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Not damaging the body

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Was having dinner with a friend whose biography I'm thinking of writing someday, not so much for his own story as for the history of his ancestors, one of the most powerful families in China in the 400 years preceding the revolution.   A couple were sitting at the table next to ours, and the woman had all the telltale signs of having altered absolutely everything she could about her body, face, and hair, in order to look young glamorous Hollywood. 

 

My friend is a great fan of the ancient Chinese art of gossip, of disassembling any person under his scrutiny with innocent cruelty of a child tearing apart a fly to see how it's put together.  He treated me to a comprehensive analysis of the woman at the next table, from the "products"-heavy top of her head to the bottom of her Louboutin pumps (to die for, especially if the goal is to permanently dislocate one's uterus out of its natural anatomical position by wearing heels this high), and then came the verdict: "Who is she?  She has erased absolutely everything about who she is out of herself, except for the fact that she has money.  I can see she has money.  And I can't see anything else.  Who are you, lady?  Your eyes say "Botox," your smile says "Restylane," your cheeks say "implants," your teeth say "veneers," your breasts say "silicone," your nails say "acrylic," your hair says "extensions, ammonia," your eyebrows say "wax strips," your eyelashes say "nylon," your handbag, watch, shoes say "money."  Who are you?.."  

Edited by Taomeow
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Your questions here were answered by people with a different understanding than you. It will do you as much good to argue against their perception, as it would them to argue against yours.

 

I can often be found arguing against the views of others. This is (I believe) generally intended as exploratory exercise, a way to refine my own beliefs, rather than a wholehearted desire to change people's perceptions (or a genuine belief that it is possible to). Though I will admit to having been irritated a number of times in my time posting on TDB.

 

That we each have a different understanding of things should not necessarily prevent us from trying to understand the views of others, should it?

Edited by dustybeijing
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Who are you, lady?  Your eyes say "Botox," your smile says "Restylane," your cheeks say "implants," your teeth say "veneers," your breasts say "silicon," your nails say "acrylic," your hair says "extensions, ammonia," your eyebrows say "wax strips," your eyelashes say "nylon," your handbag, watch, shoes say "money."  Who are you?.."  

 

Realizing that many people see no difference between tattooing and plastic surgery, I feel like I will be seen as something of a hypocrite agreeing with you about this, but I am bemused by some people's need to 'improve' themselves.

 

I suppose that, in the case of a rich Chinese woman, the biggest factor is showing off her riches. Got the money? Prove it. Spend it in unnecessary ways, show people that who you are is simply "richer than you, bitch." Another cultural meme that I cannot quite comprehend.

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I can often be found arguing against the views of others. This is (I believe) generally intended as exploratory exercise, a way to refine my own beliefs, rather than a wholehearted desire to change people's perceptions (or a genuine belief that it is possible to). Though I will admit to having been irritated a number of times in my time posting on TDB.

 

That we each have a different understanding of things should not necessarily prevent us from trying to understand the views of others, should it?

 

In my experience if there is argument there is something being protected. This need to protect something often inhibits understanding.

 

I don't think, and didn't say, we should abandon understanding... but you can argue with me if that's what works for you. :)

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I'm reminded of hexagram 22, which can be seen as the dynamic of grace.... or the dynamic of adornment.

 

Illumination beneath the mountain - who can see it? No one, if it is hidden.... and yet... in those who choose the simple life, have little to speak for except their health.... and yet these people often radiate a happiness, a peace, a grace that can be felt even when not acknowledged. Perhaps the Quakers demonstrate this well.

 

And when the mountain does not hide the fire.... the fire is not contained, not still and stable, not clearly illuminating.... it comes out from within, eager to show itself, to demonstrate its worth though embellishing, exaggerating, adorning the surface at the expense of the internal.

 

Tom Brown Jr. has a book titled Grandfather, and I recall a dream beneath a tree where he followed his spirit guide on a journey up an old stream bed, with forest on either side. The forest on the right was twisted and stagnant, with trees and bushes growing against each other and struggling for light and water. The forest on the left felt peaceful and harmonious. The forest on the left had been inhabited long ago by the tribe of the spirit guide, and had been cultivated very delicately. When they needed to cut a branch for an arrow or bow, they would not take the most suitable branch for that purpose, but would take the branch that might end up struggling with others, that might be the weakest; they would take that which when removed would have the most harmonious result on the forest over time.

 

When we understand how our actions manifest over time, we can choose to avoid actions that do not serve where we want to end up. If we want to be healthy and live a long, happy life, we might come to understand that a simple life without embellishment and unnecessary desires may actually have the best result, while many other choices merely spend the internal to indulge some desire that will only serve us temporarily. Of course everything is relative. We must all choose on our own.

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Realizing that many people see no difference between tattooing and plastic surgery, I feel like I will be seen as something of a hypocrite agreeing with you about this, but I am bemused by some people's need to 'improve' themselves.

 

I suppose that, in the case of a rich Chinese woman, the biggest factor is showing off her riches. Got the money? Prove it. Spend it in unnecessary ways, show people that who you are is simply "richer than you, bitch." Another cultural meme that I cannot quite comprehend.

 

Yeah, not Chinese though, American woman.  (My friend is Chinese but he lives here in CA.).  When I was in China, I marveled at the multitude and variety of naturally beautiful faces, especially at things I hadn't seen in the thoroughly plastic SoCal -- well, not so much "in a long time" as "ever:"  really thick regal eyebrows, and in the Muslim quarter, eyebrows that grow together forming a magnificent bird with its wings spread to the temples and its beak looking down the nose (here 7/8 of the volume of such eyebrows would be exterminated with extreme prejudice, after contemptuously labeling them a "unibrow"), teeth that follow the smile rather than doing their own thing, as they do here because the dentist has shaped them to a standard that the facial muscles will never be able to harmonize with...  Faces that instantly tell a story.  "Peasant, no future in the countryside, moved to the big city to work hard toward being happy."  "Scholar, thirsty for knowledge, hungry for culture."  "Mother, feed them well, put my heart and liver in every bowl of rice, love them with all I've got."  "Tough cookie, started out with nothing, but will get everything because I will never give up fighting for my dreams."  And on and on -- a caleidoscope of faces that tell stories about who these people are. 

 

And that's who we really are.  Our stories.  If the only story we have to tell is the story of how we rewrite and edit it, approaching our own body as the text to rewrite and edit, and photoshop and repaint, and edit again, and again, that's a story too...  but it gets old after a few hundred million repetitions.  Don't you think?..

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I'm reminded of hexagram 22, which can be seen as the dynamic of grace.... or the dynamic of adornment.

 

Ha, I know this one well!  I got it on a number of occasions over the years whenever I consulted the I Ching about highlighting my hair or investing into a particularly expensive moisturizer or suchlike.  Most of the time the I Ching approved of my plan.  There's nothing wrong with "adornment" -- in fact, very serious feng shui masters tend to favor external presentation enhanced with certain adornments (not the ones permanently altering the body though) because, the argument goes, your outer surface is your yang, your external interface with the world, and as such matters, and must be respected and supported.  

 

Any permanent "adornments" also enhance yang, but we don't need to enhance yang all the time for all purposes.  Which is why you may wear lipstick to a social function but not to meditation, not to a good night's sleep, not to singing your child a lullaby, not to situations that favor withdrawing inward, looking and feeling within rather than "interfacing."  So the I Ching won't say "no" to highlighted hair, but only because the decision is not irreversible, the yang enhancement is not permanent.  If at a later date it doesn't work as intended anymore, there's always the "back to nature" option.  I think it's not a bad criterion when trying to decide what to do or not to do for "adornment." 

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Interesting.... I have trouble not relating this idea of nurturing the external Yang and such ideas to practices of the long-standing patriarchal age we seem to be coming out of.

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 Faces that instantly tell a story.  "Peasant, no future in the countryside, moved to the big city to work hard toward being happy."  "Scholar, thirsty for knowledge, hungry for culture."  "Mother, feed them well, put my heart and liver in every bowl of rice, love them with all I've got."  "Tough cookie, started out with nothing, but will get everything because I will never give up fighting for my dreams."  And on and on -- a caleidoscope of faces that tell stories about who these people are. 

 

And that's who we really are.  Our stories.  If the only story we have to tell is the story of how we rewrite and edit it, approaching our own body as the text to rewrite and edit, and photoshop and repaint, and edit again, and again, that's a story too...  but it gets old after a few hundred million repetitions.  Don't you think?..

