Liu Huayang

[awaken]

Meeting on a street person with real transmission - Real Teacher, not someone who "learnt" from books.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

How do you know I only learn from books?

 

I learned from many different ways because I have an open mind.

 

I have many teachers.

 

In dan dao, I met many people cultivate very well.

 

When I was a beginner, I learned from many different teachers and friends.

 

Not only one teacher

 

Dan dao is not a religion.

 

You should not treat dan dao as a religion.

 

 

You can see almost all achiever in dan dao did not learn from a single teacher.

 

Buddha had the same situation.

Edited December 10, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

Wrong. 

 

难  不可

 

Is what Chinese dictionary says   

It is easy words.

 

It is too easy to use dictionary.

 

If I show this to my students, they will laugh for a while.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Hey "Taoist Texts". If we are done with clear and exlicit words of Patriarch Liu Haichan - how about other 6 quotes?

 

Need more? Give me a minute.

Edited December 10, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

It is easy words.

 

It is too easy to use dictionary.

 

If I show this to my students, they will laugh for a while.

 

Seems you are trying to understand ancient texts using meanings from modern Chinese. This naive approach explains why it is hard for you to undestand Liu Huayang words.

 

You can laugh with your students but you would actually laugh at yourself.

 

See http://www.zdic.net/z/27/xs/96BE.htm , 4th meaning.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Taoist Texts]

金丹大藥，古人以萬劫一傳。玉筍靈篇，學者之十迷九八，聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。所謂：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇明師莫強猜，只為金丹無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。劉海蟾詩日：此道迥昭彰，如何亂揣量。金丹之道，若不遇真師，實難知之矣。

 

Wise Teachers trasmitted from mouth to mouth (verbally), for centures, from heart to heart. If you have no heart transmission and verbal teaching - then even if you are talented as 3 heroes and smart as 10 sages and know everything - you as well would not be able to start the practice, create and complete spiritual fetus.

 

玉筍靈篇 this is not in your translation. Why and what does it mean?

[Taoist Texts]

 

See http://www.zdic.net/z/27/xs/96BE.htm , 4th meaning.

 

 

難 nán

〈形〉

(1) (形声。从隹( zhuī)?声。从隹,与鸟有关。①本义:支翅鸟。②假借为困难)

(2) 困难;艰难;不容易 [difficult;hard;troublesome]

非为织作迟,君家妇难为。——《玉台新咏·古诗为焦仲卿妻作》

蜀道之难,难于上青天。—— 李白《蜀道难》

(3) 又如:难句(难得的佳句);难老(难于衰老);难行(难于施行;不容易走);难治(不容易治理);难航(不易舟行);难期(难及,难于企及);难义(不易索解的辞旨);难极(不易穷尽);难疑(相互讨论不易索解,心存迷惑的要义);难乎为继(指前人做得太好,不易照样继续下去)

(4) 不可;不好 [hardly possible;bad]

桓谭作论,明弱水之难航。—— 汉· 王褒《灵坛碑文》

 

 

We see, we are not blind. Hardly possible is NOT impossible. Do you want me to make the font even larger for you?

[Taoist Texts]

you would actually laugh at yourself.

Hahhahaah;) these people always always shoot themselves in the foot.

[Taoist Texts]

Give me a minute.

A minute? you practically live here, when do you practice?

 

Sigh...look whom i am asking...

[effilang]

I've highlighted questions in your message with blue, please see my answers below.

 

1. Thank you. I greatly appreciate forum members' attention.

2. If we understand why people die and know what effect alchemy does to human body - then yes. It is not an ultimate goal but it is necessary to pass this stage on the way of perfection. 

3. Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

4. If you asking about giving immortality secret to anyone - it is once again a question of a kid with nuclear weapon in his/her hand. It would simply turn our world to hell immediately as every single person needs to pass through perfection process and not just gain unlimited power to become the demon.

