Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body?

[goldisheavy]

Excuse me, I should add that this experience (which lasted several days) was the result of an intense meditation practice without any external objects. I was simply sitting down in a normal room in normal dimmed daylight under completely normal circumstances, sometimes with closed and sometimes with open eyes.

If you watch all day long into the sun or a flame or whatever, you can certainly get an experience like I had because of a physical reaction caused by exposing your eyes to unnaturally strong stimuli. I forgot that some people have surely such a strong desire to have experiences and to be "advanced" that they would be able to delude themselves into the adamant belief to experience real training progress as in reality they just hurt their eyes...

 

First, I am not criticizing your experience. In fact I like to think I never critize any experience per se. I like to think I criticize only framing. Maybe I do slip up from time to time. I'm talking about experiences on the margins of convention here and experiences beyond convention.

 

Second, trying to separate mystical experiences into real and delusionally self-induced is a big mistake. All systems of judgement we may use are flimsy and they do not readily withstand the pressure of analysis. So if you were to assume your experience was some genuine sign, I'd be able to successfully question you such that if you follow my questions you'll have to admit you have no objective basis for judgement and it will come down to aesthetics, personal preference, etc. And this is important to understand because this is what is known as "the view."

 

Without "the view" Dzogchen is just a bunch of exotic experiences that people have pretty often outside the Dzogchen circles. For example, migrane sufferers see lights often. Seeing lights is not a sign on its own. Not seeing lights is also not a sign of doing badly either, on its own.

 

If you really want to assess your progress in Dzogchen, you should assess the freedom of mentation instead of this or that individual appearance. If you can instantly move between any conceivable state of mind A to any state of mind B, congrats, you are a realized being. If not, then you still don't have what they call "the rainbow body."

Edited July 22, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[goldisheavy]

As I'm not the guy claiming to be advanced so I'm not the guy who has to grasp at anything.

 

Having a high self-opinion is not what grasping is. Grasping is simply any form of judgement that is unconsciously committed to inflexibility and not sufficiently cognizant of infinite different perspectives.

 

So grasping is something subtle. Grasping is a mode of cognition. It's not a character flaw or some such. Grasping is not something anyone could pass an objective value judgement about.

 

Back then, I was just intensely experimenting with practical possibilities concerning my own theories and ideas of "short-circuiting" my awareness,

had an intense sensory experience of cause of this,

and now see parallels to Dzogchen theory and the experience of Clear Light that is supposed to follow as a first result to successful Dzogchen practice.

That's all.

 

I think that's really cool. Experimenting is essential. Without this kind of experimenting the person is very unlikely to realize what their own mind is really all about.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

"Grasping" is believing that visualisations are signs of progress because lama said so...

Grasping is much more subtle than that. For your assertion here is grasping too if you are not aware of the implications involved with that identification and how that process serves to reify affliction.

 

In terms of grasping, you are falling victim to the very form of clinging you believe you are pointing out in those who value their lama's instructions.

[goldisheavy]

"Grasping" is believing that visualisations are signs of progress because lama said so...

 

I agree that this would be one example of grasping.

[goldisheavy]

Grasping is much more subtle than that. For your assertion here is grasping too if you are not aware of the implications involved with that identification and how that process serves to reify affliction.

 

In terms of grasping, you are falling victim to the very form of clinging you believe you are pointing out in those who value their lama's instructions.

 

Thinking that someone "out there" definitively experiences victimhood is also grasping. I'll agree that grasping is subtle, however.

[ralis]

Grasping is much more subtle than that. For your assertion here is grasping too if you are not aware of the implications involved with that identification and how that process serves to reify affliction.

 

In terms of grasping, you are falling victim to the very form of clinging you believe you are pointing out in those who value their lama's instructions.

 

Please define and expand on the implications you are referring to?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Jax is ok, except in his video, he kind of confuses the dissolving of thoughts with turning the attention around back to the witness. This is not dissolving thoughts. In his instructions, in the video, he says to visualize the object, then turn the attention back to the watcher, then back to the object etc.. This is not dissolving thoughts. To dissolve a thought you have to keep focused on it without grasping (or feeding energy into it). The other thing that mystified me about Jax's video is how at the end, he undermines his practice by saying that you can just keep centered at the root of the crown and get the same effect. This is not Dzogchen.

