What happens when death dies?

[3bob]

what happens when death dies... fear dies with it for the eater of death is free from it

[Marblehead]

What a different way of looking at that concept!

 

What happens when the fear of death dies?  We begin to totally live?

[WisteriaWinds]

For me fear of death ended when I experienced a fundamental pure awareness which can't be destroyed and was never created. Its a true conscious "AM". For years every time I captured it, it would startle me back out.

I'm still afraid of severe injury though.

[3bob]

the trick so to speak is the transcendent and manifest dealing with each other...

[Karl]

What a different way of looking at that concept!

 

What happens when the fear of death dies?  We begin to totally live?

If you value your life then you will fear the loss of that value.

 

So, the story goes of the student that told his master that he had lost all fear of death. The master asked the student to prove it. He made the student strip naked and swim out into the ocean a little way so could still see his master on the shore line. Once student was sufficiently far away, the master picked up the students clothing and called for some vagabonds to come to him, where upon he gave away all the students clothing.

The student swam back to the beach to ask the master why he had given away his clothes. He was as mad as hell and chased the vagabonds trying to get back his clothing. The master only laughed.

 

I thought I understood that story when I first encountered it, but I hadn't. The student said he no longer feared death, therefore he would hold no value for his life. All our values are predicated on our value of life as a primary. So, the loss of the clothes was proof that the student had convinced himself of something that had no basis in reality. He still valued his clothes and therefore he still valued his life. He was angry that he had lost a value (his clothes) so imagine how much more angry he would be had he had his life threatened.

 

Fearing death is to value life. To value life is to be pro-life, to live fully. To have no fear of death is not to value life it is to be anti-life and to fear life itself. We cannot equivocate, it is a binary choice.

[Karl]

what happens when death dies... fear dies with it for the eater of death is free from it

Death cannot die, it daft to try and make up things like that. What happens if the rain rained, or heat got hot ? Death is related to living organism. A rock is never alive so it cannot die, but an organism is required to. If there was no death, no fear of death, then there would be no purpose to life. One implies the other.

[roger]

What a different way of looking at that concept!

 

What happens when the fear of death dies?  We begin to totally live?

 

I recently realized that I had a fear of not existing. But it wasn't a fear of physical death. It was a fear that I didn't truly exist.

 

After contemplating it for a while, it occurred to me that I knew darned well that I exist, and that was when I overcame my fear that I didn't exist.

 

Then something extrordinary occurred. I realized that I was never really afraid that I didn't exist; it wasn't non-existence that I feared, but EXISTENCE, my own divine reality.

 

ACIM says that "what seems to be the fear of death is really its attraction." And why are we "attracted" to death? Because we fear LIFE.

 

I used to have this fear of going to bed at night, so I would stay up very late.

 

It SEEMED that I was afraid of non-being, of emptiness, nothingness, "death." Going to bed meant facing oblivion, the impermanence of life and of myself. It meant loss of experiential existence. That seemed to be what I was afraid of.

 

But when I looked deeper, I saw that going to bed didn't mean death- it meant LIFE!!

 

Staying up all night wasn't an escape from death, it was an avoidance of, an escape from, life.

 

ACIM would say that my staying up so late arose, not out of a fear of death, but out of an attraction to it. It was a way to avoid life, not death.

 

So when I finally overcame this fear, or rather, attraction, I realized that I never really honestly believed in it in my heart at all. It was just a huge defense.

[9th]

Yeh man, death is not a problem.   Living in agony, suffering the pain of this world, enduring fatal diseases and chronic conditions... thats a whole other story.  Death isnt what you need to worry about, its going to remove all that.

 

When people talk about the fear of death they are usually just referring to a fear of the unknown - which occurs in many other forms as well besides "death".  Reactions to thoughts of your life ending and not having any more chances to do anything, thats a different range of emotions than the primal fear which motivates you to survive at all costs.

 

Primal fear is DNA level stuff.  Earthly DNA is billions of years old.  Thats billions.  As in around 3,000,000,000 years.   Your human personality is probably not as old as that - and therefore its not going to have nearly the same impact on your mind as your DNA will.

 

[Karl]

We don't fear life, though we might fear living. Life can be used equivocally, so it needs defining. Life is movement. Living is choosing when, where and how to move.

 

We do not fear existence, but we may fear the ramifications of existing. Fear is natural. It is the precursor to loss of a value, pain is the loss of that value and pleasure the gaining of value. The other side of fear is anticipation. There is hope and despair.

 

There is a point at which too greater loss, too much fear, too much pain and despair will upset the balance and life is no longer the highest value. At that point death is preferable. At any time death is possible. Death is always the ultimate end. This is different for everyone. We all have to weigh these things.

[Marblehead]

If you value your life then you will fear the loss of that value.

 

So, the story goes of the student that told his master that he had lost all fear of death. The master asked the student to prove it. He made the student strip naked and swim out into the ocean a little way so could still see his master on the shore line. Once student was sufficiently far away, the master picked up the students clothing and called for some vagabonds to come to him, where upon he gave away all the students clothing.

The student swam back to the beach to ask the master why he had given away his clothes. He was as mad as hell and chased the vagabonds trying to get back his clothing. The master only laughed.

 

I thought I understood that story when I first encountered it, but I hadn't. The student said he no longer feared death, therefore he would hold no value for his life. All our values are predicated on our value of life as a primary. So, the loss of the clothes was proof that the student had convinced himself of something that had no basis in reality. He still valued his clothes and therefore he still valued his life. He was angry that he had lost a value (his clothes) so imagine how much more angry he would be had he had his life threatened.

 

Fearing death is to value life. To value life is to be pro-life, to live fully. To have no fear of death is not to value life it is to be anti-life and to fear life itself. We cannot equivocate, it is a binary choice.

 

Well, I'm not going to disagree with you.  But I still stand by what I said.

 

In your last paragraph, instead of "Fearing death ..." how about, "Avoiding death as well as one can ..."?

 

I love life.  I want to live as long as possible as long as I am free to move when I feel like moving.  (I won't be hooked up to a bunch of tubes.)

[Karl]

Well, I'm not going to disagree with you.  But I still stand by what I said.

 

In your last paragraph, instead of "Fearing death ..." how about, "Avoiding death as well as one can ..."?

 

I love life.  I want to live as long as possible as long as I am free to move when I feel like moving.  (I won't be hooked up to a bunch of tubes.)

I would prefer to state it in the positive. That the value of life is an end in itself. We already know that it's a primary value so anything that threatens it is bad, anything that enhances it is good.

 

There may come a time when we no longer value our lives, if that time arrives we deal with it.

 

Life isn't the absence of death as pleasure isn't the absence of pain. So let's enjoy life while we can and strive to achieve the values that make it so.

[9th]

Life is the arena.  Death is the player.  If you want to talk about "winning" the game, we can discuss that - but its quite another matter than your standard monkey business of grabbing as many bananas as you can and sleeping in the highest treetops with the most females (or males or whatever).

[Karl]

Life is the arena.  Death is the player.  If you want to talk about "winning" the game, we can discuss that - but its quite another matter than your standard monkey business of grabbing as many bananas as you can and sleeping in the highest treetops with the most females (or males or whatever).

I neither grab as many bananas as I can, nor do I sleep with the most females. I earn my bananas and have had one gorgeous wife for the last 30 odd years and have never needed anyone else.

[9th]

I neither grab as many bananas as I can, nor do I sleep with the most females. I earn my bananas and have had one gorgeous wife for the last 30 odd years and have never needed anyone else.

 

And yet you took the statement personally?

[Karl]

And yet you took the statement personally?

As you implied that you were personally not one of those. I countered your assertion with my own actions. If you wish to make sweeping generalisations then try at least to have evidence either philosophically, or empirically.

[9th]

As you implied that you were personally not one of those. I countered your assertion with my own actions. If you wish to make sweeping generalisations then try at least to have evidence either philosophically, or empirically.

 

Yes - I personally do not subscribe to the monkey business, or wish to participate in it.  However you have not "countered my assertion" with your "actions".  The only "action" you performed here was another statement.  This statement consisted of your claims of what you do in your life, in relation to my joke about monkey business.  So why do I need to know what you have achieved?  What does that matter in regards to the "assertion" that I do not participate in such monkey business?  Can you explain this?  There is no logic to your statements above.

 

In regards to your idea of such statements being "actions" - have you ever heard the expression "talk is cheap"?  Its like how I can say "IM KING OF THE WORLD!!" anytime I want, even if it has no actual truth or meaning to it.  

 

If you want evidence for the sweeping generalization of how monkeys run this planet in the name of such monkey business, all you have to do is look around.  You have to open your eyes and be willing to see the truth of the situation as it is - if you are unwilling or unable to do this, you will not find any evidence.  Generally, if you dont want to find that evidence, you wont find it - and Im pretty sure I know what you want...

[Karl]

I know humans. I know there are good and bad actors. My friends aren't running around being the monkeys you claim are everywhere. Men can be moral because they feel good about being moral and bad about immoral behaviour. Few people enjoy conflict, fewer still deliberately, engage in the initiation of force against peaceful men. The people I know are kind. Not only do they not 'take all the bananas' but they give away the bananas they have earned through honest effort. Charities are full of volunteers giving away their bananas, homes are full of old age couples who have lived together in a monogamous relationship all of their lives and when one partner dies, then the other follows in short order.

