Discussing Tao with the "science"-minded

[dust]

Maybe the world would be better if more shows on TV were made by members of the skeptic society

 

What kind of television would be made by people with no imagination?

 

I kid, of course. But mentioning the Skeptic Society, this article is interesting:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-03-07/#feature

 

 

Science implicitly emphasizes its elite status over other points of view. Therefore, data and graphs are accepted uncritically because they are based on “scientific,” “clinical,” or “laboratory” studies. A lab coat guarantees an aura of expertise.

 

This is one of the problems I have with modern acceptance of science. People are being taught not to question it, even though science itself is the process of questioning things.

 

 

 

Please rate how much you believe the following statements. Use the 7-point scale provided.

 

The statements they used are all what I would consider to be obvious nonsense.

 

 

 

In other words, there was no relationship between the level of science knowledge and skepticism regarding paranormal claims.

 

In other other words, there exist both people with knowledge of science who believe in nonsense, and skeptics who know little about science. And all in between.

[dust]

Funny how the only ones who are worried about skeptics are the people who want everyone else to have an open mind

 

Look out for people who used an open mind as a trash bin

 

A scientist vs a creationist? [sarcasm] Well, that's just precisely what we're talking about! [/sarcasm]

 

I'd prefer you didn't lump open-mindedness with blind faith and ignorance.

[Protector]

You'd be surprised

[soaring crane]

...

 

Reality sucks.

...

 

unless you work as a qigong teacher :-)

[steve]

It would seem likely that this has been discussed here before, but being a fairly wide topic, I'm not really sure how to find it...

 

 

How do you talk to people who disregard any idea or discussion that hasn't been approved by Stephen Hawking?

 

To give them a name, perhaps 'scientific absolutists' -- people who disregard anything that isn't expressed in purely modern scientific language, or isn't strictly in line with current scientific thinking (as if it is the be-all and end-all of human knowledge).

i.e. if it's not about bosons, it's nonsense

 

I suppose I consider myself atheist (if I had to label it..I've never believed in "God"), and I have always been interested in science -- and rarely if ever had reason to doubt scientific findings. But there are so many proud atheists out there who are so devout in their dedication to / belief in science and modern technology that their dogma / behaviour isn't a far cry from that of Christian or Muslim fundamentalists, and trying to get them to see that they probably don't know everything they think they know feels just as strenuous as discussing the Bible with a creationist.

 

How to talk to them? Not "convert" them, but get them to understand their arrogance? To look at things from another perspective? I'm sure many have experienced difficulty with this...?

 

I haven't read all 4 pages so I apologize if my post is redundant.

I did see some great replies though.

 

I'll add another perspective which you may or may not want to hear:

It's equally instructive to look at what this says about you - why do you want them to look at things from a different perspective?

If they are satisfied with their view and approach, why do you assume the responsibility to "get them to understand their arrogance?" or "get them to see that they probably don't know anything" - is that not equally arrogant?

Did they ask for your input or even want it?

Why do we feel the need to convince other people to adopt or at least validate our perspective?

If you look at this process closely, you may learn something about yourself.

And it may not be all that flattering.

 

Been there done that - I'm pointing the finger at me just as much as at you!

 

I like Ya Mu's response - be kind, be happy, be friendly, do the real work for yourself and hopefully you will grow and benefit from it.... let them see that there is something about you that is different - well adjusted, serene, loving, comfortable (that is, of course, if there is!), then they might really be interested in what you have to say.

 

I learned this lesson the hard way.

While our view may be right for us, that doesn't mean we get to choose for someone else.

 

Good luck!

[dust]

I haven't read all 4 pages so I apologize if my post is redundant.

I did see some great replies though.

 

I'll add another perspective which you may or may not want to hear:

It's equally instructive to look at what this says about you - why do you want them to look at things from a different perspective?

If they are satisfied with their view and approach, why do you assume the responsibility to "get them to understand their arrogance?" or "get them to see that they probably don't know anything" - is that not equally arrogant?

Did they ask for your input or even want it?

Why do we feel the need to convince other people to adopt or at least validate our perspective?

If you look at this process closely, you may learn something about yourself.

And it may not be all that flattering.

 

I did mention it to someone, but can't blame you for not reading through all 4 pages..