 

Love it. As delightful and refreshing to encounter as a cool spring in an inhospitable desert.

 

 

M

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Interesting.... I have trouble not relating this idea of nurturing the external Yang and such ideas to practices of the long-standing patriarchal age we seem to be coming out of.

 

Well, yes, most people are thoroughly confused by now as to what yin and yang mean (if they ever think of stuff in terms of yin and yang at all that is).  

 

Another anecdote while I'm on a roll.  A friend of mine who is French but has been permanently living in CA for a bunch of years went back to visit family in Paris.  She used to work in fashion there, but it's been years since she last wore anything other than what a natural-things-favoring kind of California woman will wear -- T-shirt, jeans , sneakers.  Her uncle looked her over and said, "You look good, but...  sheesh...  do you have to dress like this?..  You would look so much better if you wore heels!"  Without missing a beat, she reparteed, "So would you!"  This left the uncle quite speechless...  he's not a very tall man. :D  

 

She told me that in about the times of the three musketeers, it was men who wore high heels, to enhance their butt...  And in ancient Rome, it was prostitutes -- required by law to wear high heels -- to make them tall enough for the potential client to spot them from afar, and to tell them apart from women who are not seeking clients.       

Edited by Taomeow
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People usually want others to recognize them for who they really are inside... not how they appear.

 

When we come to identify strongly with something, we can usually find some way to let others know about this on our surface. And yet even this only attracts those interested in that, but not really who we are.

 

The old adage is that we get what we ask for. This can be a blessing or a curse, depending on whether or not we really know what we're asking for. Sometimes going to a meetup group about hiking is a great way to find others who like hiking.... even though you might not find the type of person who likes going hiking in smaller groups. Sometimes dressing pretty can attract those who like those who dress pretty, but hard to say if that person will like you when you don't look pretty.

 

Interesting to surrender desire and adornment all-together. For what you get without asking for anything is often very revealing and poignant.

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The difference, then, between me and a Taoist is that I see the actions that I take as a continuation of the natural order of things.

 

I don't see how this is different from a Toaists view.

 

If a human modifying his physical appearance goes beyond 'nature' into the realm of the perverse, what about modifying the mind/spirit? Should we not just allow ourselves to be as we are, forget all philosophy and spiritual practice? Then isn't Taoism itself a perversion?

 

Sure any sort of modification that goes beyond nature would be pervers, however i think you really have to ask yourself what is natural and what is not. Doaism is to follow our nature, all daoistic practices is to see the natural in oneself. In fact a lot of the practiced is focused on the philosophy of wei wu wei.

 

Firstly: As I think I've mentioned somewhere, I find it hard to believe that a single member of this forum hasn't altered their physical appearance in any way in their lifetime. You cut and wash and brush your hair, trim your nails, wear clothes that you like the look of.. and most of this is done with factory-made tools, produced from felled trees and slaughtered animals and chemicals pumped from the recesses of the earth. Most of us listen to music, or appreciate art, or enjoy cinema, or practice exercise or cultivation of some sort. So let's not pretend that none of us have any hand in the modification and destruction of nature; let's not pretend that we sit around mesmerized by flowers and never modifying anything.

 

Itäs hard not to in this society, but art does not have to be unnatural, it can be a natural expression of ones inner life. Taking care of ones body is not unnaturall either.

 

Secondly: I was perfectly content with my physical appearance before I had any tattoos. If tattooing didn't exist, I'd be fine. But it does exist, and I'm a fairly experimental person...

 

Now this is the question, if you where content then what is it that merits the change?

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Sure any sort of modification that goes beyond nature would be pervers, however i think you really have to ask yourself what is natural and what is not. Doaism is to follow our nature, all daoistic practices is to see the natural in oneself. In fact a lot of the practiced is focused on the philosophy of wei wu wei.

 

"beyond nature"

"What is natural and what is not"

"See the natural in oneself"

 

What is "beyond nature"?

What is there that is not natural?

What in ourselves is unnatural, beyond the natural way of things? How is that possible?

 

 

Itäs hard not to in this society, but art does not have to be unnatural, it can be a natural expression of ones inner life. Taking care of ones body is not unnaturall either.