 

You need to find some better people if your experience is so jaded.

[dawei]

 ‘When Death doth close his tender dying eyes’ King Henry VI, Part I

- The immediacy of death is well known to parents.  

 

And from Galatians:  And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature, with all its passions and desires. 

 

 

Neither case above, Shakespeare or the bible, truly understands death dies.  

 

Death can only exist [as a concept] because of the concept of life.  

 

The only way to escape death is to escape life.

 

When that is done, where did one truly go?

[Marblehead]

 ‘When Death doth close his tender dying eyes’ King Henry VI, Part I

- The immediacy of death is well known to parents.  

 

And from Galatians:  And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature, with all its passions and desires. 

 

 

Neither case above, Shakespeare or the bible, truly understands death dies.  

 

Death can only exist [as a concept] because of the concept of life.  

 

The only way to escape death is to escape life.

 

When that is done, where did one truly go?

I agree with you but wait.

 

How about we go beyond dualities back to singularity (oneness)?  Just being a part of the processes (we can't avoid that anyhow) until it is time to stop living.  Creation and destruction.  But the destruction brings about new creations.

[3bob]

The Upanishads go further into this, ego basically fears its death- or its end which it can not really wrap its head around. One's body (and other perishable aspects) returning to the elements is for the body, not for Atman. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by 3bob

[9th]

I know humans. I know there are good and bad actors. My friends aren't running around being the monkeys you claim are everywhere. Men can be moral because they feel good about being moral and bad about immoral behaviour. Few people enjoy conflict, fewer still deliberately, engage in the initiation of force against peaceful men. The people I know are kind. Not only do they not 'take all the bananas' but they give away the bananas they have earned through honest effort. Charities are full of volunteers giving away their bananas, homes are full of old age couples who have lived together in a monogamous relationship all of their lives and when one partner dies, then the other follows in short order.

 

You need to find some better people if your experience is so jaded.

 

 

It was a joke, maybe you need to have a better sense of humor? And before you get too far off on that tangent of happy shiny people, let me clarify the original statement and my interpretation of your response - just for kicks.  

 

I stated that in the "game" of life, death is the "player" - and "winning" has nothing to do with "monkey business".  It seems you are saying that your achievement of what may be called "domestic bliss" - that your achievement of "satisfaction" in worldly life and your peaceful lifestyle is somehow the same thing or relevant to what I was saying.  That is not correct.  It may be "winning" for you - thats great, more power to you.

 

What Im saying, in this cheeky way - is that "winning" the "game" of life means that you have "won" against death.   This has nothing to do with domestic bliss, worldly satisfaction, amount of peoples lives you saved, how many charities to you gave how many millions too, etc. etc. etc. etc. and so on.  Donald Trump or Bill Gates can easily "lose" and a rotting leper on a street corner can easily "win" - but actually they all have the same chances.  Its not the same thing as worldly success, and has nothing to do with it one way or the other.  In other words, your worldly success or lack of it has no effect other than the conditions it provides which may or may not help it along, but such effects are fairly minor in the overall path.  It also has nothing to do with morality and ethics and human laws of society.  It does involve the inner conscience which you are born with - in whatever capacity it manifests - not the learned responses you are instructed in by your parents, siblings, relatives, teachers, schools, etc... but conscience is only a part of the picture.

 

Most have no interest in it, if they even suspect the possibility exists in the first place - even those with cultural influences springing directly from such endeavors.  Its just not the same thing as "living large" in the world, however you choose to personally define that.  They arent mutually exclusive at all, but it can be difficult to tie them together.  Many have started out with interests in this other path beyond death, but are then diverted by life events which end up being of more value to them than their practice.

[Karl]

Let me attempt to boil down that long reply to see if I understand you. Are you talking about our first initial awareness of our own existence ?

 

If you are, then are you trying to say that consciousness has primacy and therefore, because we are a consciousness then death is impossible ?

[9th]

[dawei]

I agree with you but wait.

 

How about we go beyond dualities back to singularity (oneness)?  Just being a part of the processes (we can't avoid that anyhow) until it is time to stop living.  Creation and destruction.  But the destruction brings about new creations.

 

I thought I was beyond duality... beyond life and death... not to just singularity/oneness but Not-oneness.

 

If you talk of process, you're back into the manifest recycle

 

Maybe we get back to Zhuangzi forum  LOL!

[Marblehead]

I thought I was beyond duality... beyond life and death... not to just singularity/oneness but Not-oneness.

 

If you talk of process, you're back into the manifest recycle

 

Maybe we get back to Zhuangzi forum  LOL!

 

Yes, Chuang Tzu talks about that too.

 

And you know I'm a Manifest kind of guy so that's what I mostly speak to.

 

It's hard for me to talk about Mystery because it's a mystery to me.