundred thousand white and black people who live there long-term, and way fewer who are born there. Whereas there are around fifteen million people of Asian ancestry in the USA.

 

America is a 'melting pot'. China is not a melting pot. China is racist as fuck, no question about that.

 

I'm not saying it's "morally offensive" that there aren't more Asians on US TV/movies, just that the overwhelming pattern is: white > black > asian

Edited by dust
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Posted (edited)

Yes, I did say that they are 2 of my favourite shows of recent years and that the actors are "excellent" and "stunning", and that audiences seem to agree. But I also noted that the mainstream has paid way less attention to them than to other shows or actors. Is that not true? Mr Robot gets critical acclaim, but not such popular acclaim. It's a clever and awkward show, for people who like to think of themselves as awkward and clever.. it's not written for full-on mainstream appeal.

 

edit: looking at it on IMDb, I'm wrong. It's got a lot of ratings. A lot of people do seem to love Malek as lead, too. Though I still wonder about the average age of this audience. Younger, no?

 

But at the same time, how would audiences react to an American-Egyptian, even a classically handsome one, being cast as lead in a superhero show like Arrow or a legal show? No, it hasn't happened, so I'm jumping to a conclusion, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened because producers/casters know that most people don't want to see that.

 

 

I think you're making assumptions here again. Why would they be willing to cast him in Mr. Robot but not as a super hero? Hell, Mr. Robot practically is a superhero show in many respects, just with more emotional depth, less physical violence and less fantastical elements. They also devoted substantial resources to Luke Cage, a show which had a majority black cast. 

 

And I'd be interested in how you think they could have better cast Mr. Robot or Humans to be less prejudiced. It's easy to point fingers, but without even trying to suggest a solution it seems a bit pointless.

 

Well it's "loosely based on", but so was Braveheart, and we expected that guy to be white...  :ph34r:

 

 

Well it would be a bit weird if they had an Indian or Black or Asian man running around medieval Scotland in a kilt, waving a broadsword, wouldn't it? Certainly people get upset fairly quickly (and rightly, imo) when the reverse is done in movies like The Last Samurai.

 

 

But none of that is the point -- you avoided my question. IF the role had been cast brown, would anyone have watched it?

 

 

I don't think I avoided anything - as I said, I think the answer would depend less on the skin color of the chosen actor and more on their acting ability, especially in a show like Billions which is carried almost exclusively by the acting ability of the core cast.

 

You have to remember that demographics play a role too - how many Indian actors are there in Hollywood with the right combination of age, gender, availability, reputation, talent and suitable acting profile to pull that specific role off? 

 

I mean, it makes sense that most leading roles and positive scripts would go to the majority group in a country.  But, I doubt it even makes FINANCIAL sense to thoroughly Whitewash even the few maringalized, minority roles that are tailor-made for Asian actors.  Because you CAN'T TELL me that turning a wizened old wizard named Yao born in Tibet in the 1430s - into a bald, middle-aged, White woman - was a FINANCIAL decision???  You can't tell me that the American/global audience is really THAT RACIST!  So, who really is that racist and what was their motivation, if not money???

 

 

 

 

 I'm fairly certain the casting of Tilda Swinton in Dr. Strange was an attempt to subvert the "wise asian master" trope and to give a major, powerful role to a woman in a film which is otherwise dominated by men. And I think it worked - she nailed that role (especially given the flaws in the script she had to work around), and the movie would have been the poorer for her absence.

 

Again, this is a lose lose situation. If they had cast an asian man, people would complain that there were no women with strong roles in the movie, or that the asian actor was being typecast.

 

That's the problem with identity politics - no matter what you do with a given piece of media, there's always some angle from which you can portray it to make it look racist/sexist/oppressive/whatever. 

Edited by Aeran

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Posted (edited)

And I'd be interested in how you think they could have better cast Mr. Robot or Humans to be less prejudiced. It's easy to point fingers, but without even trying to suggest a solution it seems a bit pointless.

 

I don't think I've said that either show was prejudiced. It was not my original intention to suggest that they were, and if I did, it was in error. I think they're brilliant shows, and I'm happy that they were cast so very well.

 

I think my original reason for mentioning them was that they are the only examples I can think of of non-white characters taking precedence over an otherwise predominantly white cast (and that this is in their favour in my eyes).

 

 

 

Well it would be a bit weird if they had an Indian or Black or Asian man running around medieval Scotland in a kilt, waving a broadsword, wouldn't it? Certainly people get upset fairly quickly (and rightly, imo) when the reverse is done in movies like The Last Samurai.

 

Yeah. I was only joking with the Braveheart thing ^_^

 

 

I don't think I avoided anything - as I said, I think the answer would depend less on the skin color of the chosen actor and more on their acting ability, especially in a show like Billions which is carried almost exclusively by the acting ability of the core cast.

 

You have to remember that demographics play a role too - how many Indian actors are there in Hollywood with the right combination of age, gender, availability, reputation, talent and suitable acting profile to pull that specific role off?

 

I don't know.