 

Indeed, I don't imagine that you're all long-bearded, scraggly-haired, and raven-clawed.

 

I think there are 2 options: either everything that we do is 'natural', or everything that we do that the other animals don't do is 'unnatural'; in which case there's no hope for us, because our daily lives revolve around doing things that the other animals cannot begin to comprehend.

 

Bears don't get hair cuts; nor do lions, nor dolphins (ah, though this might be due to a lack of hair, I suppose :closedeyes: ). Monkeys might use tools, but they don't practice qigong or eat in restaurants or discuss the merits of body modification...

 

I think one thing (relevant to this discussion) must be faced up to: humans have evolved to be vain, to groom and fuss over appearance. You're right, taking care of one's body is not unnatural; reproduction drives all life, and taking care of oneself is a large part of that. And in the spirit of reproduction, humans have evolved our own variety of strategies for courtship, for attracting mates and bonding with each other. Isn't that all natural, then?

 

 

Now this is the question, if you where content then what is it that merits the change?

 

Challenge; experience; unfathomable desire..

Edited by dustybeijing

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I think there are 2 options: either everything that we do is 'natural', or everything that we do that the other animals don't do is 'unnatural'; in which case there's no hope for us, because our daily lives revolve around doing things that the other animals cannot begin to comprehend.

 

I don't agree with this, our "natural behaviour" is different from animals natural behaviour. But i also think that the idea that naturallness is about natural behaviour is inherently wrong. Naturallness can be shaped, and it is through De that we should find this naturallness.

 

I think one thing (relevant to this discussion) must be faced up to: humans have evolved to be vain, to groom and fuss over appearance. You're right, taking care of one's body is not unnatural; reproduction drives all life, and taking care of oneself is a large part of that. And in the spirit of reproduction, humans have evolved our own variety of strategies for courtship, for attracting mates and bonding with each other. Isn't that all natural, then?

 

Is being vanity a genetic trait then? I don't think that all our social behaviour is natural, I think a lot of it is unnaturall, and that it is more built on our insecurties than our own realisations of ourself.

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It´s possible to take the philosophy of not adorning oneself too far. Just ask my mother. I don´t pay much attention to my external presentation, and I´m trying to change my au natural ways. Adorning oneself can be a way of respecting others. Acknowledging that we live in a social context, and showing consideration for other people.

 

I´m not likely to get tattoos or wear high heels any time soon, but modifying one´s appearance to express one´s sensibilities or fit in with other people -- it´s not always a bad thing.

 

Liminal

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I've have some friends who stopped taking showers, washing their hair, etc, etc. Eating a simple vegan lifestyle, they didn't have many of the smells we try to cover up with deodorant and perfume. Consuming animal products and processed foods alters the human scent in profound ways, and once one is cleansed of that... well taking a walk in the woods is a different experience. Animals have a very keen sense of smell, and they are able to detect us by smell very well. Same is true for energy.... we've probably all read of how animals can become very attracted to humans at higher levels of cultivation. Another side-effect of our interferences.

 

Anyway... my friend would roll around in the sand by a beach every now and then, and found that her skin/pores fundamentally changed as the body adjusted to a different paradigm of cleanliness.

 

Can also develop the tongue and mouth muscles to very effectively clean the mouth. After doing this for a while one realizes how weak one's tongue used to be, and how effective shooting saliva between teeth can be at cleaning them, etc. At higher levels of cultivation different substances become secreted from the salivary glands as well, like opiorphin.

 

Too, walking without shoes one forms a deeper bond with the earth and becomes more energetically supported. Takes time to cultivate, and without the energetic connection this can be very hard on one's feet. Yet for some native american tribes running was the main means of transportation, and they were able to run very far.

 

Yes being healthy and clean is natural, but the "civilized human standard" is not the only way, or even the best.

 

Sure I do my best to fit into society, having come to recognize when I stand out in some way. I own very few clothes and shop at thrift stores, where many very well made items can be found for very little, and I wear them until they wear out. In recognizing how I depend on the ways of modern society that are unsustainable, I am slowly trying to work towards supporting sustainable alternatives, and live in a city that is very supportive of this. In another city I lived in having a beard attracted attention from law enforcement, while here it is very common. In the daoist classics the "true human" is described as looking disheveled and unkempt, wearing a patchwork shirt.