I had had a conversation with a good friend, about "life etc" (nature of reality, nature of man, quantum physics, all sorts). We have always enjoyed discussing all sorts of topics over the years, and disagreed about many things quite happily, but his refusal/inability to see the world from any different perspective has often been vexing. And I'm sure my way of looking at things vexes him, but I have studied the sciences (we were in the same physics class, and separately he studied chemistry and maths, and I biology and philosophy) whereas he has never attempted to study any aspect of Eastern philosophy (or Western, for that matter).

 

The other thing is, I know he's not entirely happy in his head -- he has said as much -- and wonder if another perspective wouldn't help him, as it's helped/helping me.

 

 

 

I like Ya Mu's response - be kind, be happy, be friendly, do the real work for yourself and hopefully you will grow and benefit from it.... let them see that there is something about you that is different - well adjusted, serene, loving, comfortable (that is, of course, if there is!), then they might really be interested in what you have to say.

 

Yes... this seems to be the consensus. I'm not as serene and loving as I could be, but getting there! Thanks for the thoughts.

[silent thunder]

I stopped being interested in trying to change anyone's mind... that went a long way in making things more pleasant all around.

 

Now I participate in interesting and respectful conversations, if they're not pleasant, respectful or interesting... I leave.

No harm, no foul.

[dust]

I stopped being interested in trying to change anyone's mind... that went a long way in making things more pleasant all around.

 

Now I participate in interesting and respectful conversations, if they're not pleasant, respectful or interesting... I leave.

No harm, no foul.

 

Sure. But if a conversation -- an exchange of ideas -- is to be more than just a yes-game (which is not interesting.. indeed, not really a conversation), not every participant will agree with everything else every other participant says. No two people believe the same things in the same ways. That being the case, any conversation is going to have some measure of convincing, or the potential of changing someone's mind.

 

Your comment is proof of that, I think. You wouldn't have posted if there wasn't at least a small part of you that didn't think you might help someone if they took note of your position, agreed, and changed their position accordingly.

[silent thunder]

It's kind of flattering to give me this kind of credit, but nope, most of my speech isn't that altruistic.

 

I've got no desire to change anyone. I share openly out of a desire to be entertained, and to be enlightened. I very well might change my mind, but I don't hold or expect the same for others. If they find benefit, awesome, but I don't hold that intention in my sharing. It leads to taking things personally when disagreements naturally arise and then communication shuts down as listening takes a nose dive into thinking up good defenses for a position. It also leads to a preachy tone in person that is usually one of the quick signs for me, that a conversation will be short.

 

As for 'yes game' conversations... I haven't run into too many of those on the internet, nor in my live conversations between theists and non-theists or agnostics... But I will say that Taoism is one of the few 'religiously tinged' philosophies that I can hold some very compelling and lengthy conversations with scientists about without things derailing into name calling and logical fallacy.

Edited September 16, 2014 by silent thunder

[Marblehead]

Been there done that - I'm pointing the finger at me just as much as at you!

That finger was pointing at me too. But mine is not really intended, it just happens.

[ValleyStream]

I had an acting teacher once give us a lesson on communication.

 

He asked:

 

"Who here is a liberal?" Some hands went up.

 

"Who's a conservative?" Some other hands went up.

 

"Who is a Christian?" Some hands went up.

 

"Who is an atheist?" Some other hands went up.

 

Then he said, "Who here has been in love?" Every hand went up.

 

"Who has ever suffered pain?" Every hand went up.

 

He said that we can talk along our differences, or we can talk along our similarities.

 

This is good perspective. I enjoy when a subject so vast and complicated can be explained in simple terms. That is how you know that this is righteous.

[ValleyStream]

I stopped being interested in trying to change anyone's mind... that went a long way in making things more pleasant all around.

 

Now I participate in interesting and respectful conversations, if they're not pleasant, respectful or interesting... I leave.

No harm, no foul.

 

I practice this approach as well. Trying to change someone else's mind is similar to someone trying to change your own. If the conversation is not welcome then there is no need to proceed.

[Taomeow]

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Edited September 18, 2014 by Taomeow

[Brian]

.

[Marblehead]

Well, sometimes we decide to not say what we already said. We can unsaid things on the internet but can't in real life.

[Brian]

Well, sometimes we decide to not say what we already said. We can unsaid things on the internet but can't in real life.

Yeah, I know -- I've done the same more than once myself. The difference being that I enjoy hearing what TaoMeow says while I suspect no one says, "Darn! I wish I knew what Brian thought about _____."