 

Zoom, apparently you haven't done any breath meditation. Seeing the inside of your head lit in bright light up also occurs after a few breath meditations during the day. After say, two hours of breath meditation on any day, the inside of my head is lit up brightly, even when just sitting, relaxing in a hot bath. It is, as Asunthatneversets, nyams.. Interesting phenomenon that indicate that you are doing something right, but not the holy grail. The bright light is good. Better is to see a sun or a moon. Also, this is not clear light. These are manifestations of clear light but so far removed that the form side is pulling down the balance.

 

If you want to assess your progress in Dzogchen, see how well you can dissolve thoughts. Then move on to dissolving visions. The visions are more spectacular because they always dissolve into colorful rainbows. Then, one day, after getting your practice right (from the heart), you might be walking into a supermarket and the whole scene, the whole world dissolves away and you find yourself in a big space of nothing, looking at the universe in a tiny bubble floating away..

[goldisheavy]

Here it is. Thanks for joining in!

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jackson+peterson+dzogchen

 

I've watched a few videos and already I stumbled on Jackson speaking of the brain as if the brain does something and is not merely an object of cognition in and of itself.

 

Also Jackson seems to dwell on content vs. absence of content as the important distinction and I don't think that's necessarily the most important distinction to make. It's much better to introduce people to extraordinary cognition as an alternative to ordinary. This is different from turning off your TV.

Edited July 22, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[ralis]

I've watched a few videos and already I stubled on the Jackson speaking of the brain as if the brain does something and is not merely an object of cognition in and of itself.

 

Also Jackson seems to dwell on content vs. absence of content as the important distinction and I don't think that's necessarily the most important distinction to make. It's much better to introduce people to extraordinary cognition as an alternative to ordinary. This is different from turning off your TV.

 

Would you elaborate on extraordinary cognition?

[goldisheavy]

 

If you want to assess your progress in Dzogchen, see how well you can dissolve thoughts. Then move on to dissolving visions. The visions are more spectacular because they always dissolve into colorful rainbows. Then, one day, after getting your practice right (from the heart), you might be walking into a supermarket and the whole scene, the whole world dissolves away and you find yourself in a big space of nothing, looking at the universe in a tiny bubble floating away..

 

This is only the beginning. Eventually you should be able to manifest any appearance whatseover, and I count non-appearance as a special cognition, so still an appearance.

[goldisheavy]

Would you elaborate on extraordinary cognition?

 

Extraordinary cognition is any cognition that isn't considered normal or sane.

 

For example, if you experience having 4 arms, that's one example.

 

If your body vanishes and reappears, that's another.

 

If your sense of time slows down such that people on the street hover endlessly in mid-step, that's another.

 

If you stretch your human body like a piece of bubble gum until your head reaches the moon, that's another example.

 

More examples: experiencing yourself as a group of people instead of as one person. Switching identities with people. Compressing or warping space, like if you can put a chair into your coat pocket. Etc.

 

And so on.

 

All the jhanas (meditative absorptions) are types of extraordinary cognition as well.

 

The main thing to understand is that the mind isn't a thing and it's not created by a thing or a system of things (like the brain). The mind is a primordial capacity. Once you realize this, you can begin practicing going crazy in earnest. When you become completely insane, and yet you can still relate to sane people if you choose to do so, then you're liberated.

Edited July 23, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Tibetan_Ice]

What do you mean exactly with "breath meditation"?

 

Fixing your attention in one place and watching the breath. Anapanasati. Alan Wallace, the Attention Revolution. Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond -Ajahn Brahm.. Shaila Catherine.

Breat meditation. Watch your breath as you inhale, watch the gap between breaths, watch the out-breath, then the pause. Strive to make your attention continuous and clear.. Keep returning to the breath when your mind wanders off. For me, usually after 30 seconds or so of continual attention, I start to see the light.. In Theravadan terms, that is the breath nimitta.