 

There are many ways of not damaging the body, and many ways to be out of the box while appearing to be within it. This is all part of Zhuangzi's walking two roads, Laozi's flowing like water, and so on. After all we are quite contained by the gravities of the solar system, but to really unite with all we must be able to connect to what is beyond that paradigm as well, even as we remain within it.

Edited by Daeluin
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I Adorning oneself can be a way of respecting others. Acknowledging that we live in a social context, and showing consideration for other people.

 

 

 

Liminal

Good point.

 

When it comes to a beard, tats or hairstyle on a personal level its all superficial adornment of self and does not need any attention by reading made up preconceived thoughts of what it MEANS to ones self into it.

 

Respecting the body and our ancestors is very simple to understand being at a deeper level then the superficial.

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I don't agree with this, our "natural behaviour" is different from animals natural behaviour. But i also think that the idea that naturallness is about natural behaviour is inherently wrong. Naturallness can be shaped, and it is through De that we should find this naturallness.

 

I genuinely have no idea what 'naturalness' you're talking about now.

 

Naturalness can be shaped? Naturalness is not about natural behaviour? So what exactly does 'natural' mean?

 

 

Is being vanity a genetic trait then? I don't think that all our social behaviour is natural, I think a lot of it is unnaturall, and that it is more built on our insecurties than our own realisations of ourself.

 

To say that vanity is a 'genetic trait' is imprecise. I would say that it is a natural human tendency -- that is, something humans tend toward because of certain circumstances in our development/evolution -- to consider our appearance. Not all humans are vain, but almost all have, at least in a public environment, a preference for behaving and smelling and looking a certain way.

 

I don't believe that if a man grows up all alone, with no human contact or language, he will make any effort each day to look 'nice'; but if he sees his reflection in a mirror or pool of water, he will become curious and experiment with his appearance.

Edited by dustybeijing
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The term natural seems to cause a lot of confusion. It is often said that one may learn much about the dao by studying nature - not human nature, but nature. Why is this? What is the difference between human nature and the rest of nature and why isn't human nature also natural?

 

I think the answer can be found pretty simply. In "nature" there are often-times species that seek dominating roles. And yet many times an interesting balance is struck between them all, and an ecosystem is born. Ecosystems tend to be incredibly complex, with many species participating, and there are noticeable imbalances created when any of these species vanish from the system. Thus the balance that is attained is ever changing and very delicate. Anyone who plays with a balance beam or balance board quickly realizes that balance hovers on a very delicate and fine edge.

 

Where other species attempt at growing into domination and have their growth checked, guided, and refined by other elements within the system, the human species has discovered how to overcome most obstacles presented by the local environment. Many of our actions lead away from nurturing systems of balance, and even though we tend to not recognize this from a desire to nurture and support the ecosystems surrounding us, we do tend to recognize the ill effects of some of our actions over time. Over time we've come to respect the necessity of keeping each other in balance via laws and governments, and our growth in population means we can't all expel waste into the rivers and oceans and still have fresh drinking water, we come to recognize can't cut down all the trees or we risk landslides or desertification, can't grow thousands of acres of the same species without inviting that which will wipe out that species, etc, etc, etc. So we recognize that our interferences are not sustainable even for supporting our own selfish goals, and we take measures to fix them. It doesn't take much to recognize that what has become known as "human nature" is largely fed by greed and is not presently healthy or sustainable. Perhaps as we continue to recognize the errors in our ways and work to adjust them, we will come to value the approach of ecosystems: when we all support each other and seek ever more refined balances, we increase the quality of that balance and enable ever increasing diversity within. The stronger the diversity, the longer the balance can be maintained after extreme events reshape things.

 

From this perspective it is easier to understand naturalness as that which supports balance.

 

In the grand scheme of things everything balances out, and thus Laozi remains smiling even at the suffering of others. And yet, if one can see the path of balance - see how close it is to us - why walk in the direction of imbalance? It is up to each of us to decide how to find balance in our lives. There are many layers to balance - best to follow the ones that are clearly presented to us in the present moment. The journey of 1,000 miles is walked step by step.

Edited by Daeluin
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Natural, un-contrived, without thought of gain or loss, good or bad, short hair or long hair. Running naked in the jungle or wearing layers of clothes in the north country.

