Vajra strands

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Chang]

You were offering your opinion.

 

Before setting your fingers to the keyboard once more it may be useful to remember that you also are simply offering your opinion.

 

You may well consider it authoritative but others have the right to disagree.

 

That's your interpretation.

I rather think that having strong ambition, high mental capacity (in other words: a "powerful" and coherent personality or Ego) and the right training method are the keys to success.

I also think that this is true for success in everyday life as in spiritual life.

 

Again this is your offered opinion and others may well consider a "powerful and coherent personality" can best be described as arrogant. You may also do well to give thought to the suggestion that having a "high mental capacity" is best left to the consideration and judgement of others rather than oneself.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Sorry, they are not.

Devotion is taking refuge.

Bodhicitta is awakening the mind/heart.

Different and distinct practices - not interchangeable.

 

These are not practices, they are sincere naturally occuring states which arise naturally from the heart.

Love and devotion go together.

Love produces devotion.

Devotion without love is a fool's game.

[steve]

You were offering your opinion.

 

I can't take credit for that - it is the standard practice in both Buddhist and Bön Dzogchen, dating back to the earliest known writings in each tradition.

 

 

That's your interpretation.

 

Actually not, I was sharing something I learned in retreat.

 

 

I rather think that having strong ambition, high mental capacity (in other words: a "powerful" and coherent personality or Ego) and the right training method are the keys to success.

I also think that this is true for success in everyday life as in spiritual life.

 

That's quite clear, that is your intellect speaking. It does not want to acknowledge that it does not reign supreme.

That approach will continue to reify itself and serve as an obstruction to meaningful spiritual progress.

And that is your prerogative.

 

 

These are not practices, they are sincere naturally occuring states which arise naturally from the heart.

Love and devotion go together.

Love produces devotion.

Devotion without love is a fool's game.

 

In fact, they are specific practices and are an integral part of the Dzogchen ngondro.

 

Of course they arise spontaneously when the mind and heart are not obstructed.

That doesn't mean it is not useful to practice for those of us who still live in samsara.

 

Certainly they go together as does everything and everyone in an absolute sense.

In a relative sense they are unique and mutually supportive, but not equivalent.

 

As I spend time practicing them in earnest, I see that the generation of devotion and the generation of bodhicitta are quite unique.

Devotion is based on trust and gratitude.

Bodhicitta is based on empathy .

Some folks find trust easy and empathy hard, some the other way around.

Both are essential...

 

...or not, at your discretion.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Tibetan_Ice]

^{And what exactly does all that have to do with varjra strands?}

[C T]

^{And what exactly does all that have to do with varjra strands?}

You have to be mentally superior to envision them.

 

(or so it seems, but i think not)

[steve]

Reread my quote of Lama Yeshe concerning Milarepa which you didn't address.

This shows another picture.

 

 

Milarepa's example disproves it.

If I were you I wouldn't dare to estimate how many practitioners who achieve a high accomplishment are rather like Milarepa than like you prefer to interpret them.

 

I won't waste my time with most of your reply. But since you seem to have an interest in what Lama Yeshe has to say, he was a very strong advocate for the practice of bodhicitta and devotion. Guru yoga plays a central role in his tradition. You took one quotation out of context to support your position and ignored everything else - . I generally don't quote people much but since you thought it important for me to study Lama Yeshe's words, I'll share some from him and his organization. Here are a few quotes from the Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive:

 

"Guru Puja is the best, quickest path to achieve enlightenment, this was what enabled Milarepa to achieve enlightenment in one lifetime, and this is the quickest way for you to achieve enlightenment. This is the way countless others have achieved enlightenment in one brief lifetime."

 

"Milarepa is one who has completed the whole spiritual path, achieved total control of the body and mind. Many of us are under the control of obscuring disturbing attitudes and under the control of the suffering body. But Milarepa overcame all of these by having total control of the extreme subtle wind and mind by having undisturbed strong and stable guru devotion, totally free forever from any mistakes towards his guru Marpa."

 

"Lack of guru devotion is the heaviest obstacle to fully developing one’s own potential, which is to achieve full enlightenment for the sake of numberless sentient beings."

