Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body?

[Simple_Jack]

That is why I am not on the DW forum. I don't think you guys understand the nature of the criticism given your extreme attachment to a parental system.

 

That could very well be the case, but in a way, the Buddhist sub-forum is the most egalitarian of TTB's in the sense that you're able to post just about whatever you want, as long as nobody reports your posts. Do the same against Hindu Tantra in the Hindu sub-forum, and I'm pretty sure dwai or someone would've reported your posts.

[C T]

These 'realised individuals' buddy. They are just dudes no different to any other dudes. The only power anyone has is that vested in them by some saddo who needs somebody else to take charge of their life. The act and the fact of your Dzogchen 'masters' doing that invalidates the transaction. Any half decent teacher will promote and encourage autonomy. Your guys have set themselves up as the 'go to' guys. That's never right. Promoting dependency be it in magic or lineage, 'holy' texts or rituals is a form of grooming.

I don't know, i think everyone's groomed to some extent. Some like to be groomed differently - its only a question of degrees, some more drastic, while others less so.

 

You said you are a mindfulness instructor, right? Well, there you go, that sounds exactly like what a groomer would do. I dont really see any fundamental difference between your calling and a Buddhist master's one.

 

As for autonomy... Its my opinion that any authentic Dzogchen master would have no desire whatsoever to have large groups of students following them around, demanding of their attention at all hours of the day and night. They have no privacy, no alone time, hardly any practice time. No wonder some of them leave this world early.

 

Dzogchen Rinpoche loves his students. He also loves watching TV, and had light-heartedly said to me once that he wishes that there was a better balance between his teaching schedule and the time allocated him to watch cartoons... we both burst out in laughter when he said that. It seems he was joking, but behind the words, i could sense that he really wished his students were more self-reliant.

[steve]

It's so interesting to watch how much energy is being spent criticizing Dzogchen and the Tibetan Buddhist framework within which it is resident. For those who feel no connection, failed to make it work, or have objection to the institution, how much progress are you making on your own current path as a result of this endless stream of criticism and bitterness? Does it really help you? Does it feel good? Can't you let it go? I can tell you it is not of any value to those of us who do feel a connection and feel that the methods work for us.

 

If it doesn't work for you, find something else, move on with your life, why try to convince others that it won't work for them when they feel that it does?

If you fear for potential victims of abuse, do something concrete and tangible to help. Bitching in a chatroom on a Daoist website isn't going to protect too many people.

 

Enough already...

Jesus!

[GrandmasterP]

I don't know, i think everyone's groomed to some extent. Some like to be groomed differently - its only a question of degrees, some more drastic, while others less so.

 

You said you are a mindfulness instructor, right? Well, there you go, that sounds exactly like what a groomer would do. I dont really see any fundamental difference between your calling and a Buddhist master's one.

 

As for autonomy... Its my opinion that any authentic Dzogchen master would have no desire whatsoever to have large groups of students following them around, demanding of their attention at all hours of the day and night. They have no privacy, no alone time, hardly any practice time. No wonder some of them leave this world early.

 

Dzogchen Rinpoche loves his students. He also loves watching TV, and had light-heartedly said to me once that he wishes that there was a better balance between his teaching schedule and the time allocated him to watch cartoons... we both burst out in laughter when he said that. It seems he was joking, but behind the words, i could sense that he really wished his students were more self-reliant.

Mindfulness is a technique.

Once instructed in how to do it the cultivator just gets on and does it.

The Mindfulness coaches and mentors might go in for periodic contact with students, I don't; I just teach Mindfulness teachers how to pass the OCR ( Oxford, Cambridge & Royal Society of Arts) Level 4 Coaching and Mentoring Award for Mindfulness Teachers.

The Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapists are clinicians with a Masters Level university accredited qualification.

They work within a regulated medical paradigm as part of our National Health Service.

I don't do that either.

There's a big difference between instructing a technique and grooming dependency.

Same goes for QiGong I teach a class of seniors one session a week in term time.

No way can a senior be groomed - they have far too much common sense for that- and no way would any Qigong teacher seek to groom.