[goldisheavy]

Fixing your attention in one place and watching the breath. Anapanasati. Alan Wallace, the Attention Revolution. Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond -Ajahn Brahm.. Shaila Catherine.

Breat meditation. Watch your breath as you inhale, watch the gap between breaths, watch the out-breath, then the pause. Strive to make your attention continuous and clear.. Keep returning to the breath when your mind wanders off. For me, usually after 30 seconds or so of continual attention, I start to see the light.. In Theravadan terms, that is the breath nimitta.

 

Nimittas are "signs" or "visions" in English. One should realize that these signs are individual based on one's propensities. Not everyone will see a light even if they meditate correctly.

[asunthatneversets]

Thinking that someone "out there" definitively experiences victimhood is also grasping. I'll agree that grasping is subtle, however.

 

Thinking there is not someone out there who experiences victimhood is also a form of grasping. This is why a balance of the conventional and ultimate is important.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Tibetan_Ice]

This is only the beginning. Eventually you should be able to manifest any appearance whatseover, and I count non-appearance as a special cognition, so still an appearance.

Yes, it is only the start. The purpose of togal is to get you used to dissolving the visions, letting go of them and releasing them. And, realizing that your heart is creating these visions, you are manifesting your own visions. The vision of this reality is no different from the other realities that manifest. Sometimes you can't tell the difference. I think being able to use your conscious mind and control what you manifest, as you say, must be the pinnacle of the art.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Tibetan_Ice]

Nimittas are "signs" or "visions" in English. One should realize that these signs are individual based on one's propensities. Not everyone will see a light even if they meditate correctly.

That's what they say. For some, especially if you don't have your third eye developed, it could be a feeling, or a pressure.

 

And then, there are other who say, no, if you don't see light, you just aren't doing it right. You haven't opened your third eye yet. I think there are many teachers out there who use the lowest common denominator when it comes to what you should experience and what you don't experience.

 

The whole point of Thogal is to first get the visions, then dissolve. I don't see how you are going to do that without being able to see the visions. You need your third eye open.

[asunthatneversets]

Extraordinary cognition is any cognition that isn't considered normal or sane.

 

For example, if you experience having 4 arms, that's one example.

 

If your body vanishes and reappears, that's another.

 

If your sense of time slows down such that people on the street hover endlessly in mid-step, that's another.

 

If you strench your human body like a piece of bubble gum until your head reach the moon, that's another example.

 

More examples: experiencing yourself as a group of people instead of as one person. Switching identities with people. Compressing or warping space, like if you can put a chair into your coat pocket. Etc.

 

And so on.

 

All the jhanas (meditative absorptions) are types of extraordinary cognition as well.

 

The main thing to understand is that the mind isn't a thing and it's not created by a thing or a system of things (like the brain). The mind is a primordial capacity. Once you realize this, you can begin practicing going crazy in earnest. When you become completely insane, and yet you can still relate to sane people if you choose to do so, then you're liberated.

 

However the phenomena you are listing here are nothing but nyams and mundane siddhis... none of that is the "extraordinary cognition" that Dzogchen is concerned with. The only extraordinary cognition or knowledge that Dzogchen is concerned with is vidyā.

[Tibetan_Ice]

This sounds not very believable to me.

I can understand that people begin to "see lights" if they are hyperventilating or somehow else manipulate their breathing so that the gas concentrations in their blood get abnormal which disturbs the normal brain function and leads to halluzinations.

If you fix your attention on your nostrils and watch your breath, if your third eye is open, and you move your attention behind your eyes and a little bit up, you will see a white ball of light. But this only happens when you learn to fixate and rest your attention while watching your breath.

 

And here is some news. If you can sit and do nothing, just watch your thoughts without grasping, watch the visions without grasping, that light appears all it's own without doing anything. But, it goes away the minute you conceptualize, grasp, get excited or move..

 

Actually, reality is just a series of disjoint visions that we grasp onto with lots of brilliant white light in between.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[asunthatneversets]

Please define and expand on the implications you are referring to?

 

How patterns of grasping construct and sustain delusion.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM