So how does reincarnation work in Taoist theory?

[Oneironaut]

I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right question. On one end I get the response that Taoists do not believe in reincarnation and on the other end I'm told that at death all the different shen split off from the body of a person, go about their own way and merge together elsewhere with different energies to form an entirely different person. Can someone clear this up for me?

[Oneironaut]

Actually, I just found this off of Michael Winn's site. 

 

What happens to that at death? 

My understanding is that all of these spirits, whether it's the hun, the po, the jing shen, the heart shen or the yi, are all immortal; none of them actually die. That’s why they are referred to as your "inner gods." They'll just split off from the body at death and go on their separate ways unless they’ve fused into a greater identity. So, they don't die. The personality dies because there's nobody there to hold it together. 
The po souls will go back to the earth where they will live in the low astral planes of the earth until they "sign a new contract" and co-mingle with some new combination of spirits coming together to form a human. I believe this is why the Taoists do not focus on past lives or reincarnation, because it doesn't make sense to try and track an individual through all of this. You're drawing from a whole pool of po souls and a whole pool of hun souls from different shens. All that counts is the harmonious merger of these shen in the present moment. This is the rebirth of their original shen and the original qi within physical time/space. This union of spirits from heaven and earth within a human seems to be in deep alignment with the Tao.

 

This seems to differ greatly from the Buddhist and Hindu ideas behind reincarnation. This actually throws everything in for a giant loop of confusion. Which of these are more accurate and true?

[Kongming]

Depends on which Daoists you ask. Historically there have been plenty of Daoists who have professed the Indic vision of transmigration, and as far as I am aware this is the view held by Quanzhen and hence most Daoists in China. Even prior to the influence of Buddhism there was a Daoist notion of transmigration under the concept of bianhua 變化 or metamorphosis, such as in the 2nd century Laozi bianhua jing 老子變化經 "Scripture of the Transformations of Laozi", though here applied to the many incarnations of a deity.

 

Personally I am in agreement with Julius Evola's viewpoint that this concept also existed in the early Daoism as explained by him from his introduction to an Italian translation of the Daodejing, in turn translated into English as a pamphlet entitled "Taoism: The Magic, the Mysticism" (sorry had to use a screen capture to post this):

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Kongming

[thelerner]

My main information on Taoist reincarnation also comes from Michael Winn.  And Taoism doesn't really have a 'bible' of must believes.  So from him I get we're a collection of multiple souls, one or two reincarnate the others separate to find other gigs. 

 

In a Mussar class I was taking came a Jewish belief (note there are a couple) in a multi-part soul.  Where one 'soul'  is permanent and an aspect of God, others are shaped by the individual.   Not that far from Taoism though none of the 'organ god' stuff.

[Andrei]

Michael Winn is a total bullshit. In a way it is correct but he is confusing a lot the chinese terminology. We all have a Higher Spirit or a Higher Self that incarnates as "us". This Higher Self is the Shen, the Old Spirit, the Lao Zu, the Old Master, the Father in Christian terminology. When the Higher Self incarnates in the body it becomes the Son, or the Child/Embryo or the Yuan Shen. The Embryo/Child has to grow into a Man and go back to the Father. In Taoist terminology this is called the Heavenly Emperor or Jade Emperor. But your Yuan Shen to go back to the Heavenly Emperor has to become the Emperor of the body, the Shen of the heart or the Mind/Heart has to conquer and govern all the bodily functions which are the organs and their spirits. So you have to unite these spirits and make them function as one under one ruler which is your Mind/Heart. These spirits are like ministries of the empire, they are governors of the inner landscape. But at first they are like animals and need to be tamed. The worst of them is the Dragon and Tiger that is very difficult to pacify but once you pacify and made them to mate they become the Hun and Po, the Heavenly/Celestial Spirit and Po the Earthly Ghost or Animal Spirit. One of them is pulling you up to the Heaven the other is pulling down to the Earth. This means you have a double destiny, a Heavenly destiny to climb up to the Heaven and reunite with your Father or Emperor and the other Earthly destiny to fulfill your duties and learn your lessons down on Earth. These two destinies are the Xing and Ming and you have to cultivate both to maximize your success in winning the life game. At first you have to cultivate the Ming but that means to tame the animal spirit Po and gradually transform and refine into Hun the heavenly spirit. You may say that the Po is whatever you inherit through genes from your ancestors and the Hun is whatever you learn in life experiences and cultivate through spiritual practice. Taoist say that when you die there should be no more Po left, everything should be transformed into Hun to be able to raise to Heaven and reunite with the Heaven Emperor. So when you die Hun and Shen are actually the same thing, they belong to Heaven and return to heaven but Po belongs to Earth and remains on Earth, here Po being the corpse and the ghost you left behind. If the cultivation of Po is wrong you may reinforce it and thus the Po is strong and keeps you down on Earth as a Ghostly Immortal or Daemon in Christian terminology although Daemon meaning in the Greek is the equivalent of the Heavenly Emperor, but initially they were using the daemon word as spirits just like they are using now the word shens as spirits. But basically a daemon is a spirit trapped in the earthly plane with a lot of animal spirit in it. But going back to "reincarnation", once your Shen goes back to his Emperor/Father/Lord/Master/Higher Self does not reincarnate, it is just reunited with Him and stays there forever, which is a Celestial Immortal. Of course "forever" is a relative term, they say "It lasts as long as the Heaven and Earth will last". But the Higher Self can and does incarnate multiple times or ways because now the notion of time is not relevant anymore, you cannot say it is re-incarnated because there is not a "series" of lives it is most likely a "parallel" of lives, all incarnations of the Higher Self are parallel in space-time continuum. When someone "remembers" something form a "previous" life is actually accessing the information or memory stored by the Higher Self. A better illustration of what I say here is the movie Cloud Atlas but this is just how a Hollywood movie can show.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Andrei

[Oneironaut]

......

Edited September 5, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Brian]

Am I the only one here who remembers that Michael Winn is a forum member? I mean, it's no wonder that he doesn't post here often -- seems few teachers do anymore, actually -- but forum rules should still apply.

[Bearded Dragon]

I think this is something I'd have to "prove" to myself to better understand it. I'm still trying to get a hold of Juan Li who worked with Taoist dream practices and Tibetan Rinponches for many years. I want to know the truth about all of this.

 

How can you prove it by asking someone? No matter how highly regarded someone is, words are words.

 

Honestly, I think the idea of reincarnation has no place in Taoism (or Buddhism or anything for that matter). It's all the same kind of fear-mongering that organised religions use to control their followers. There is no benefit in knowing anything about reincarnation other than to hook people in and control them into staying within the particular system.

[Andrei]

Am I the only one here who remembers that Michael Winn is a forum member? I mean, it's no wonder that he doesn't post here often -- seems few teachers do anymore, actually -- but forum rules should still apply.

 

Sorry If I come too harsh, I should have used a little more words: "What Michael Winn is saying there is a total bullshit". If he is a forum member he can defend his position by himself but I am sure he will agree with my post anyway. I mean he was saying that a long time ago, in the meantime he might changed his opinion. Michael Winn and Mantak Chia spread some beliefs which are still hanging there on internet or in the world as books they published, but in the meantime they evolved and changed their beliefs while their writings are still there.

[Oneironaut]

How can you prove it by asking someone?

 

You can't. But you are aware that there are legitimate practices to experience the state of death and anything beyond that? I have some experience with it but I'm certainly no adept. At least not yet. 

 

Honestly, I think the idea of reincarnation has no place in Taoism (or Buddhism or anything for that matter).

 

Kinda difficult (if not impossible) to separate much of the time. 

 

It's all the same kind of fear-mongering that organised religions use to control their followers.

 

Nah. The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam & Christianity) have a monopoly on fear mongering. They have it down to a science. 

 

There is no benefit in knowing anything about reincarnation other than to hook people in and control them into staying within the particular system.

 

We can agree to disagree. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Michael Sternbach]

Am I the only one here who remembers that Michael Winn is a forum member? I mean, it's no wonder that he doesn't post here often -- seems few teachers do anymore, actually -- but forum rules should still apply.

I agree with you. I "thanked" Andrei for his profound explanation of how one might view reincarnation from a Daoist perspective, but calling a teacher - or their work, for that matter - held in high regard by many "bullshit" is tactless. And not only because Michael Winn is a forum member. There are more appropriate ways to express one's opinion, to be sure.