The 'groomers' are your 'playing Mommy for money' shysters in the guru and 'belief' game.

Those dudes are never short of customers because many people want someone to take on responsibility for their own life as they can't fess up to doing that for them-self.

Look at the anguished howls on here whenever one of those poor saps thinks that someone is trying to steal their pacifier.

Edited August 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[asunthatneversets]

That is why I am not on the DW forum. I don't think you guys understand the nature of the criticism given your extreme attachment to a parental system.

Coming from someone who exhibits extreme rejection of the system and considers their point of view to be rational.

[GrandmasterP]

Wasn't it Gautama Buddha that had the utmost upaya?

 

Nope, that was his cousin Bubba.

[asunthatneversets]

These 'realised individuals' buddy.They are just dudes no different to any other dudes.

I take it you've never recognized your nature, if you had you would understand what the condition of these individuals is like, and would then also understand that they are nothing like "every other dude".

 

But can't fault you for that. However you can be faulted for making assertions based on unfounded and biased conjecture, which is precisely what your statement is.

[Brian]

Nope, that was his cousin Bubba.

Think he spelled it "Bubbha."

[GrandmasterP]

I'm genuinely not trying to steal your soother buddy.

You suck on it in good health if it makes you feel better.

It's yours.

 

[asunthatneversets]

It's so interesting to watch how much energy is being spent criticizing Dzogchen and the Tibetan Buddhist framework within which it is resident. For those who feel no connection, failed to make it work, or have objection to the institution, how much progress are you making on your own current path as a result of this endless stream of criticism and bitterness? Does it really help you? Does it feel good? Can't you let it go? I can tell you it is not of any value to those of us who do feel a connection and feel that the methods work for us.

 

If it doesn't work for you, find something else, move on with your life, why try to convince others that it won't work for them when they feel that it does?

If you fear for potential victims of abuse, do something concrete and tangible to help. Bitching in a chatroom on a Daoist website isn't going to protect too many people.

 

Enough already...

Jesus!

Yeah, it is sad.

[C T]

Mindfulness is a technique.

Once instructed in how to do it the cultivator just gets on and does it.

The Mindfulness coaches and mentors might go in for periodic contact with students, I don't; I just teach Mindfulness teachers how to pass the OCR ( Oxford, Cambridge & Royal Society of Arts) Level 4 Coaching and Mentoring Award for Mindfulness Teachers.

The Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapists are clinicians with a Masters Level university accredited qualification.

They work within a regulated medical paradigm as part of our National Health Service.

I don't do that either.

There's a big difference between instructing a technique and grooming dependency.

Same goes for QiGong I teach a class of seniors one session a week in term time.

No way can a senior be groomed - they have far too much common sense for that- and no way would any Qigong teacher seek to groom.

The 'groomers' are your 'playing Mommy for money' shysters in the guru and 'belief' game.

Those dudes are never short of customers because many people want someone to take on responsibility for their own life as they can't fess up to doing that for them-self.

Look at the anguished howls on here whenever one of those poor saps thinks that someone is trying to steal their pacifier.

I still dont see any fundamental difference, except maybe you couch yours in more 21st century lingo.

[asunthatneversets]

I'm genuinely not trying to steal your soother buddy.You suck on it in good health if it makes you feel better.It's yours.

Weird.

[GrandmasterP]

Think he spelled it "Bubbha."

Now that is a common misconception which the 'Redneck Sutra' clearly refutes.

Bubba had that stuff in spades.

He was the one who ran the still.

Billy Budd Bubbha on the other hand was an entirely different cousin.

Bubbha was the snake handler as in...

" Pass the rattlers Deacon Bubbha!"

 

The similarity in nomenclature tends oft to bemuse.

Hope that helps.

Edited August 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Anderson]

Some people here who've received teachings from the same teacher should bear in mind that they are vajra brothers.

[goldisheavy]

I would argue that if you had such realization, you would not be so vociferously opposed to Tibetan Buddhist ritual and trappings, even the hierarchy and paternalism. All of this is simply an ornament, an appearance.

 

Phenomena appear ornamental to realized beings, however, realized beings when they are moved by compassion address non-realized beings for whom the differences are significant. So for a siddha losing a leg is ornamental, but a compassionate siddha would not say to a non-realized being "hey, don't worry about your legs, if you lose one, who cares, right?"

 

Even then ornaments still presuppose aesthetics. If aesthetic preferences are insignificant, then it's OK for any being to have an aesthetic preference. And "any" is rather inclusive. Meaning, I don't have to like your preference because my preference is OK and your preference might offend me, and that's OK too. That's what it means for preferences to be insignificant.

 

A realized being would have no objection to those who find such a path supportive and helpful to follow that. They would see the beauty and value for some the negative aspect for others. Both are nothing but ornamentation and of no real consequence...

 

Such things are of consequence for people who are not realized yet, as I said above.

Edited August 1, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Simple_Jack]

Wasn't it Gautama Buddha that had the utmost upaya?

 

Gautama Buddha was a supreme nirmanakaya and if you read the accounts of his past lives spread throughout the sutras or the Jakarta/Jataka tales he had embarked on the career of a bodhisattva 3 incalculable (asamkyeya) eons (kalpa) ago where he features in many lives as a rishi, ascetic, monk, etc. In comparison the bodhi of a pratykabuddha, which is nothing to scoff at, takes only a hundred kalpas in order to gather the merit and wisdom in order to engender insight into the 12 links of dependent origination, in a period where the buddhadharma has not been dispensed by a samyaksambuddha [http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pratyekabuddha]. The point I'm trying to get across is, the capacity of ordinary individuals such as ourselves, does not compare to the capacity i.e. the aspiration, the diligence, etc. of an example such as the Buddha.

[steve]

Phenomena appear ornamental to realized beings, however, realized beings when they are moved by compassion address non-realized beings for whom the differences are significant. So for a siddha losing a leg is ornamental, but a compassionate siddha would not say to a non-realized being "hey, don't worry about your legs, if you lose one, who cares, right?"

And one compassionate response to a siddha who claims realization while suffering over their missing limb might be to remind them that there is still work to be done....

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Good that you are at least able to have this insight!

But in fact, BMP was just speaking out loud directly what we all are thinking about you!

 

Yeah not really Zoom, funny how you keep presenting your vapid remarks like you're speaking for the collective viewpoint of the entire tao bums Buddhist sub-forum, as if that is even something to tout or boast about. Seriously deluded.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Making ad populum arguments doesn't mean they are legitimate Zoom, (and here's an ad hominem from me) it just means there might be a few more fools who tow the same ignorant party line as you.

 

A small group of people in an echo chamber micro-climate who pat each other on the back is hardly a sign that the halfwitted rhetoric they are spewing is reasonable or correct. It simply means you have a few individuals here with paternalistic authority issues and matching opinions who post with greater frequency than others. I'd get off that high horse buddy.

[goldisheavy]

And one compassionate response to a siddha who claims realization while suffering over their missing limb might be to remind them that there is still work to be done....

 

Who said anything about suffering? A siddha doesn't even have to remain in the body, unlike an ordinary being.

[asunthatneversets]

Obviously you are projecting and you use me as your mirror! Thank you for accepting me as your guru in real life!

 

Are you twelve years old?

[asunthatneversets]

You are still trying to escape and to run away from the Clear Light of insight! Not the best way to Buddhahood but rather the contrary.

 

Extract & quote the reasons your guru gave to support his repeated claims in the text why a practitioner can't learn Dzogchen from a book but needs "transmission" from a guru!

We all are still waiting...

 

No my friend, you are still waiting because you are too lazy to pick up any Dzogchen or Vajrayāna book that exists and read it without your biases clouding your ability to grok the fact that a teacher is an integral and indispensable aspect of these teachings (and any and every book on the subject will state that).

 

I literally have countless quotations to substantiate my position, you on the other hand, have zero. That high horse you rode in on is a mule, and is ugly as sin... feel free to vacate the premises at any time.

[asunthatneversets]

That is a belief.

 

Pulling the belief card is a slippery, slippery slope.