 

"From guru devotion comes correctly devoting to the virtuous friend with thought and action, and everything comes from that."

 

These and much more come from - http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=340&chid=1290

 

More Lama Yeshe quotes -

 

"Don’t bring your materialistic way of life to your Dharma practice. It doesn’t work. Before meditating, check and correct your motivation. If you do this, your meditation will become much easier and more worthwhile, and your right action will bring realizations. You don’t need to be hungry for realizations, grasping, “Oh, if I do this, will I get some fantastic realizations?” You don’t need expectation; realizations will come automatically. Once you’ve set your mind on the right path, realizations will come of their own accord."

 

"Why are we bored, lonely and lazy? Because we don’t have the will to totally open our hearts to others. If you have the strength of will to totally open your heart to others, you will eliminate laziness, selfishness and loneliness."

 

"Meditation is not on the level of the object, but on that of the subject. You are the business of your meditation."

 

"A guru is a person who can really show you the true nature of your mind and who knows the perfect remedies for your psychological problems. Someone who doesn’t know his own mind can never know others’ minds and therefore cannot be a guru."

 

"You must recognize that your real enemy, the thief who steals your happiness, is the inner thief, the one inside your mind, the one you have cherished since beginningless time. Therefore, make the strong determination to throw him out and to never let him back in."

 

"It’s the foggy mind, the mind that’s attracted to an object [ed. in your case, ZOOM, the rainbow body] and paints a distorted projection onto it, that makes you suffer. That’s all. It’s really quite simple."

 

"The essence of the guru is wisdom: the perfectly clear and radiant state of mind in which bliss and the realization of emptiness are inseparably unified."

 

"Be blissful and enjoy your life; do not let yourself become obsessed with anything. Determine to use the rest of your life to benefit others as much as possible."

 

"Our desires are not limited to the things we can see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. Our mind runs after ideas as greedily as our tongue hungers for tastes."

 

"We should train ourselves not to become engrossed in any of the thoughts continuously arising in our mind. Our consciousness is like a vast ocean with plenty of space for thoughts and emotions to swim about and we should not allow our attention to be distracted by any of them."

 

"The purpose of meditation is not to reach nirvana and then disappear. If that was the case, it would better that you manifested as a flower!"

 

 

I found these in a matter of a few minutes, no doubt much more there...

I agree with you that having a healthy sense of drive and inspiration is very valuable in samsaric and spiritual life. The difference is the motivation (devotion and bodhicitta, not selfish, personal gain) as is adequately expressed in the quotes above.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[C T]

This is what happens when one bumps into another one who believes he possesses an intelligence greater than the majority of the people he interacts with. Everything becomes a challenge. It gets tiring going over the same theatrics day after day. "You can't prove me wrong, therefore i am right". Ya, ok, you win. (thumbs up to you).

[BaguaKicksAss]

your intention to help people like me to become a Buddha is your true intention for spiritual training?

 

Shit, I'd better go rethink some of my vows...

 

LOL kidding . Actually you have a lot of motivation and actually practice.

 

But...

 

As I understand it, that whole concept of self has to go first.

 

That might take you a few days .

 

Then the whole us being better than others thing, I think that is another that has to go.

 

A few more days.....

 

I'm personally still working on not belittling others. Wish me luck (I'll need it lol)

[BaguaKicksAss]

A few of those wise nearly (or completely) enlightened folks* talked about how we have to be extremely grateful for those who frustrate us, who anger us, who we feel are doing it wrong, and etc. as they are very uncommon, and our best teachers .

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

 

...

 

In fact, they are specific practices and are an integral part of the Dzogchen ngondro.

 

Of course they arise spontaneously when the mind and heart are not obstructed.

That doesn't mean it is not useful to practice for those of us who still live in samsara.

 

Certainly they go together as does everything and everyone in an absolute sense.

In a relative sense they are unique and mutually supportive, but not equivalent.

 

As I spend time practicing them in earnest, I see that the generation of devotion and the generation of bodhicitta are quite unique.

Devotion is based on trust and gratitude.

Bodhicitta is based on empathy .

