The Course in Buddhist Reasoning and Debate

[steve]

They are experiencing rigpa, introduced through the calm abiding practice!

 

Yes, he's a great teacher

 

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

 

 

I would also be a bit careful here.

While rigpa can be introduced and accessed through zhiné, it's very important that it be clarified, pointed out, by an experienced guide. I don't think that it is impossible for someone to experience and even recognize rigpa without pointing out instructions, but I do think one is very likely to be mistaken or lack confidence without them. And even a small mistake can really lead one down the wrong path and waste a lot of time in practice. Furthermore, developing enough confidence to be able to return to and abide in the Natural State at will and develop stability depends heavily on the certainty of that knowledge (there, I used the word! ).

This is where the importance of guru yoga comes in. Having this degree of certainty requires the trust and devotion that I had never understood or experienced before practicing guru yoga. All the pieces really do fit and work together well, in my limited experience.

[Simple_Jack]

I have heard of 3rd Vision of Thogal being translated as The Full Measure of Awareness, or, Perfection of Awareness (rig pa tshad phebs, a googleable term should anyone be interested). Haven't yet come across it being translated as 'Full measure of knowledge'. Maybe its there in the matrix somewhere, but quite unlikely.

 

Even Jean Luc translates it in its proper context, as above.

 

JLA himself basically admitted, that he uses the term 'Awareness' when translating rigpa in his translations, because Westerners are already so deeply conditioned with the association of this concept, that the damage had already been done; there was no point in attempting to reintroduce a different translation of this term.

 

No one's demanding anyone to agree with how ChNN teaches Dzogchen.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[asunthatneversets]

I have heard of 3rd Vision of Thogal being translated as The Full Measure of Awareness, or, Perfection of Awareness (rig pa tshad phebs, a googleable term should anyone be interested). Haven't yet come across it being translated as 'Full measure of knowledge'. Maybe its there in the matrix somewhere, but quite unlikely.

 

Even Jean Luc translates it in its proper context, as above.

It is when one's knowledge reaches its full measure or effulgence. One's knowledge is then complete. The realization of emptiness.

[asunthatneversets]

Here is Jean-Luc Achard on translating rigpa:

Pero wrote:

So which translation for rigpa do you like?

 

Jean-Luc wrote:

Well, so far in English i haven't found anything i'm really crazy about. In the English translations i do i use Awareness because it's practically impossible to change the usage now. But, as we've discussed elsewhere, etymologically (the high-german gewhar from which Awareness is derived) does not really fit with the context. In french i use an other word. I use "Discernment" because it fits with the simpliest definition of Rigpa found in the ZZNG where it is sait that Rigpa discerns (rig) or distinguishes (phyed) the pure (dag = Mind, the nature of mind) from the impure (ma-dag = mind, the conditioned mind). In this discerning aspect (rig-cha), there is no duality, simply the ever-pure, lucid, vivid and fresh knowledge of the natural state. In such a state, the arising of thoughts is not a problem at all, on the contrary they may be more than welcome, especially for investigating the meaning of the teachings, spreading them, etc.

 

Pero wrote:

I always thought it's better not to translate rigpa, because this way there can't be as many concepts arising as to what it is.

 

Jean-Luc wrote:

In pure theory of translation (the famed Georges Mounin's theories), this is a mistake. When you don't have a word in the target language that fits with the original word in the source language, then the solution is to choose a word that comes the closest to the definition of the original word and then apply to it a semantic field that corresponds exactly to the original definition. That's what the Tibetans have done when they used "Rigpa" for the knowledge of the natural state. Rigpa/Discernement is the word/translation and "the knowledge of the natural state" is its definition. Then you have the semantic field with all that is related to the original word. The word you chose must also function in all the contexts that you see the original word in, in the original texts. Rigpa works also as a verb, so you have to be able to conjugate your choice. In an extreme sense, you can choose any word you like, provided it's close enough to the basic meaning of the original and you simply have to give it a special semantic field to work out fine. In standard tibetan, Rigpa does not have the meaning it has in Dzogchen. This means that the Tibetans have rendered its semantic field "sensible" in order to encompass the meaning they wanted to give it in a Dzogchen context.

Edited March 10, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[steve]

I think JLA's choice of discernment is a good one, much better than knowledge, awareness, or presence IMO.

I've recently acquired a few of his translations from the Zhangzhung nyengyud - quite good.

[C T]

Not arguing, merely pointing out, that in the 3rd Togal vision, the combining phrase, as JL himself translates as, is 'Full measure of awareness' and not 'Full measure of knowledge'.

 

Personally, i dont really care what it is called, as long as there is a continual stream of recognition. If there is distraction, or subtle conceptual stickiness, afraid that knowledge of the most precise translation will not have the slightest benefit.

 

Even so, i can understand how recognition is impossible without first getting a definitive pointing-out from a master. This is a given.

 

Now, how this discussion went from Buddhist reasoning and debate to attempts at finding the translation for Rigpa, i haven't a clue.

[Apech]

Not arguing, merely pointing out, that in the 3rd Togal vision, the combining phrase, as JL himself translates as, is 'Full measure of awareness' and not 'Full measure of knowledge'.

 

Personally, i dont really care what it is called, as long as there is a continual stream of recognition. If there is distraction, or subtle conceptual stickiness, afraid that knowledge of the most precise translation will not have the slightest benefit.

 

Even so, i can understand how recognition is impossible without first getting a definitive pointing-out from a master. This is a given.

 

Now, how this discussion went from Buddhist reasoning and debate to attempts at finding the translation for Rigpa, i haven't a clue.

 

Because you are all obsessed with Dzogchen terminology

[C T]

Because you are all obsessed with Dzogchen terminology

[steve]

Because you are all obsessed with Dzogchen terminology

 

Fortunately, at this moment in time I'm more obsessed with practice.

But this has been a stimulating discussion for me.

[steve]

 

My stance differs somewhat as to the role of correct inference gained from studying, but this is due to starting out in sutrayana, as well as influence from the Gelugpas. In both, familiarity with right view, although on the basis of conceptual inference, leads to non-conceptual realization. The same principle applies to meditation on a koan, which is conceptual by nature, but can eventually lead to a non-conceptual "awakening", which is then continually refined until the moment of "great awakening". In Gelug, due to Tsongkhapa's formulation of conventional and ultimate levels of emptiness, though emptiness is an ultimate truth: it also exists conventionally as the characteristic of an object, which in turn is the ultimate nature of the object; therefore, being that emptiness is a characteristic of an object, it merely exists as what's designated by the mind and is ascertainable by means of logic and analysis. Basically, emptiness is an ultimate truth, but it exists conventionally, which means that emptiness can be continually apprehended conceptually, as the object of a mental consciousness, up until the moment of non-conceptual realization.

 

In Dzogchen, after the recognition of the nature of mind, one continually refines, familiarizes, and integrates with the 'View' through the practice of tregcho, togal, etc.:

 

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

 

Jean-Luc Wrote:

Hi Daygo,

It's a subject that we've been discussing quite a lot in other Yahoo lists. I personally think that "Presence" is the worst word ever to use in order to translate Rigpa. Presence is a sensation, so it belongs to the aggregate of sensations. It, of course, involves consciousnesses (both sensory and mental) and that's precisely where the problem lies. Rigpa is beyond sensations and consciousnesses. It does not depend on these. It is the knowledge of the natural state. What does that mean really? It means that the Natural State has two qualities : Emptiness and Clarity. Emptiness means absence of inherent existence and Clarity means that this state is self-discerning ("it knows itself by itself", as Lopon [Tenzin Namdak] often puts it). In other words, the Clarity of the natural state corresponds to what Rigpa is. This Rigpa is that through which one knows the natural state (when being introduced to it by the master) and that through which our natural state knows itself (just like a lamp illuminates both itself and what is around). And how does it know itself since it's not a mental consciousness? It precisely discerns (rig) itself from the ordinary mind (sems), from consciousness (rnam-shes), intellect (blo), intelligence (blo gros), mental (yid), etc. So when you are in the state of Rigpa, you clearly discerns (rig) what pertains to Mind (sems-nyid, the ultimate nature of Mind) from what pertains to ordinary, conditioned mind (sems). In Thogel context, Rigpa corresponds to the fourth Lamp — the Lamp of the Self-Arisen Sublime Knowledge (shes-rab rang-byung gi sgron ma) — which is, precisely, the Sublime (rab) Knowledge (shes) corresponding to the state of Trekchö. In all of this, there is a very active and dynamic aspect of total Discernment (rig-pa) or real Knowledge (shes rab) of the natural state, not a mere state of sensing a presence (of what by the way?)....

 

...There exists 15 forms or modalities of Rigpa (which we may discuss in another post, right now I lack time to enter details), but basically when explaining what it is in Bon, we use mainly these three modalities:

1. Khyab-rig (All-Pervasive Discernment) which is the same as the Sugatagarbha, the potential for Buddhahood (it is nothing else, just this potential). What it pervades is the heart of all beings; in other words, all beings have this Pervasive Discernement which embraces each being endowed with a mind;

2. bSam-rig (Knowing Discernment) which is the knowledge you generate when you study and get experiences of the teachings (it is a fluctuating phenomenon according to the capacities of the individual; the more you study correctly, the more your Knowing Discernement is developed);

3. Ye-rig (Primordial Discernment) which is, precisely, the Rigpa that is referred to in Dzogchen texts. There exists three modalities indicating whether or not you are in this state : an outer one, an inner one and an intermediate one. According to the outer one, you know (you realize, you discern) that the outer manifestations are really non-substantial (you realize their absence of tangible reality). According to the inner one, you are in the experience of Mind itself (sems-nyid) and you realize it as being devoid of self (bdag-med). In other words, you discerns your real nature as being empty of a conditioned self. Then according to the intermediate one, all discursive thoughts arise as Wisdoms. It does not mean that thoughts disappear; on the contrary they continue to arise but they are left as they are and we do not follow after them. At that time they simply arise but are seen as empty. Still their potential for arising is there and since it is not tainted by ego-grasping, then this potential manifests its enlightened side which is that of Wisdoms. In other words, thoughts arise as Wisdoms. They are exactly the same as before, exactly and precisely the same as before, with the cosmic exception that there is no grasping at them anymore.

All this comes from the teachings of Shardza Rinpoche and the oral instructions associated with the Trekchö section of the Kuzang Nyingthik.

 

 

Not arguing, merely pointing out, that in the 3rd Togal vision, the combining phrase, as JL himself translates as, is 'Full measure of awareness' and not 'Full measure of knowledge'.

 

Personally, i dont really care what it is called, as long as there is a continual stream of recognition. If there is distraction, or subtle conceptual stickiness, afraid that knowledge of the most precise translation will not have the slightest benefit.

 

Even so, i can understand how recognition is impossible without first getting a definitive pointing-out from a master. This is a given.

 

Now, how this discussion went from Buddhist reasoning and debate to attempts at finding the translation for Rigpa, i haven't a clue.

 

Jack's fault…

I had nothing to do with it.

[asunthatneversets]

Not arguing, merely pointing out, that in the 3rd Togal vision, the combining phrase, as JL himself translates as, is 'Full measure of awareness' and not 'Full measure of knowledge'.

 

Personally, i dont really care what it is called, as long as there is a continual stream of recognition. If there is distraction, or subtle conceptual stickiness, afraid that knowledge of the most precise translation will not have the slightest benefit.

 

Even so, i can understand how recognition is impossible without first getting a definitive pointing-out from a master. This is a given.

 

Now, how this discussion went from Buddhist reasoning and debate to attempts at finding the translation for Rigpa, i haven't a clue.

Third vision is equivalent to first bhūmi [path of seeing], it is the realization of emptiness, which is the full measure of rigpa. At that point one's knowledge of reality is complete.

Edited March 10, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[Tibetan_Ice]

The insight of rigpa does not occur spontaneously, it arises due to recognizing one's nature, recognizing the nature of mind.

 

Your charge that primordial wisdom does not rely on the senses and therefore would not need to taste chocolate is a wild misconstruing of the metaphor. Whether you're doing that consciously in an attempt to discredit the example of tasting chocolate, or whether you simply are not grasping this notion and that misconstruing is out of confusion, I'm not sure. Either way though your assertion makes no sense.

 

Further, your charge that knowledge is not intrinsic to rigpa because we experience rigpa many times while falling asleep is nothing that the system of Dzogchen says. The teachings speak of experiencing the clear light while falling asleep and the natural light, but it never ever says we experience rigpa while falling asleep. This misunderstanding sheds a great deal of light on why you have aversion to understanding rigpa as knowledge though. So this disagreement is starting to make sense more as we go along.

Hi NeverSets,

 

You said: "The insight of rigpa does not occur spontaneously, it arises due to recognizing one's nature, recognizing the nature of mind."

I have to disagree. Rigpa does arise spontaneously. And when it does, it takes someone to point it out to you that that experience is called such and such. Otherwise, you can't put a label to it. This has been my experience.

 

First, here are some quotes which establish rigpa as "intrinsic awareness" in English:

The aspect of intrinsic awareness (Rig-Pa), the nature of which is primordially uncompounded, and spontaneously based on the state (of the ultimate sphere), is called the ultimate universal ground of union (sByor-Ba Don-Gyi Kun-gZhi).

 

Rabjam, Longchen (2002-11-25). The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo (p. 216). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Secondly, there is that word "spontaneous" ...

The Great perfection is accomplished spontaneously.

 

 

In the unmoving and changeless Mind, Maintain the unchanging Dharmatā like Mt. Meru. The “simultaneously perfected Intrinsic Awareness,”85 spontaneously perfected and uncompounded, Neutrality [of good and bad] and non-duality of actions and efforts will be accomplished spontaneously.

 

Rabjam, Longchen (2002-11-25). The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo (pp. 331-332). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

Not only is there mention of the "umoving and changeless Mind", which in my vocabulary is shamatha, but that last paragraph also mentions that "Intrinsic Awareness", which I would call rigpa, which Longchen calls rigpa, is accomplished spontaneously.

 

In response to your next statment, "Your charge that primordial wisdom does not rely on the senses and therefore would not need to taste chocolate is a wild misconstruing of the metaphor. Whether you're doing that consciously in an attempt to discredit the example of tasting chocolate, or whether you simply are not grasping this notion and that misconstruing is out of confusion, I'm not sure. Either way though your assertion makes no sense."

 

I would say: First, I never called it "primordial wisdom", you did. Secondly, the 5 consciousnesses which apprehend the senses are stable and do not interfere with each other. It is the conceptual mind which interprets and marks experiences with their own flavours. From the point of view from rigpa, everything looks (or tastes) the same. You are everything. Everything is love, bliss, radiant, brilliant, perfect... Further, if you dissolve thoughts, dissolve your conceptual mind, the space that remains is capable of knowing things even before the little voice in your head can activate and iterate thoughts. Pre-conceptual mind.

To simplify my position, I am saying that one does not have to experience chocolate through the sense consciousnesses in order to realize chocolate. There is a higher capacity which can come into play, which appears to be able to grant you access to any experience that you'd like, and to some experiences that the ordinary sense consciousnesses do not have access to .

 

Then you say "Further, your charge that knowledge is not intrinsic to rigpa because we experience rigpa many times while falling asleep is nothing that the system of Dzogchen says. The teachings speak of experiencing the clear light while falling asleep and the natural light, but it never ever says we experience rigpa while falling asleep. This misunderstanding sheds a great deal of light on why you have aversion to understanding rigpa as knowledge though. So this disagreement is starting to make sense more as we go along."

 

Again, I have to disagree. Clear Light is rigpa. Don't you know?

 

According to Tenzin Namdak:

The Natural Clear Light is concentrated in the hollow cavity in our

physical heart and then it overflows up the Kati channel or smooth white

nerve that is like a hollow tube of crystal. Originating in the physical heart,

it passes up the membrane of the brain and dividing into two, it terminates

in the two eyeballs. This Kati channel and the eyeballs represent the third

and fourth lamps, whereas the heart is the second lamp and the Natural

Clear Light is the first. This inner light overflowing by way of the Kati,

emerges through the two doorways of the eyeballs. These doorways at the

end of the channel are shaped like the flowers of the flax plant (zar-ma).

This is not the usual vision apparatus of our optic nerves and retina, etc.

Although visions come through the Kati channel and appear to manifest in

front of us, they actually arise from our interior natural light. These visions

are not perceived with the normal physical eye. This is inner vision, but it

manifests to us as an external vision.

 

Have you never heard of "The Clear Light of Bliss"? Gyatso?

How about "Bliss of Inner Fire" - Six Yogas of Naropa?

As Lama Tsongkhapa points out, the practice of dream yoga is part of the illusory body yoga. In order to accomplish it, we need to be accomplished in meditation on the clear light of sleep; and in order to succeed in that, we need to have experienced the clear light in the waking state. First we learn to work with the clear light in our waking state, and then in our sleep. After that we can succeed in dream yoga. However, success in both waking- and sleeping-state yogas depends upon inner fire meditation. Inner fire is the fundamental practice.

Courtin, Robina; Yeshe, Lama Thubten; Cameron, Ailsa (2005-06-10). The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa (p. 168). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Only difference between tantra and Dzogchen is that in Dzogchen you accomplish everything through effortless non-meditation spontaneously.

 

 

TI

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Third vision is equivalent to first bhūmi [path of seeing], it is the realization of emptiness, which is the full measure of rigpa. At that point one's knowledge of reality is complete.

 

Didn't you forget about the part about emptiness being inextricably joined with clarity? Luminosity?

 

[yabyum24]

Somehow, Dzogchen terminology threads always feel a bit like this:

[gatito]

^^^

 

Yes

 

And, interestingly, it's not a Dzogchen terminology thread

 

However, it does illustrate the point that I am making very nicely indeed

[Simple_Jack]

Only difference between tantra and Dzogchen is that in Dzogchen you accomplish everything through effortless non-meditation spontaneously.

 

There are plenty of tantric methods within Dzogchen. Only non-initiates would assert the above.

 

However, it does illustrate the point that I am making very nicely indeed

 

Blame, steve, he's the one who started bringing up how he doesn't like the translation of rig pa as 'knowledge'.

[Simple_Jack]

Third vision is equivalent to first bhūmi [path of seeing], it is the realization of emptiness, which is the full measure of rigpa. At that point one's knowledge of reality is complete.

Didn't you forget about the part about emptiness being inextricably joined with clarity? Luminosity?

 

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

 

"Right, the emptiness of inseparable clarity and emptiness refers to the fact that you cannot point to clarity with your finger. You cannot find clarity, nor get rid of clarity.

This has nothing to do with kadag." ~ alwayson

Malcolm Smith: Alwayson is correct in this instance. This is a general statement about the nature of the mind common to all mahayana traditions. We can find ka dag in the sutras such as perfection of wisdom, but this is a quite limited and indirect reference....Generally speaking, tregcho means relaxing into one's knowledge of the basis.

[steve]

There are plenty of tantric methods within Dzogchen. Only non-initiates would assert the above.

If it is Tantra, it is not Dzogchen.

Tantra is the path of transformation, there is no transformation in Dzogchen.

Dzogchen is the path of self-liberation, transformation does not occur.

 

 

Blame, steve, he's the one who started bringing up how he doesn't like the translation of rig pa as 'knowledge'.

Guilty as charged, my earlier comment was tongue in cheek.

[yabyum24]

If it is Tantra, it is not Dzogchen.

Tantra is the path of transformation, there is no transformation in Dzogchen.

Dzogchen is the path of self-liberation, transformation does not occur.

Brilliant.

[Simple_Jack]

If it is Tantra, it is not Dzogchen.

Tantra is the path of transformation, there is no transformation in Dzogchen.

Dzogchen is the path of self-liberation, transformation does not occur.

 

It has abhisheka/direct introduction which is a shared feature between all tantric systems. It employs methods which work with tantric anatomy as these are classifiable as 'tantric practices' i.e. togal, guru yoga, semzin, rushan, dream yoga, karmamudra, phowa, etc. Many Dzogchen tertons also revealed mahayoga and anuyoga terma revelations which are a part of such nyintig cycles such as the Longchen nyintig cycle.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[steve]

It has abhisheka/direct introduction which is a shared feature between all tantric systems. It employs methods which work with tantric anatomy as these are classifiable as 'tantric practices' i.e. togal, guru yoga, semzin, rushan, dream yoga, karmamudra, phowa, etc. Many Dzogchen tertons also revealed mahayoga and anuyoga terma revelations which are a part of such nyintig cycles such as the Longchen nyintig cycle.

 

I still disagree.

 

Direct introduction is not transformation, it is not, in and of itself a tantric method. It is a pointing out of what is always already there. The other things you mention, except thogal, are not Dzogchen practice, they are preliminaries or ancillaries.

In a Dzogchen context, guru yoga is more about empowerment and refuge than transformation. If one is able to abide in the nature of mind (Dzogchen), nothing else is necessary. Everything else simply helps us get to that point. Thogal, on the other hand, is a Dzogchen practice. Not sure how you consider that tantric. Thogal does not involve transformation, just recognition of the spontaneous display of the Natural State.

 

I'm currently reading Bönpo Dzogchen Teachings by Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche and he goes to great lengths to distinguish between Dzogchen and Tantra (as well as Mahamudra and Sutrayana). I think I know how you feel about Bön so take or leave that reference as you wish.

[Simple_Jack]

Direct introduction is not transformation, it is not, in and of itself a tantric method. It is a pointing out of what is always already there. The other things you mention, except thogal, are not Dzogchen practice, they are preliminaries or ancillaries.

 

Direct introduction, in all tantric systems, are a means to introduce one to the nature of the three kayas. Methods, which are classifiable as tantric practices, not as sutric practices, are employed in Dzogchen; that's the point I'm trying to get across.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

I'm currently reading Bönpo Dzogchen Teachings by Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche and he goes to great lengths to distinguish between Dzogchen and Tantra (as well as Mahamudra and Sutrayana). I think I know how you feel about Bön so take or leave that reference as you wish.

 

 

I have one of his books.

[C T]

sutric paths have methods too. Vipassana is a method. Theravadins practice vipassana, dont they? They also do a lot of mantra recitations.

Edited March 11, 2014 by C T

[Simple_Jack]

sutric paths have methods too. Vipassana is a method. Theravadins practice vipassana, dont they?

 

Yes they do, but what I'm trying to say is that Dzogchen employs methods which are classifiable as 'tantric practices'. TI seems to think that Dzogchenpa's limit their repertoire to formless shamatha and tregcho.