 

I've brought up a bunch of shows, and there have been arguments against each individual example, but the bigger picture remains relevant. In the majority of TV I've seen from the US, the cast is lead by a white person. And, if the lead is non-white, so is the rest of the cast (all-black sitcoms, Empire, etc)

 

Look at partner/cop shows. Castle (white male lead, white female partner, hispanic third), The Mentalist (not seen it but 2 white leads), Psych (white lead, black sidekick), Grimm (white, black, Asian), Elementary (white male lead, yellow female sidekick)... The only recent detective show I can think of with a singular non-white lead is Luther -- and that's from the UK, where blacks make up way less of the population than in the US.

 

There were some great buddy cop movies in the '80s and onwards that paired a white and black guy, often without having a definite lead, and that was cool.. Eddie Murphy (48 Hours, Beverly Hills Cop) and Will Smith (Men In Black) did incredibly well at gaining not just mainstream acceptance but adoration... but there doesn't seem to have been much in that way since? Sam Jackson and Morgan Freeman, as popular as they are, rarely play the lead. Will and Denzel are the only real examples and I can't think of a single Asian example of this. Ken Jeong? :D

Edited by dust

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while assessment of progress is perception dependent...

it is observable and seems to be incremental and sequential in its nature.

 

often when in the midst of the forest, it is difficult to ascertain its health or shape... we must garner perspective and in order to assign value, there must be something to compare it to:

 

 

If we compare casting in American media now, to casting in the 50's there is a marked observable difference.

 

change appears to me as the currency of time

and change seems constant

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Posted (edited)

If you want 'yellow leads' theres an ABUNDANCE of Chinese cinema and tv series. America, as inheritors of European culture, is mostly 'white', so why do they need to cater to all ethnicities? Dammit, why arent there more Caucasian leads in Chinese tv dramas??? Mustbe racism.

Actually, Matt Damon was CAST by one of China's leading directors, Zhang Yimou, as the LEADING STAR of his recent flop, The Great Wall.

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And dust related a similar story about how ridiculously easy it was for him to get in a Chinese beer commercial. Which is basically what also happened to this other White celeb in China:

Dashan, 大山, literally Big Mountain, is the stage persona of Mark Rowswell, a tall, sandy-haired Canadian who is China’s most famous homegrown foreign entertainer.

In December 1988, four months after landing in the Chinese capital, he appeared in a comedy skit on the main state television network, China Central Television, or CCTV.

Fact is, White guys get treated better in China...than their own home countries. Which is in STARK contrast to how Asian guys get treated in Anglo ones. I.e. - the favor is certainly NOT returned!

 

So your "role reversal" question actually disproves your whole argument, not supports it.

I'm fairly certain the casting of Tilda Swinton in Dr. Strange was an attempt to subvert the "wise asian master" trope and to give a major, powerful role to a woman in a film which is otherwise dominated by men. And I think it worked - she nailed that role (especially given the flaws in the script she had to work around), and the movie would have been the poorer for her absence.

 

Again, this is a lose lose situation. If they had cast an asian man, people would complain that there were no women with strong roles in the movie, or that the asian actor was being typecast.

Lol, you see how the rationalizing double-standards work here?

 

"White Savior" tropes (Iron Fist) should be maintained for "historical accuracy."

But, "Wise Asian Master" tropes (Ancient One) should be discarded to "reduce stereotyping."

 

Funny how contradicting excuses are employed selectively to maintain the same hierarchical caste system.

 

Look, if you're only eliminating the relatively positive tropes for a group, while amplifying the negative ones - then that is far worse than not eliminating any at all. Meanwhile, doing the opposite obviously has the opposite effect.

 

And at the end of the day, what if this racism isn't necessarily profitable, anyways? Because ultimately, talent, is what sells art beyond the first glance. So, question is - even if it's unprofitable, will they still keep doing it?

Edited by gendao

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Posted (edited)

If we compare casting in American media now, to casting in the 50's there is a marked observable difference.

 

Hope so. If there wasn't an observable difference from then to now (USA and UK), we'd be in even more trouble than we appear to be (considering the current political climate)...!

 

Searching "1950s tv shows" on Google, it comes up with a list with pictures. Not a single non-white face, of course.

 

Searching "1990s tv shows", the list includes The Fresh Prince, Kenan & Kel, and Family Matters -- all of which are all-black casts. Not much mixture that I can see.

 

Searching "2010s tv shows", the list includes some actual mixture. Treme, Parks & Rec, Community, The Walking Dead, Orange is the New Black, New Girl, Hellcats.. so yes, an observable difference, even since the '90s. It is heartening. And most of those shows are excellent. Though actually fewer black leads (or popular shows predominantly featuring non-white people) showing up for the 2010s than the 1990s, it seems.

 

It's dawning on me just how much TV I've watched in my life... oh, but even if they were all white I'd still be watching...

Edited by dust

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yea one of the things I'm most grateful for via cultivation, is my low tolerance for watching tv... 

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I'm not saying it's "morally offensive" that there aren't more Asians on US TV/movies, just that the overwhelming pattern is: white > black > asian

I know, but one gets that feeling from similar commentary out there in the wild, wild, web. ;)

 

Lets not forget who runs Hollywood afterall, lol.

 

8)

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