Some folks find trust easy and empathy hard, some the other way around.

Both are essential...

 

...or not, at your discretion.

Secret bodhicitta: I don't think these are ngondro practices...

From Dakini Teachings Padmasambhava...

THE SECRET TRAINING

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How should one train in the secret arousing of bodhicitta?

The master replied: This has eleven points.

 

1. THE ESSENCE The essence of the secret arousing of bodhicitta is to recognize that which is beyond effort since the beginning, the primordial purity of nonarising free from the limitations of thought and description.

 

2. THE DEFINITION It is naturally secret from all the lower vehicles since it lies beyond that which can be indicated by words or thought of by the mind.

 

3. THE DIVISIONS When divided, there are two positions: asserting the universal purity to be nonmeditation and asserting the spontaneously present nature to be primordially perfected as nonmeditation. You should be free from any partiality concerning this. 7

 

4 THE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE PRACTITIONER

 

The characteristic of the person who engages in this is that he should be of the highest capacity, with a mind weary of concrete phenomena. Tsogyal, this can only be a person who possesses former training.

 

5. THE OBJECT FROM WHOM ONE RECEIVES The object from whom you receive it should be one who has realized the single circle of dharmakaya and therefore remains in the state of the effortless great expanse. Tsogyal, this can only be a master who has realized the meaning of the Great Perfection.

 

6. THE CEREMONY FOR RECEIVING The ritual for receiving is the empowerment of awareness display. Abandon your impure mundane physical activities as well as your pure virtuous actions. Remain like a person who has completed his deeds. Abandon your impure unwholesome verbal utterances as well as your chanting and recitations and remain like a mute tasting sugar. Abandon your impure samsaric thought activity as well as your pure nirvanic thought activity and remain like a person whose heart has been torn out. By your masters mere indication you will thus perceive the primordial dharmakaya of your mind beyond the reach of words and description. Tsogyal, this oral instruction of mine is a teaching of liberation simultaneous with understanding.

 

7. THE EFFECT OF TRAINING The purpose of training in this is that without abandoning samsara it is liberated in itself, after which the disturbing emotions are spontaneously perfected as wisdoms. Thus it has the quality of bringing enlightenment in the present moment.

 

8. THE REASON FOR TRAINING The reason for training in this way is that you must possess the nature free from bias and partiality.

 

9. THE SHORTCOMING OF NOT TRAINING The danger of not training yourself is that you will fall into the partiality of philosophical schools and have the defect of being intrinsically fettered. Tsogyal, if your practice falls into partiality it is not the Great Perfection.

 

10. THE POINTS TO BE OBSERVED

 

1. View as a mere convention that the root of all phenomena is contained within your own bodhicitta awareness, the primordial purity of nonarising.

 

2. See that this bodhicitta awareness is primordially enlightened since it does not possess any constructs such as a watcher or an object to be watched.

 

3. Recognize that whatever type of thought or fixation arises within the state of this awareness is primordially empty and luminous awareness itself.

 

4. Recognize that whatever outer appearances may arise do not possess any identity whatsoever from the very moment they are experienced, and therefore do not transcend being the display of dharmata.

 

5. Experience the nonduality of objects and mind as the innate great bliss, free from accepting and rejecting, affirming or denying.

 

6. In particular, experience all disturbing emotions and suffering as the sacred path of enlightenment.

 

7. Realize that sentient beings, from the moment they are experienced, do not possess any true existence and therefore that samsara is the primordial purity of nonarising and does not have to be abandoned.

 

8. Realize that everything experienced as kayas and wisdoms is contained within your mind and therefore that buddhahood is beyond being accomplished. Do this and you will become the successor of glorious Samantabhadra.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[C T]

You seem incapable to follow my posts.

I repeatedly stated that I don't have to assume or to believe anything about my intellect.

It's far above average capacity is scientifically proven.

 

Also, "believing" is the territory of those unable to understand and therefore to know.

If you insist. Im not going there again, its pretty exhausting. Have fun, enjoy your self-evident status.

[steve]

I don't think these are ngondro practices...