 

Environment requires one to use the natural laws of nature to ones advantage as stillness overcomes heat and movement overcomes cold. Humans and Gods that are separate from nature have lost their way.

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The term natural seems to cause a lot of confusion. It is often said that one may learn much about the dao by studying nature - not human nature, but nature. Why is this? What is the difference between human nature and the rest of nature and why isn't human nature also natural?

 

An idea that I find relevant: the distinction between 'natural' and 'man-made' / 'artificial' is itself man-made.

 

 

Where other species attempt at growing into domination and have their growth checked, guided, and refined by other elements within the system, the human species has discovered how to overcome most obstacles presented by the local environment. Many of our actions lead away from nurturing systems of balance, and even though we tend to not recognize this from a desire to nurture and support the ecosystems surrounding us, we do tend to recognize the ill effects of some of our actions over time. Over time we've come to respect the necessity of keeping each other in balance via laws and governments, and our growth in population means we can't all expel waste into the rivers and oceans and still have fresh drinking water, we come to recognize can't cut down all the trees or we risk landslides or desertification, can't grow thousands of acres of the same species without inviting that which will wipe out that species, etc, etc, etc. So we recognize that our interferences are not sustainable even for supporting our own selfish goals, and we take measures to fix them. It doesn't take much to recognize that what has become known as "human nature" is largely fed by greed and is not presently healthy or sustainable. Perhaps as we continue to recognize the errors in our ways and work to adjust them, we will come to value the approach of ecosystems: when we all support each other and seek ever more refined balances, we increase the quality of that balance and enable ever increasing diversity within. The stronger the diversity, the longer the balance can be maintained after extreme events reshape things.

 

From this perspective it is easier to understand naturalness as that which supports balance.

 

In the grand scheme of things everything balances out, and thus Laozi remains smiling even at the suffering of others. And yet, if one can see the path of balance - see how close it is to us - why walk in the direction of imbalance? It is up to each of us to decide how to find balance in our lives. There are many layers to balance - best to follow the ones that are clearly presented to us in the present moment. The journey of 1,000 miles is walked step by step.

 

We seem to agree and somewhat disagree at the same time.

 

Balance is the thing... but as it is not natural for everything to be balanced all the time, we cannot equate nature with 'perfect balance'. There is no such thing...

 

Many forms of life, and other worldly (earthquakes, volcanoes, population cycles..) and otherworldly (meteors..evil aliens?) processes, disrupt what may be seen as balanced ecosystems. The Earth has seen all sorts of turmoil, some of it nothing compared to the silly things humans are doing, but all of it natural.

 

As you say, eventually, everything balances out. So it is short-sighted of us to think that just because our current actions as a species are imbalanced (read: fucking stupid), we are an 'unnatural' phenomenon. We are, as a species, very young and, compared to the dinosaurs, eventually probably a short-lived phenomenon on Earth.

 

We are not separate from nature, and we will discover this when the Balance catches up with us in the long-term. But we'll still have been natural...

 

 

 

Natural, un-contrived, without thought of gain or loss, good or bad, short hair or long hair. Running naked in the jungle or wearing layers of clothes in the north country.

 

All life is gain and loss. And clothes are contrived (contrived = deliberately created).

 

 

Environment requires one to use the natural laws of nature to ones advantage as stillness overcomes heat and movement overcomes cold.

 

Every human creation that we find useful utilizes the so-called 'laws of nature' to its advantage, no?

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Missing the point of uncontrived. loss and gain require a very narrow vision only seeing a sliver instead of the whole pie. Necessity is the mother of invention.

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Anything can be justified from some perspective. If we think nothing matters in the end then sure we can do whatever the fuck we want, and none of it is wrong. Who cares if we screw over the planet... they say all life has been wiped out here before and eventually it returned, and will do so again even after nuclear bombs wipe out everything. Etc, etc, etc.

 

And yet.... we seem to think highly of, and greatly value the present state of diversity and balance on this planet. So rather than think of the grand scheme of things and using our intelligence to justify things (even though the more we cultivate, the more we realize how little we actually know), we have the option of simply flowing with what is right in front of us and making our small choices to move toward balance in the present moment. We have a great gift in being able to self-refine.

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