If your question is about teaching worthy students - it happens. Wu Chongxu was about 200 years old when he was teaching Liu Huayang. There is a number of masters in Taoist history who were taught by Laozi. And so on.

 

5. This one refers to the part I highlighted with red.

Man knowing a secret of immortality in a society is like a usual man with holding bag full of gold in room fool of gangsers. That is why Taoist Patriarchs have always hidden in mountains and almost never accepted invitations from Chinese rulers.

 

Date of birth without date of death - repeatedly for lot of Taoists would draw pretty much of unwanted attention and shouldn't be considered as a wise behavior. 

 

Please ask your further questions in this thread, I may miss something in other discussions.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts:

 

Here you said:

 

Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi?

 

Here is the heart of my question:

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? .

 

A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example?

Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students.

 

Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person?

 

I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that.

 

Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated.

 

How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it.

 

I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit?

 

If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan?

 

So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial?

 

Those are my questions : )

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

难  不可

 

Is what Chinese dictionary says   

No its what you say it sais 不可 is NOT impossible.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

 

this is not in your translation. Why and what does it mean?

 

 

Lets try one more time, reducing amout of text so you can see clearly.

 

聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。

 

Out of 10 learners 9 or 8 are confusing [themselves]. Wise Teachers trasmitted from mouth to mouth (verbally), for centures, from heart to heart. If you have no heart transmission and verbal teaching - then even if you are talented as 3 heroes and smart as 10 sages and know everything - you as well would not be able to start the practice, create and complete spiritual fetus.

[Taoist Texts]

 

Lets try one more time, reducing amout of text so you can see clearly.

 

聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。

 

Out of 10 learners 9 or 8 are confusing [themselves]. Wise Teachers trasmitted from mouth to mouth (verbally), for centures, from heart to heart. If you have no heart transmission and verbal teaching - then even if you are talented as 3 heroes and smart as 10 sages and know everything - you as well would not be able to start the practice, create and complete spiritual fetus.

 

You do not answer question because this quote above  refers to a BOOK and now you know it because i pointed out it to , so you still got your freebie lol...but at a price lol

 

 

See what your check got  you? A CHECK-MATE for you.

 

 

Haaahaha;))))

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Free observation and dictionary lookup lesson for "Taoist Texts" and "awaken". 

 

难忘 nánwàng

(1) [unforgettable]

 

难堪 nánkān

(1) [intolerable]

 

难言 nányán 

[unverbalized]

 

难免 nánmiǎn 

[ineluctable]

 

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Haaahaha;))))

 

聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。

 

Out of 10 learners 9 or 8 are confusing [themselves]. Wise Teachers trasmitted from mouth to mouth (verbally), for centures, from heart to heart. If you have no heart transmission and verbal teaching - then even if you are talented as 3 heroes and smart as 10 sages and know everything - you as well would not be able to start the practice, create and complete spiritual fetus.

 

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Excuse me. You seem to forget there is a Chinese here.

 

難做 does not mean impossible to do.

 

It means it is difficult to do.

 

It can be done, but just difficult.

 

Impossible to do 不可能

 

So you say you are living in China and have learnt Neidan much, and not even knowing meanings from the commonplace dictionary? 

 

难

 

http://xh.5156edu.com/html3/20737.html

 

不大可能办到，使人感到困难：难免。难为。难保。难怪。难倒（dǎo ）。难道。难能可贵。

 

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Taoist Texts]

You can copy and paste your out of context translation a million times, it still would be wrong. Give it up, i warned you nicely at the start that you and your whole school is no match for me in a debate. You should have listened:)

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

So you say you are living in China and have learnt Neidan much, and not even knowing meanings from the commonplace dictionary? 