[thelerner]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I assume Winn & Chia's beliefs are not 'made up', that they can be found in some (ancient) branches writings on Taoist soul cosmology.

[Marblehead]

Is there anything I can do to help with this discussion?

[Gerard]

The spirit is not even in the body, the physical is just a layer. You are not reincarnating or going through rebirth according to Buddhist belief; one is merely changing their "clothes". New life new "skin" Kind of a transformation.

 

High level Taoists (and from any other spiritual tradition, like some high level Hindus and Buddhists I have met in Asia) don't bother with it since everything is returning to the Dao, the Source of Everything, the High Spirit, Home if you like. The closer you are to it (according to the number of lives you have lived and your proximity to the point of origin, the more you have evolved as a spirit, hence things like ability to understand universal truths, see past lives, premonition communication with beings living in other realms, etc. become a natural process. You see things others absolutely can't or won't believe simply because they haven't opened enough doors/crossed gates of perception.

 

Just go with the flow, my friend and things will take care of themselves.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Reincarnation is a buddhist thing.If that is your truth go for it. A few people believe in God and heaven the exclusive club members only if that is your truth go for it.

 

The Tao is simply logical. There’s no mysticism or need for invisible sky gods or some weird belief that you’re important enough to be reincarnated – you simply return to the Tao when you die. And you’re already there anyway, so what’s the big deal?

 

In Taoism death is neither feared nor desired instead a person enjoys living.

 

Since life and death are each other’s companions, why worry about them? All beings are one. 

 

A person is eternal in their own life.

 

A recurring theme happens with taoist thought LIVING we can not contemplate death if we are not alive

.

Speculation of after life is a waste of time unless one can profit or have advantage and those thoughts of profit and advantage are so stuck in the mud the person has not yet experienced life IMO.

[Oneironaut]

Reincarnation is a buddhist thing.If that is your truth go for it.

 

But there are many different kinds of Taoists. I'm sure they all believe different things and this further confuses everything. 

 

The Tao is simply logical. There’s no mysticism or need for invisible sky gods or some weird belief that you’re important enough to be reincarnated

 

The average everyday person think qigong is for crazies and old people with nothing better to do. The concept of chi/ki is not scientifically accepted and falls outside the realm of logic. The scientific community HEAVILY scrutinzes and rejects anything having to do with chi and throws it under the label of metaphysical baggage. Even yin yang theory is WRONG according to modern scientific thought. No logic here. 

 

Since life and death are each other’s companions, why worry about them? All beings are one. 

 

Then whats the point of life itself? Or cultivation practices such as neidan? 

 

Speculation of after life is a waste of time unless one can profit or have advantage and those thoughts of profit and advantage are so stuck in the mud the person has not yet experienced life IMO.

 

It's not a waste of time at all. In my experiences it works the other way around. Leaving it all in the hands of some invisible man in the clouds is a more passive way of religion asserting their control. 

[Oneironaut]

Something else that further confuses the situation is that there are tons of Buddhists that reject the Brahmanic and Hindu concepts of reincarnation. The argument is that Shakyamuni himself was never a proponent of the concept of rebirth/reincarnation. He also rejected it.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Michael Sternbach]

Something else that further confuses the situation is that there are tons of Buddhists that reject the Brahmanic and Hindu concepts of reincarnation. The argument is that Shakyamuni himself was never a proponent of the concept of rebirth/reincarnation. He also rejected it.

 

I strongly agree with you regarding the value of metaphysical thought, despite its difficulties. Anything that can help us understand where and what we are (at) is crucial to our existence and evolution.

 

How the Buddhist view(s) of reincarnation deviate(s) from the Hindu view would be a topic worthy of a thread of its own, however, right here, we don't need to let this confuse us, we are just trying to explore the Daoist take on it.

[Kongming]

Reincarnation is a buddhist thing.If that is your truth go for it.

 

It's also been a Daoist thing among a wide array of Daoists throughout history and is the viewpoint of Quanzhen Daoists, the primary living form of Daoism in China today.

 

The Tao is simply logical. There’s no mysticism or need for invisible sky gods or some weird belief that you’re important enough to be reincarnated – you simply return to the Tao when you die. And you’re already there anyway, so what’s the big deal?

 

If everyone returns to the Dao when they die, what is the point of any effort toward the Dao such as all the various practices Daoists have engaged in throughout history? Why do the early Daoist texts speak of attaining or realizing the Dao (dedao 得道)? If everyone returns to the Dao regardless of how they lived their life, doesn't that in turn mean that there is no ultimate qualitative difference in how one lives ones life and that a murderer, rapist, buffoon, who is addicted to desires will have the same end as the sage?

[Marblehead]

It's also been a Daoist thing among a wide array of Daoists throughout history and is the viewpoint of Quanzhen Daoists, the primary living form of Daoism in China today.

Early Daoism is more at immortality than reincarnation.  But yes, today's Religious Daoists are mostly connected with Buddhism therefore it would include reincarnation.

 

If everyone returns to the Dao when they die, what is the point of any effort toward the Dao such as all the various practices Daoists have engaged in throughout history? Why do the early Daoist texts speak of attaining or realizing the Dao (dedao 得道)? If everyone returns to the Dao regardless of how they lived their life, doesn't that in turn mean that there is no ultimate qualitative difference in how one lives ones life and that a murderer, rapist, buffoon, who is addicted to desires will have the same end as the sage?

You looking for human morality within the De of Dao?  Good luck with that one.

[Kongming]

Early Daoism is more at immortality than reincarnation.  But yes, today's Religious Daoists are mostly connected with Buddhism therefore it would include reincarnation.

 

Read the citation I posted in my first post on this thread. This is one way of viewing how early Daoism viewed transmigration or metamorphosis, and incidentally the exegesis given in that citation is how many of the Daoists who accept transmigration also read the early material.

 

Immortality, i.e. timelessness and the attainment of the Dao, was the goal of early and all Daoism, but that doesn't mean that everyone united with the Dao and became an immortal after death. 

 

You looking for human morality within the De of Dao?  Good luck with that one.

 

No, I used morality as one example among others (such as those who actual pursued Daoist practices and way of life vs. those who didn't) to show how there is a qualitative difference in different people and therefore not everyone will have the same postmortem situation. If such were the case, why bother with anything (certainly not Daoist discipline, praxis, or asceticism) since we are all assured of the same end? Might as well embrace the YOLO lifestyle and do whatever you want since uniting with the Dao after death is guaranteed.

[Wu Ming Jen]

But there are many different kinds of Taoists. I'm sure they all believe different things and this further confuses everything. 

 

 

The average everyday person think qigong is for crazies and old people with nothing better to do. The concept of chi/ki is not scientifically accepted and falls outside the realm of logic. The scientific community HEAVILY scrutinzes and rejects anything having to do with chi and throws it under the label of metaphysical baggage. Even yin yang theory is WRONG according to modern scientific thought. No logic here. 

 

 

Then whats the point of life itself? Or cultivation practices such as neidan? 

 

 

It's not a waste of time at all. In my experiences it works the other way around. Leaving it all in the hands of some invisible man in the clouds is a more passive way of religion asserting their control. 

There are two schools you can be a hermit or you can live in society get married have kids, drink. The wudang clan of the latter like to party in moderation. No belief systems or reincarnation in either school you choose. 

 

Science only proves yin yang theory and should be obvious  it is OBSERVATION when you get into it. the logic is that we experience it everyday. Western science can not accept something experienced if it can not be measured. 

 

To find meaning in life is a duality, that should be eliminated. Here are the Taoist precepts health, wealth and happiness. no mention of suffering is that weird?

[Wu Ming Jen]

It's also been a Daoist thing among a wide array of Daoists throughout history and is the viewpoint of Quanzhen Daoists, the primary living form of Daoism in China today.

 

 

If everyone returns to the Dao when they die, what is the point of any effort toward the Dao such as all the various practices Daoists have engaged in throughout history? Why do the early Daoist texts speak of attaining or realizing the Dao (dedao 得道)? If everyone returns to the Dao regardless of how they lived their life, doesn't that in turn mean that there is no ultimate qualitative difference in how one lives ones life and that a murderer, rapist, buffoon, who is addicted to desires will have the same end as the sage?

Immortality, confusing transmutation as reincarnation turning the base self to a higher self being a better person is done living as we are taught are lessons.

 

No room for gross unnatural behaviors like the gross things you have mentioned. Why war vets have shell shock pstd because it is unnatural behavior. when we discover our true selves we discover what is natural with out poison thoughts and behaviors found in others.

[Kongming]

There are two schools you can be a hermit or you can live in society get married have kids, drink. The wudang clan of the latter like to party in moderation. No belief systems or reincarnation in either school you choose. 

 

My point is less about lifestyle (such as hermit vs. being in society) so much as the difference between the zhenren 真人 or "true man" "perfected man", the sage, the immortal, etc. and the ordinary man. Now, at the Absolute level it may be said that they are the same, but at the relative level there is certainly a difference. For example, the Daodejing 15 says of the former:

 

The masters of this ancient path are mysterious and profound

Their inner states baffle all inquiry

Their depths go beyond all knowing

 

Zhuangzi says of them:

 

There must first be a True Man before there can be true knowledge. What do I mean by a True Man? The True Man of ancient times did not rebel against want, did not grow proud in plenty, and did not plan his affairs. A man like this could commit an error and not regret it, could meet with success and not make a show. A man like this could climb the high places and not be frightened, could enter the water and not get wet, could enter the fire and not get burned. His knowledge was able to climb all the way up to the Way like this.

 

Other early Daoist material states that their minds are so perfectly calm and unmoving that if a mountain were to crumble in front of them they wouldn't lose their composure in the least. The Huainanzi states of these perfected men:

 

Life and death make no difference to him; that is why he is called supremely spiritual (shen, divine).

 

The one who is called the True Man (chen-jen) is naturally one with Tao; he has as if not having; he is full as if empty; he dwells in unity without knowing duality, governs his inner person and ignores the external. He clearly knows Grand Simplicity (t'ai-su); and without ado, he returns to the uncarved block(p'u); he incorporates the Root, embraces the divine, and frolics between heaven and earth. Radiant, he roams beyond the dust and impurities, and goes hither and yon in aimless wandering. Immense and vast! 

 

Without learning, he knows; without looking, he sees; without acting, he achieves; without any effort, he discerns. He responds impulsively, he moves when solicited; without willing, he goes as a light shines or like a [lightning] flash. Having the Tao for himself, he waits and conforms. Embracing the Root of Great Purity (T'ai-ch'ing), there is nothing which delights or disturbs him. Vast and grand, he is empty; pure and quiet, he is without thought or worry. Burning marshes would not warm him; the freezing Yellow or Han rivers would not cool him; a formidable thunderclap striking a mountain would not frighten him; a formidable wind obscuring the sun would not trouble him.

 

In short, there is a qualitative difference between the sage and the ordinary man, indeed an ontological difference. The question is, does this true or perfected man have the exact same end as the ordinary man? It seems unlikely. If that were the case, why should one aim to become a zhenren when all one has to do is wait a very short time before death comes and one can also unite with the Dao and become immortal?

 

Hence why I personally believe my first post in this thread to be the best way of looking at the issue.

[Marblehead]

Read the citation I posted in my first post on this thread. This is one way of viewing how early Daoism viewed transmigration or metamorphosis, and incidentally the exegesis given in that citation is how many of the Daoists who accept transmigration also read the early material.

 

Immortality, i.e. timelessness and the attainment of the Dao, was the goal of early and all Daoism, but that doesn't mean that everyone united with the Dao and became an immortal after death.

I'm with you here.  I mostly use my own words and sometimes I make up a word if there isn't one that presents the thought I am trying to communicate.  I use "Transmutation".  So in a way it does suggest a continuance after death but does not include the persona of the dead person.

 

No, I used morality as one example among others (such as those who actual pursued Daoist practices and way of life vs. those who didn't) to show how there is a qualitative difference in different people and therefore not everyone will have the same postmortem situation. If such were the case, why bother with anything (certainly not Daoist discipline, praxis, or asceticism) since we are all assured of the same end? Might as well embrace the YOLO lifestyle and do whatever you want since uniting with the Dao after death is guaranteed.

I knew better but I wanted to play.  We follow the Way of Dao (as much as possible and practical) so that we have a more peaceful and content life.  And in most cases we must comply with society's rules.  Can't be walking around naked at Wal-Mart.

 

And yes, presents at Christmas time has always been an excellent motivator for a child to be good.