 

 

Sorry, but you're mistaken

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Sorry, but you're mistaken

Ngondro is a series of preliminary practices which include mantra recitations and prostrations. They address relative bodhicitta.

The quote from Dakini Teachings is referring to absolute bodhicitta, which does not include recitations, mantra or any other form of action.

 

Abandon your impure mundane physical activities as well as your pure virtuous actions. Remain like a person who has completed his deeds. Abandon your impure unwholesome verbal utterances as well as your chanting and recitations and remain like a mute tasting sugar. Abandon your impure samsaric thought activity as well as your pure nirvanic thought activity and remain like a person whose heart has been torn out.

 

Why else would it say to abandon your chanting and recitations?

 

And, as it says, it is effortless, and ngondro is not effortless..

 

The essence of the secret arousing of bodhicitta is to recognize that which is beyond effort since the beginning, the primordial purity of nonarising free from the limitations of thought and description.

 

So unless you recognize the differing levels of bodhicitta and the implications of each, I can see how you might think that developing relative bodhicitta is the same as absolute bodhicitta.

[Anderson]

Ngondro is a series of preliminary practices which include mantra recitations and prostrations. They address relative bodhicitta.

The quote from Dakini Teachings is referring to absolute bodhicitta, which does not include recitations, mantra or any other form of action.

 

 

No, you are mistaken.

 

Read Great Perfection - Outer and Inner Preliminaries by the Third Dzogchen Rinpoche Vol 1

and you will understand.

 

 

[C T]

A ngondro beginner uses support during the early days of the practice to get a feel of what bodhicitta really is. In this sense, there is effort. Where there is effort, its called 'relative bodhicitta'.

 

Towards the completion of one Ngondro cycle (meaning all accumulations have been done) ideally the dependence on outer supports should have naturally ceased, and the practitioner should have gained an effortless realisation of bodhicitta at this stage.

 

Its not actually two types of bodhicitta - relative and absolute pertains only to the dependence of support in the former, and independence of it in the latter.

 

When realisation arises free of contrived effort, and can remain steadily even though mental and physical distractions are present, one is said to have gained mastery of absolute bodhicitta. Ngondro can facilitate this despite its preliminary status.

Edited October 25, 2014 by C T

[steve]

Ngondro is a series of preliminary practices which include mantra recitations and prostrations. They address relative bodhicitta.

 

There is more to the ngöndro than mantra and prostrations. In addition to the information provided by Anderson and CT, if you have a proclivity for Bön, you should read Opening the Door to Bön by Nyima Dakpa. It is an excellent introduction to the preliminaries needed for Bön dzogchen practice. Words of My Perfect Teacher provides an excellent discussion of this as well in the Nyingma tradition.

 

Your quotation is describing advice for simply resting in the nature of mind. It is not referring to practicing the ngöndro. If you choose to try and develop mastery and stability in this without the benefit of practicing the ngöndro, that's fine and I wish you the best of luck. That doesn't change the fundamental components of the ngöndro, however.

 

Other convenient resources describing the ngöndro and the role of refuge and generating bodhicitta -

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/topics/ngondro/ - multiple excellent resources

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Ngöndro

http://gyalshen.org/ngondro-preliminary/

 

I stumbled across a pdf of a Mindrolling introduction to the ngöndro online. It is marked as restricted so I'm not going to publish the link but here are a few brief quotes from it:

 

"A “general” ngöndro is so-called because the preliminaries are not done just once in your life. The general ngöndro is done to prepare your body, speech, and mind to become a suitable vessel for the vajrayana teachings.

 

The structure of these ngöndros is always the same.

 

Taking refuge and generating bodhichitta are the first and second ngöndro practices, done together with prostrations. But beyond just “taking refuge” or “doing prostrations,” we are talking about actually recognizing and filling the mind with the pure qualities of the Buddha, dharma, and sangha. The bodhichitta practice then gives direction to the path of practice.

 

In this way, the preliminaries should be seen as giving direction to your path of practice—a path grounded on the two essential qualities of devotion and bodhicitta.

 

Where there is devotion, there is enlightenment. Where there is no devotion, there is no enlightenment.