 

Yes. Thats exactly what happened. To you. hahah)

Edited December 10, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Patriarch Ge Hong, Baopuzi:

 

 

吾非生而知之，又非少而信之，始者蒙蒙，亦如子耳，既觀奧祕之宏修，而恨離困之不早也。

五經之事，注說炳露，初學之徒，猶可不解。豈況金玉札，神仙之經，至要之言，又多不書。

登壇歃血，乃傳口訣，

苟非其人，雖裂地連城，金璧滿堂，不妄以示之。

夫指深歸遠，雖得其書而不師受，猶仰不見首，俯不知跟

所謂不知而作也。

 

I am by no means a person, endowed with inborn knowledge of it (alchemy) and it also may not be said that I believed in it (alchemy) being very young. At the beginning I was the same inmature and ingorant as you. But when I begun to observe the great mistery of powerful cultivation methods I regretted that I was released from all that difficulties this late. In deeds of studying 5 canons explanations and commentaries assist much, irrigating them (canons) like a pure dew. But for beginners much remains unclear yet. It is even more true applied to the golden plates and jade pages where the Teachings of Immortality are written on. Besides of that a lot of the most important instructions are not written there at all.

 

The Altar is being build, lips are being moistened with blood and only then, after vow of keeping silence is sealed this way, secret instructions are being transmitted from mouth to mouth.

 

If it happens that a person is not suitable for transmitting him these misteries even if he gives (to alchemy teacher) huge lands and entire lines of cities, fill up halls with gold and jade, he wouldn't get a thing (teaching) anyway. (no one would teach him recklessly).

 

Since these instructions point to the depths and lead far away, so even if to write them down, yet a person who haven't recieved them from his Teacher would understand nothing from them: he looks up - and wouldn't see head, he looks down - wouldn't see feet.

 

It is said right about this: "Not knowing, yet doing".

Edited December 10, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[Taoist Texts]

Oooh Gehong...this is serious. Now we are talking.

[Taoist Texts]

Ugh, i am just messing with you, kinda gets boring too. So what this passage say in one sentence?

[Taoist Texts]

So now we see more and more Patriarchs saying the same words about the necessity of a True Teacher.

 

Ah, is that what is says now?

 

You know, there are 2 english idioms 'shoot oneself in the foot' and 'shoot fish in a barrel'. Now metaphorically your both feet are like fish in a barrel and you shoot yourself in them over and over. Thats what you did when you posted this paragraph. 

 

 

 

I am by no means a person, endowed with inborn knowledge of it (alchemy)

 

 

Here Ge says that there are persons endowed with inborn knowledge of it (alchemy).

 

From this follows that such persons do not need no teacher nor books.

 

That makes your statement

 

more and more Patriarchs saying the same words about the necessity of a True Teacher.

 

 

a mis-truth.

 

Check and Mate.

 

...gosh, this is boring.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

 

So if you can't understand both Chinese and English, I can help you with Russian version translation: 

 

LOL ...lips with blood..hahaha))

[A.A.Khokhlov]

I am by no means a person, endowed with inborn knowledge of it (alchemy)

Here Ge says that there are persons endowed with inborn knowledge of it (alchemy).

 

Nonsense. If I say you that I'm not an extraterrestrial it doesn't proves that extraterrestrials exist.

Second try.

[Taoist Texts]

So you are saying that Ge was talking nonsense. Okey)

 

You know somebody said that insanity is doing same thing over and over expecting a different result.

 

So you want a second round, lol.

 

The Altar is being build, lips are being moistened with blood and only then, after vow of keeping silence is sealed this way, secret instructions are being transmitted from mouth to mouth.

 

 

 

 

Is this  how the transmission ceremony is done in your school? lips are being moistened with blood ? whose blood is that?

[A.A.Khokhlov]

LOL ...lips with blood..hahaha))

 

Right. Here is one more lesson of simple Chinese for you:

 

歃血

shàxuè

 

[smear the blood of a sacrifice on the mouth - an ancient form of swearing an oath] 古人盟会时, 微饮牲血, 或含于口中, 或涂于口旁, 以示信守誓言的诚意

王当歃血而定从, 次者吾君, 次者遂。 --《史记·平原君虞卿列传》

 

 

While you can continue laughing at ancient Alchemy Masters.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited December 10, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov