Vajra strands

[Anderson]

Still, the beauty is within, not without. Or not?

 

The beauty belongs to the mind.

[steve]

Still, the beauty is within, not without. Or not?

 

When that distinction is no longer observed, there is meditation.

 

A Om Hung

[Anderson]

When that distinction is no longer observed, there is meditation.

 

A Om Hung

 

I would say one comes to contemplation.

Because, as you point out, if one leaves behind the observation which is an activity of mind there is just the flavor of all pervading presence beyond any distinctions.

[Aetherous]

Floaters are not visions.

 

floaters. (Also called vitreous floaters.) Particles that float in the vitreous and cast shadows on the retina; seen as spots, cobwebs, spiders, etc. Occurs normally with aging or with vitreous detachment, retinal tears, or inflammation.

 

The sky sperm things are definitely not "floaters". But I would agree that they aren't "visions", either (also agree with what Steve said regarding "visions").

[Anderson]

The sky sperm things are definitely not "floaters". But I would agree that they aren't "visions", either (also agree with what Steve said regarding "visions").

 

I agree, they are not floaters.

They are called blue field entoptic phenomena.

However in my message above i was replying to a picture Dao has posted where

the objects look more like floaters rather than the sparkly dots.

But yes, none of these are vissions in the sense we are discussing here.

[steve]

I would say one comes to contemplation. Because, as you point out, if one leaves behind the observation which is an activity of mind there is just the flavor of all pervading presence beyond any distinctions.

 

For most Westerners, contemplation has the connotation of thinking about something whereas meditation does not (in part because most Westerners don't have much experience with either).

For Easterners, contemplation is more suggestive of a non-thought (or not identifying with thought) state, and meditation generally refers to practices involving visualizations, mantra, and so on.

 

So, yes, I agree with you. I chose the word I did for our mostly Western group of participants. Your choice is more accurate and is probably the convention we should follow here.

 

If you look at the entoptic phenomenon closely, the retinal capillaries are also visible but are much more subtle, sometimes implied rather than explicit. I think that is what Dao's photo captures. Floaters generally don't have that "thig le'i" appearance, just strands.

 

Both entoptic phenomena and floaters depend on the eye, hence neither are related to visions.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I have been practising gazing as my regular meditation, two to three times a day, for about a week. My sessions are performed with eyes closed while maintaining the intent to keep looking through the eyes, as if they were open. During those sessions I watch the little white balls/stars as they dart around. They are very hard to see and it requires lots of concentration accompanied with an effort to maintain a relaxed state.

 

I also gaze at the sky during my breaks at work and when I get the chance.

 

What has been happening is that it is becoming very easy to see the blue field entoptic stars darting about. I can see them while gazing at a bright cement sidewalk, when there is no blue. I can see them over the black background of the tv screen as well as the white of the bathtub.

 

During my meditation sessions, I have seen many visions, including one very large red face with a dark red eye looking at me. I think that those visions must be pranic visions similar to dreams and although they are a good sign, they are not thogal visions.

 

I'm not interested in floaters. Floaters are protein strings in the fluid of the eyeball that will eventually dissolve. The blue field entoptic little darting stars are also a physical phenomenon.

 

As I have been progressing during my gazing meditations I have realized two other types of structures. The first is what resembles a series of red lines, tightly packed. They remind me of a fingerprint of sorts. The ability to see them seems to coordinate to the in-breath so perhaps this is still a physical phenomenon. The other structure that appears is a darkish circle surrounded by dark concentric circles that looks kind of like a tunnel or hole in the dark background.

 

I don't believe any of those sights are thogal visions, as they do not resemble any thogal drawings that I have seen.

 

However, last night, while lying in bed, I saw my first thogal vision. I was lying on my right side in the dark bedroom with my eyes closed. Suddenly, a perfectly round bright white light appeared directly in the area my eyes were focusing on. The white light was very intense but I watched without too much excitement. The white light sphere became larger and its sides transformed into rainbow light. Quite beautiful. A single sphere.. Then something interesting happened. From the inside of the side of the sphere or circle, another sphere emerged and presented itself at the center of the first sphere. Much to my amazement, there appeared to be a little being sitting inside the second sphere, sitting in full lotus. The detail was kind of hazy, like the little being had been drawn with pastels. Then the second sphere moved over to the side of the larger sphere that contained it and melted into the side. Then, another sphere emerged and it looked like the one that had just disappeared.

 

This progression occurred three times, over what seemed to be two minutes. Then the whole picture show disappeared.

Who would have thought that a daily practice could precipitate thogal visions as one lies in bed, not even intending to have the experience. Must be that the conditioning throughout the day by gazing regularily is having a beneficial effect.. It sure is amazing anyway...

Edited October 19, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Tibetan_Ice]

What happens when you concentrate your awareness on perceived stuff that actually exists in your eyeball (floaters, blue field entoptic phenomena)?

 

In fact you are concentrating your awareness penetratively on the end points (openings) of the crystal tube kati channel in your eyes.

 

Conclusion..?

There is more to it than just looking through the eyes. For if it was just by looking through the eyes, then everyone would go rainbow body because everyone uses the eyes.

Further, the floaters and blue field entoptic visual phenomenon are always moving so they do not promote stillness until one takes the peripheral field as the object of attention.

Yes, there is a component of concentration, that is why it is said that thogal without trecko is useless.

The purpose of thogal is to realize that all visions, which are projected out from the heart are ephemeral, and eventually it is to realize that this reality is also a projection from the heart. So don't grasp at the visions. Just let them dissolve away and realize that they are projections from the source.

Actually, anyone who stays in complete darkness will eventually see visions. They are nothing special.

The fuel of projection is bodhicitta, so unless you cultivate true selfless love from the heart, the kati crystal channel will never reveal its secrets.

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Tibetan_Ice]

I didn't say that "looking through the eyes" leads to rainbow body.

 

 

Never said you said "looking through the eyes" leads to rainbow body.

 

 

Does everybody who practises Thogal after having gotten "direct introduction" and introduction on how to exercise Thodgal go rainbow?

 

 

I can't speak for everybody. I've never taken a survey, I wouldn't even know how to accumulate such information without having to resort to conjecture.

 

 

The floaters move as long there is movement in the liquids that fill the eyes.

If you are able to gaze without movement of the eyes, the movement of the floaters will end eventually.

 

 

I'm not interested in floaters. They are just protein strings in the fluid of the eyes. Typically those protein strings settle down and I don't focus on them. It's the little white sparkling balls/stars that I'm more interested in.

 

 

The visions come for educational reasons iyo?

 

 

According to the book "Naked Seeing", the visions are a sort of backwash or effect from various sources.

I believe the thogal visions manifest directly from awareness, and there is a large pool of Boddhicitta around the heart region. When you gaze through the eyes from a deep meditational still state with love, that pool of awareness in the heart comes up to the eyes through the kati channel. When it first comes out, it looks like a gusher of water in slow motion. After the initial surge, it fills your whole visual field so that it no longer looks like a stream of water.

 

 

Not all visions are thodgal visions

 

 

I agree. It depends where you see them. Some visions are dreams. Some visions are memory. The mind also has a function that presents pictures to the subject. Sometimes I can take visual snap shots of external scenes, then close my eyes and see them perfectly with the same detail as looking through the eyes. Occaisionally I have a photographic memory. I think the visual cortex also retains external visual imprints for a while so that it can patch together a coherent scene. There are also what I've heard referred to as pranic visions. There are also visions which you perceive which are from other minds..

 

 

Then every loving mother would go rainbow because every loving mother loves her child selfless from her heart.

 

 

Women are probably closer to being enlightened for that reason than men..

 

Boddhicitta is key. If you have resistance to developing love/compassion/selfless empathy, then you will have no possibility of being enlightened.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[steve]

Boddhicitta is key. If you have resistance to developing love/compassion/selfless empathy, then you will have no possibility of being enlightened.

 

According to every Tibetan master I've read, met, or heard of, the other key is devotion to the guru.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

According to every Tibetan master I've read, met, or heard of, the other key is devotion to the guru.

They are the same key. Either way, you activate the highest boddhicitta in the heart. This is not a master slave relationship, but the the activation of deep sacred love.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

I wonder why there are so many more men than women who achieve rainbow body then...

 

 

The few persons who really have the true internal intentions to become Buddhas to be able to help others and because of devotion their guru have these intentions anyway and don't need to be told that they should have them.

Therefore, the two "key"-suggestions above are completely useless anyway.

Because for all others, these suggestions only lead to denial of their true egocentric intentions.

 

So students have in fact the egocentric wish to become Buddhas or achieve rainbow body,

but have the impression that they have to deny their real ambition and that they have to delude themselves into the belief that they want to do it to help all other sentient beings besides themselves or that they practice because of devotion for their guru.

The rainbow body achievement rate of the western guys seems to suggest that this ego-denying method has not the best chance of success...

Sorry, I'm not interested in blanket statements and generalizations based on conjecture.. I can only speak for myself.

You are also missing the point that there are different levels and meanings of the term "bodhicitta".

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[MooNiNite]

do you guys ever see lines connecting the stars?

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

So besides your devotion to your guru your intention to help people like me to become a Buddha is your true intention for spiritual training?

My guru is the love within my heart. It is by far the most powerful mind blowing thing. It has revealed endless realities, planes and beings. It has revealed wonderful and magical phenomenon. It cuts through the mind like a knife through warm butter.

That watery pool that is filled with love, silence, great bliss and the feeling of me, an endless me, I wish I could share that with all sentient beings so they could taste it too.

[Tibetan_Ice]

do you guys ever see lines connecting the stars?

Not really. By stars I assume that you mean the little darting stars or white balls that move in arcs and leave a trail that quickly disappears. Sometimes the emergence of a star repeats itself two or three times in exactly the same location, along the same rounded trail, but then does not reappear in that location.

Floaters have strands that connect the irregular shaped blobs, but floaters are the lowest on the totem pole as far as my personal interest goes..

Why, do you see strings connecting the stars?

Edited October 24, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[MooNiNite]

Not really. By stars I assume that you mean the little darting stars or white balls that move in arcs and leave a trail that quickly disappears. Sometimes the emergence of a star repeats itself two or three times in exactly the same location, along the same rounded trail, but then does not reappear in that location.

Floaters have strands that connect the regular shaped blobs, but floaters are the lowest on the totem pole as far as my personal interest goes..

Why, do you see strings connecting the stars?

 

im just talking about the normal stars that everyone looks at at night, the ones that appear stationary.

yes, i sometimes see lines connecting them

[MooNiNite]

Not really. By stars I assume that you mean the little darting stars or white balls that move in arcs and leave a trail that quickly disappears. Sometimes the emergence of a star repeats itself two or three times in exactly the same location, along the same rounded trail, but then does not reappear in that location.

Floaters have strands that connect the irregular shaped blobs, but floaters are the lowest on the totem pole as far as my personal interest goes..

Why, do you see strings connecting the stars?

 

the practice that this thread is about it very interesting ill have to read more. when i visited mt shasta many people would look up to the sky and look for phenomenon. i saw a star light up really bright then disappear, that was pretty neat experience.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well, I had the most wonderful meditation this afternoon. I decided to give gazing a rest and really investigate the normal awareness, the regular conscious mind.

I started the meditation and focused on a thought. I tried to trace the awareness of the thought back to that which perceived the thought. The tracing led me back to the area around my heart. It seemed to open up that channel a bit.

Then I grabbed the thought and made it bigger, expanding it until it filled as much of the surrounding space as possible. Then, the thought dissolved leaving in its wake a blissful type of energy, a vacuous space and some luminescence. I stayed in that state for a few seconds. Another thought appeared so again, I examined it closely the grabbed it and surrounded myself with it. I made it larger and larger until there was nothing left to grab onto. Again, much bliss and fine energetic sensations remained. I started to really like the sensations, just sitting there, wide open, not grasping anything, enjoying the state. I wondered if this was the natural state... Of course, it was!

Then a major thought, one that was very complex and laden with emotion appeared. I tried to grab it but it would not come loose. I put some effort into pulling on it and finally it broke loose. I then expanded it and it disintegrated into a shower of bright rainbow lights. When the lights faded out, there was very much bliss. For the rest of the meditation I just stayed in that state of bliss, which lasted longer and longer. What a joy to indulge for a whole session! I was so happy at the end of the hour that it made me feel like I had actually accomplished something. What joy, what happiness..!

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

im just talking about the normal stars that everyone looks at at night, the ones that appear stationary.

yes, i sometimes see lines connecting them

Have you ever looked or gazed for power spots, or energetic phenomenon occurring in various landscapes?

[steve]

They are the same key.

 

Sorry, they are not.

Devotion is taking refuge.

Bodhicitta is awakening the mind/heart.

Different and distinct practices - not interchangeable.

[steve]

The few persons who really have the true internal intentions to become Buddhas to be able to help others and because of devotion to their guru have these intentions anyway and don't need to be told that they should have them.

Therefore, the two "key"-suggestions above are completely useless anyway.

Because for all others, these suggestions only lead to denial of their true egocentric intentions.

 

So students have in fact the egocentric wish to become Buddhas or achieve rainbow body,

but have the impression that they have to deny their real ambition and that they have to delude themselves into the belief that they want to do it to help all other sentient beings besides themselves or that they practice because of devotion for their guru.

The rainbow body achievement rate of the western guys seems to suggest that this ego-denying method has not the best chance of success...

I wasn't suggesting anything - just offering information.

 

Do you think the Tibetan children who have become monks and successful practitioners have never been told what is necessary in their practice? Wrong.

 

You are completely mistaken here regarding motivation and talking about western failure - the Tibetans have extremely powerful devotion and bodhicitta, developed from childhood. That is the foundation of their success.

Westerners struggle with that because of cultural bias and coming to the practices later in life so it is difficult for them to develop these key components as effectively.

 

Your powerful intellect, as you describe it, is the enemy of successful Dzogchen practice - not an ally.

The more intelligent practitioners often struggle more because of that.

They are more successful in rationalizing desire and aversion and denying the truth about the practice because of the power of the ego and need to overcome that. The intellect is the primary tool of the ego, hence it is an obstacle in many ways.