It’s as simple as that."

 

Edit - The link to this document is on the Khandro Rinpoche website, so I'm happy to include it here - http://www.khandrorinpoche.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/MJKR-Introduction-to-Ngondro.pdf

It's a wonderful introduction to the purpose and value of the ngöndro practices.

 

 

 

Here is a brief overview of the Longchen Nyingtik Ngondro (Nyingma) from the ripga wiki:

 

The Common or Outer Preliminaries

 

• Blessing the Speech
• Invoking the Lama
• Four Thoughts that Turn the Mind from Samsara
  • Free and Well-Favoured Human Birth
  • Impermanence
  • Karma: Cause and Effect
  • The Suffering of Samsara
• Invoking the Lama's Compassion to Avoid Pitfalls on the Path

 

The Uncommon or Inner Preliminaries

 

 

• Taking Refuge
• Generation of Bodhichitta: the Heart of the Awakened Mind
• Vajrasattva Purification
• The Trikaya Mandala Offering
• The Accumulation of the Kusulu: Chö
• Guru Yoga
  • Visualization
  • Seven Line Prayer
  • Seven Branches of Devotional Practice
  • Maturing the Siddhi
  • Invoking the Blessing
  • The Lineage Prayer
  • Receiving the Four Empowerments
  • Dissolution
• Dedication
• Special Prayer of Aspiration

Edited October 25, 2014 by steve

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

No, you are mistaken.

 

Read Great Perfection - Outer and Inner Preliminaries by the Third Dzogchen Rinpoche Vol 1

and you will understand.

 

 

There is no mention of the training of the secret arousing of absolute bodhicitta in that book. And, the second volume is restricted....

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thanks Steve for taking the time to write all of that.

 

<p>

 

...

Your quotation is describing advice for simply resting in the nature of mind. It is not referring to practicing the ngöndro.

...

 

Exactly!

So, training in the secret arousing of bodhicitta, the absolute bodhicitta, according to the boo "Dakini Teachings" is identical to most Dzogchen instructions of resting in the natural state. It is the penultimate instruction.

 

Words Of My Perfect Teacher also denotes this elevation of the meaning of bodhicitta

 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=40i38mGQ6aAC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=types+of+bodhicitta&source=bl&ots=a6RXGkVhuD&sig=SSsXSEjrd7RGmeCM7-W-ML7al3o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HN9LVPbaLMj1iQKh2IHgAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=types%20of%20bodhicitta&f=false

 

The vajra strands, the kati channel, the gazing, the arising and dissolution of visions is a method of working with the absolute bodhicitta, in my opinion.

[steve]

Thanks Steve for taking the time to write all of that.

My pleasure

 

If you didn't read Khandro Rinpoche's talk on the ngöndro yet, I'd highly recommend it.

Really wonderful information there even if you have no interest in or plans to practice ngöndro.

[steve]

Thanks Steve for taking the time to write all of that.

 

 

Exactly!

So, training in the secret arousing of bodhicitta, the absolute bodhicitta, according to the boo "Dakini Teachings" is identical to most Dzogchen instructions of resting in the natural state. It is the penultimate instruction.

 

Words Of My Perfect Teacher also denotes this elevation of the meaning of bodhicitta

 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=40i38mGQ6aAC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=types+of+bodhicitta&source=bl&ots=a6RXGkVhuD&sig=SSsXSEjrd7RGmeCM7-W-ML7al3o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HN9LVPbaLMj1iQKh2IHgAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=types%20of%20bodhicitta&f=false

 

The vajra strands, the kati channel, the gazing, the arising and dissolution of visions is a method of working with the absolute bodhicitta, in my opinion.

 

Absolute bodhicitta is synonymous with the nature of mind. I'm not sure it makes sense to speak of arousing it as much as relaxing into it once the obscurations have gone. When we speak of generating and arousing, I think we are referring to relative bodhicitta. Absolute bodhicitta is as it is and isn't something, isn't aroused or generated, it's already what we have always been.

Probably just semantics but I think there's something of value in making that distinction, at least for my own understanding.

[wangchungman]

This is stage one of togal.