Fuck karma

[Apech]

A History of Indian Buddhism: From Śākyamuni to Early Mahāyāna

By Akira Hirakawa

 

suggests all 12 links are karma, like CT said.

 

But not any particular link of the 12 links is karma

 

Ok I see that point and I don't have problem with it ... I still however see the perspective of the many writers who do associate karma perhaps not exclusively but with some emphasis on the 2nd step.

[yabyum24]

1. That last one seems like the most familiar to us humans. The others go a bit deeper. ?

 

2. Hold on, re-emerge? Thought they were all dissolved including the cycle of death and rebirth? You mean you have to keep getting rid of these 12 over many lifetimes? :> Or is it a once and you are done sort of thing?

 

3. Soooo say you only get to #3, that's it start over from number 12 next life?

 

4. So how does your average westerner with a full time job, 2 kids, living in a city, with many distractions manage this?

 

Lots of questions. I'll try to do them justice (briefly)

 

1. Suffering can be interpreted in different ways. The obvious one is the stuff we all know but it would be disingenuous to claim that all life is this kind of suffering. As Marblehead points out, there's bikinis and short skirts etc. Samsara is not called the Desire Realm for nothing. Some of it feels really good, so let's check this out.

 

Buddha claimed that he only ever taught about 2 things; stress and it's release. Wow, that's not much and what did he mean? (later).

 

Stress (the one we know about) is unpleasant. It's release can comprise of many things; sex, alcohol, tobacco or whatever (no moral judgement). Anything which relieves stress, we like. It's all fairly obvious. Addiction to anything is the repeated need for relief.

 

2. But it goes way deeper than this. In deep states of meditation (Jhana), inherent underlying stress is shed and it can be experienced exactly how this happens. Of course when you arise from such a state, the mind contracts again and you can feel how the underlying stress returns.

 

Repeated practice of this begins to dissipate the self-grasping mind and the stress does not return to the level it was previously.

 

This is really what Buddha is getting at. Self-grasping mind causes stress, so there can even be stress when pursuing our normal 'stress-busting' pleasures. Yeah, even those contain the stress of a contracted mind.

 

Buddha re-emerged. Same body, aggregates etc. but samsara no longer wielded any power over his mind - he was unbound in the here and now. Liberated.

 

3. I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't comment on that but there are recognized stages of attainment. But all 12 links are present to your awareness in some measure, even now. It's only the depth of insight which ultimately transforms your being.

 

4. By meditating on the breath. Simple. You only need a modicum of seclusion - a bit of 'me time' and to have the intent.

Edited December 14, 2013 by yabyum24

[BaguaKicksAss]

(source: http://indiagitasociety.org/uploads/Theory_of_Karma.pdf)

 

Theory of Karma

 

1. What is Karma?

Any action is Karma. An action can be physical, mental, or even verbal. Thinking is also an action. If you decide not to act it is also an action.

 

Thoughts even, crap. Hmmm, perhaps this is why sometimes people's thoughts can send out such strong energy. I've had some thoughts by others hit me when in a very open and receptive state and been surprised! I've also noticed with my own certain types/intensities of them go and manifest themselves rather quickly. Trying to be neutral all the time though, I'm so not there.

 

2. What are various types of Karma?

Kriyaman karma- routine actions.

Sanchit karma- accumulative actions.

Prarabtha karma- ripe reaction (some call it luck ).

 

I like this last one . So on my path we have several baths and incenses and such to increase good luck, get rid of bad luck and so forth. Also baths to disconnect past relationships.

 

I've been fortunate and had more luck than most (so I feel and so many have told me). However an odd thing, when I was married, my luck went all to hell for that time, and about the same number of years afterwards. His luck improved though *grumble*.

 

Things like this make me wonder if this happens to a lesser level with all people we are in regular contact with (or perhaps even brief contact). JAJ talks about group karma, karma from others and so forth. I did a good deal of disconnecting some past relationships after learning about the implications of this .

 

I also put some thought into this regarding TTBs after becoming staff...

 

How you decide to respond to these fruits is also an action.

 

Interesting.

 

3. What is good Karma?

There is no such thing as “good” or “bad” in the theory of karma. Both bind you. A Good deed will have good consequences and bad deed will have painful results.

 

Is it really this cut and dry? Also who/what is to decide which is a good and which is a bad action? Later in this thread it is talked about how we sort of make karma (though I may have understood that wrong), so is this based on my own biases, beleifs and perceptions? Or some universal force's? Or? Based on intentions behind things? I have seen (and done myself) people doing things with the best intentions at the time, but which turned out to be quite negative for others, and wrong in many ways.

 

4. Why do good people seem to suffer more? Why do bad people appear luckier?

The theory of karma is difficult to understand. “ Gahana karmno gati.” If you understand the theory, everything will make sense. Things happen as they should.

 

So those "good people" can learn what they need to? Get off the wheel faster? Also our perception of what a "good" person is, is very limited at times I find. Also I have found that what we view as someone suffering, may not in fact be suffering for them.

 

5. What is Nishkam Karma?

Karma performed without selfishness is Nishkam karma (one without expection).

Akarma is opposite of vikarma. Laziness is not Akarma.

 

The TTBs mods must have several lifetimes worth of this stuff!

 

Also I noticed some pretty interesting energies and stuff happen when I was volunteering. Thinking about it, the lady who did the most work with the local homeless and shelter residents of the skid row area, smiles more than most people I have ever met. I mean actual smiles not the phony ones. Also the groups she helps lead have some pretty interesting unexplained luck happen.

 

I personally find life kinda meaningless without doing at least a bit of volunteering/helping others. Though my reasons are usually hating to see others stuff (I can feel it, darn empathy). I also like to balance out the odds a bit sometimes .

 

Few principles of Karma Theory

1. The karma theory has no exceptions. You cannot escape the consequences. The impact can be reduced or modified. How you respond to the “fruits” of your past action binds you to your next chain of Karma, modern science will interpret as genetic DNA decoding/genetic imprint, example: King Dasharatha and Shravana.

 

Uh oh, there's been a lot of taking it for granted in the first half of my life... I'm trying to think of some examples of "the impact can be reduced" and can't seem to come up with many. Though I have sometimes done work to at least have what seems like a horrid situation lead to some growth, lessons and change, instead of it just sucking with no benefit.

 

I think with all of the magic I have practiced (in this lifetime alone) I've got a giant karmic debt there somewhere. (unless the half I've done for others with no benefit to myself cancels some out or something). I'm good with all that though, still worth it . Though in Taoist magic apparently only magic done for others with no personal benefit is the only type which should be done.

 

2. Experience of your level of pain/pleasure depends upon your Gunas- inner character.

Three major gunas: Satvic (noble), Rajas (undeveloped), Tamas (evil), example: a doctor treats his patients differently.

 

This makes perfect sense, thinking about it. Not seen much inner peace in mean people.

 

Also the blackest magicians I've ever met I sometimes wonder why their darn karma isn't catching up to them in this life lol, but then I got to contemplating on it, and I think maybe it does in one sense, they are not happy people (the few I've met anyways). Which came first, the chicken or the egg is the other bit I wonder.

 

3. The fruits of your action may bind you in your next birth. Reincarnation goes on until you break the chain or have paid for all your actions: good or bad.

 

Uhm, it sounds like sitting still, doing nothing with no thoughts for a lifetime or 3 is the only way out of this one? (not that some haven't taken this route or anything).

 

So do immortals (there's several different categories of this), Deities, spirits, etc. also have this karma stuff going on? I'm guessing so. I'm basing this on a source even less credible than wiki, Taoist movies, heh.

 

4. You are free to initiate new karma but the result is not in your hand. If you are too anxious about the result, your karma will be less efficient. King manu says; Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha are the important goals of life.

A: karmanye ave – adhikarastu. B: Ma faleshu kadachan. C: Ma karma fal hetu bhu.

5. Good deeds cannot wipe out bad deeds. Example: Yuthistir saying “ Narova kunjro va. “

 

Interesting . So it *is* far far far more complex than just "good" and "bad" actions! Awesome.

 

6. Declaration or bragging of the good work reduces its gain, and confession of the sins helps you reduce the impact. Example: King Yayati lost to Indra. Jesal was helped by Toral.

 

With that first part, oops. The whole confessions thing, oh yeah, most definitely!! Though in my case, I have a very different view of "sins" than... well most religions anyways. Still seems to work extremely well. Self forgiveness too.

 

7. Inner thought or motive makes the differences. Exqmple: Shabari and Ram.

Arjuna is reluctant to fight but Shri Krishna tells him to kill for good reason.

 

I like this one, I've always felt this way on a personal level. I'm able to forgive people of actions if they didn't have some nasty motives behind it.

 

8. Goal of a wise man is to perform the work without binding himself. Yoga means to unite. Harmony between the inner self and the outer world reduces the conflicts. A balanced link between the mind, speech and action brings inner peace. Yogaha karmashu kaushalum. “ Skillful performance is yoga”

 

Give me another lifetime on this one, still working on it .

 

9. A yogi works but remains unattached.

 

This is one of my current projects, to do this, as much as possible. It's really hard.

 

How does he do that? Certain Karma does not bind you. For Example: action performed as your duty. Work performed without any selfish motive. If a soldier kills during a war he is not a murderer.

Karmayogi works for the sake of his duty. He does the best of what he can do without the selfish motive or anxiety of results. “Unattached “does not mean he does a second class job. He takes victory and defeat in a matured stride.

 

I don't like this one, and might not necessarily agree with it (yes yes I know damn noob arguing with the ancient texts again lol).

 

The actions out of duty I can think of, I have not enjoyed much at all. Though I guess it would depend on your definition of it.

 

10. Gyan Yogi: Enlightened one has the spiritual wisdom in anything he does. He/she have fully realized God. All his actions are therefore part of his oneness with God. Hence the fruits or the chain of action does not bind him, e.g. crime and punishment in your dream disappear when you wake up.

 

The brief moments that it feels like I'm doing this (the bolded bits; or something similar) are awesome . But doing this (the bolded bits; or something similar) 24x7? Not so sure I'm up for that one. I think that's how Taoist priests go about it though, and probably the ultimate goal. Much respect for folks who do do this.

 

11. Bhakti Yoga says if you submit all your actions to your love for God, all your actions are part of your worship. “Yat karosi yada nyasi .. Submit all your action to me, they will purify instantly.”

 

I have practiced my Bagua with this in mind sometimes :wub: Well OK other stuff too. K, a few more lifetimes on this... It is most definitely an enjoyable state though.

 

This, and all the stuff above, I never thought of in the context of karma though, ever before. Funky. More like "what works and what does not" in the realm of magic.

 

12. All methods of doing yoga (Karma, Gyana, Bhakti ) ultimately result in Moksha or Nirvana. This is the stage where you are free from all the debts of your actions and you are one with God. You need not to take birth again. Free from birth, death, pain, pleasure. Thus you can reach a state of divine joy forever.

In summary, the theory of Karma provides a special insight in how you act and interact with your inner self and outer world. Your perceptions of the things make the difference. Karma does not mean that life has to be dull. In fact, the theory helps you work hard and solve your problem leading to more success and happiness. A Karma Yogi is like a good sportsman. He works hard at practice, plays the game with all his mind, body and heart. He tries to improve his skill in his game as he reaches a higher level. He enjoys the game but does not play just to win the game. In essence, he is a cool guy who does not get upset or unduly happy regardless of the outcome. He looks at the bigger picture and long range goal of his life.

 

 

 

Blessings of 'Limitied but Good' Karma

:wub: :wub: :wub:

 

The whole free from it all, I experienced such a state for several hours (after a 6 month retreat). Wonderful feeling and experience. Now just to figure out why I'm so resistant to this 24x7x365.

 

So the rules for karma are sort of set in stone? They are also apparently above and beyond our thoughts and creation? (seems they would be if there is some universally recognized list)

 

Interesting for my brain at the very least, not so sure I will go changing anything though... seems like too much thought put into this sort of thing wouldn't be good either, as it would no longer be natural.

 

Sounds like some of this is what others refer to as "fate"?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Sooooo glad I didn't type all that out yesterday when the site went down! (though the back button in the browser can save such things).

[RongzomFan]

Fuck karma?

 

Yes fucking is karma.

 

Karmamudra

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmamudra

[RongzomFan]

I don't cite anything specific from Wikipedia. So don't call me a hypocrite.

[chegg]

.

Edited March 28, 2015 by chegg

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

Careful.

 

That f**k karma can bite you on the asp.

 

...

[Nungali]

If karma is any action ... including thought ... and one must be aware of that action ... and not many are; I too am reminded of Kabbalah ...specifically the Tree of Life, and the arrangement at the top (that not many can perceive) and the whole issue straddles the Abyss (between the ideal world and the world of action).

 

 

'Action' seems a polarity between Geburah ('force' and Severity) and Chesed ( 'modification' and Mercy) ;

 

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil.’ [Liber Librae]

 

 

Going ‘up’ the Tree from here we cross the Abyss (into an ideal world of Triplicity – Yin and Yang ‘crowned’ by Tao if one wants … or a multitude of other triple forms), in the Abyss is Daath – knowledge … which informs action . But as we know, a little knowledge can be dangerous … more knowledge is needed …’ knowledge’ in the form of (moving further up the Tree, now to sphere 3 ) Binah – Understanding ; an understanding of where that knowledge leads and the effects (or Karma ?) of applying the knowledge.

 

Next is sphere 2 ; Chokmah – wisdom; knowing the right action to take considering all factors and with the understanding to effect the material situation (action), the ‘right’ way. Accessing the first sphere ; Kether – Crown , Tao , or original principle, imbues the ‘right action’ with a Taoist flavour, i.e. the action should be in harmony with natural forces to use them as going against them requires more action and force (and besides I am inherently lazy )

 

 

http://esotericgoldendawn.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/tree-of-life.jpg

Edited December 14, 2013 by Nungali

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

They never f**kin' listen!

 

F**kin' idiots!

 

Shut up and listen!

 

That's my karma dharma right there.

 

When the band tightens round your head you listen good an' proper.

 

...

Edited December 14, 2013 by Captain Mar-Vell

[BaguaKicksAss]

If karma is any action ... including thought ... and one must be aware of that action ... and not many are; I too am reminded of Kabbalah ...specifically the Tree of Life, and the arrangement at the top (that not many can perceive) and the whole issue straddles the Abyss (between the ideal world and the world of action).

 

 

'Action' seems a polarity between Geburah ('force' and Severity) and Chesed ( 'modification' and Mercy) ;

 

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil.’ [Liber Librae]

 

 

Going ‘up’ the Tree from here we cross the Abyss (into an ideal world of Triplicity – Yin and Yang ‘crowned’ by Tao if one wants … or a multitude of other triple forms), in the Abyss is Daath – knowledge … which informs action . But as we know, a little knowledge can be dangerous … more knowledge is needed …’ knowledge’ in the form of (moving further up the Tree, now to sphere 3 ) Binah – Understanding ; an understanding of where that knowledge leads and the effects (or Karma ?) of applying the knowledge.

 

Next is sphere 2 ; Chokmah – wisdom; knowing the right action to take considering all factors and with the understanding to effect the material situation (action), the ‘right’ way. Accessing the first sphere ; Kether – Crown , Tao , or original principle, imbues the ‘right action’ with a Taoist flavour, i.e. the action should be in harmony with natural forces to use them as going against them requires more action and force (and besides I am inherently lazy )

 

 

http://esotericgoldendawn.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/tree-of-life.jpg

 

I did spend the first 10 years of my practice wandering around the ToL in various ways . Somewhere in there I decided the Enochian aethyres were *much* more interesting (though unlike most I do not see them as a side by side correlation at all).

 

I'll admit to wondering in this whole conversation where Da'ath/the abyss might come into all this, and if it does in these systems.

 

Then there was the sojourning into the inverted tree, and the backroads of the aethyres for a good while after this (too much reading Grant I think). Interesting times. I wonder what the Eastern equivalent would be? Though I'm pretty sure it is somewhere along the lines of "going backward" or "just don't go there" .

Edited December 15, 2013 by BaguaKicksAss

[BaguaKicksAss]

That was a lot of typing. It was a good read.

 

I vaguely remember reading about the kabbalah, where a person needs to accomplish specific tasks in their life in order to retrieve their 'sparks'. This might be related to paying off karmic debt.

 

It is also possible to take on other people's karma. E.g., If someone gets ill, you can heal them by taking on the illness yourself (not recommended as it comes to you seven fold). Advanced healers take on other's karma but are well able to dissolve it quickly. Probably best to call on the holy spirit.

 

 

Christians claim that Jesus Christ can erase your debt. A free ride back to heaven

 

Blessings to you

:wub: :wub:

 

That taking on another's karma thing sounds horrid, I'll pass thanks . Pretty neat about being at a level where you can just dissolve it. Hold on a sec... I thought that in the last bit it was said no way out of karma? Apparently someone can take it from you and dissolve it? Though I'm sure one has to get approval. Hell I have to even get approval to do basic money magics for folks, and any strong healing. What I mean is sometimes I go to start something and the universe tells me "uhm no, that isn't allowed". I guess I could just go it anyways, but I err on the side of caution with this.

 

At one point I was going to embark on a project to help someone else out. Someone who was going through a bit of a living hell. So I ask the powers that be... and they basically say "remember that movie where the husband goes into hell to save his wife, but then he ends up getting caught there?" (well really they just made me remember scenes from said movie, but you get the idea). That was their analogy for how it would go for me for a time at least. Sounds similar to the above, but apparently much more difficult and more complicated than a healer being strong/enlightened enough to take karma and dissolve it.

 

PS I noticed my heart blessings are diminishing with each post .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Fuck karma?

 

Yes fucking is karma.

 

Karmamudra

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmamudra

 

Seems silly to not do this or something similar if one has a partner .

 

On the other side of things, would gratuitous sex bring about heaploads of negative karma?

 

 

According to most Tibetan Buddhist teachers, karmamudra is necessary in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime.

 

Interesting .

 

Makes one wonder if some combining of forces (the 2 ppl) is needed. (yes I know it says you can do the practice along with visualized partner, but still I wonder).

 

Yes I quoted wiki, but you gave me the link, so the wiki karma is on you .

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

edited

 

...

Edited December 15, 2013 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

edited

 

...

Edited December 15, 2013 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Nungali]

 

Pretty neat about being at a level where you can just dissolve it. Hold on a sec... I thought that in the last bit it was said no way out of karma? Apparently someone can take it from you and dissolve it?

Not only that ... in some systems one can have it 'dissolved' before one even HAS it in the first place ... thereby allowing one free reign to commit 'unspeakable actions'.

 

However, the later Middle Ages saw the growth of considerable abuses. Greedy commissaries sought to extract the maximum amount of money for each indulgence.[46] Professional "pardoners"[6] (quaestores in Latin) - who were sent to collect alms for a specific project - practiced the unrestricted sale of indulgences. Many of these quaestores exceeded Church teachings, whether in avarice or ignorant zeal, and promised impossible rewards like salvation from eternal damnation in return for money.[44] With the permission of the Church, indulgences also became a way for Catholic rulers to fund expensive projects, such as Crusades and cathedrals, by keeping a significant portion of the money raised from indulgences in their lands.[44] There was a tendency to forge documents declaring that indulgences had been granted.[44] Indulgences grew to extraordinary magnitude, in terms of longevity and breadth of forgiveness.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

Edited December 15, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Tantra

[Nungali]

being complex mind illusion creatures we need complexities.

 

You want it simple ???

 

They all say the same thing;

 

JesusBuddhaZoroasterEtc ; If you want life to be better and nicer, then go around being better and nicer to each other.

 

But who on Earth is going to listen to that !

Edited December 15, 2013 by Nungali

[chegg]

That taking on another's karma thing sounds horrid, I'll pass thanks . Pretty neat about being at a level where you can just dissolve it. Hold on a sec... I thought that in the last bit it was said no way out of karma? Apparently someone can take it from you and dissolve it? Though I'm sure one has to get approval. Hell I have to even get approval to do basic money magics for folks, and any strong healing. What I mean is sometimes I go to start something and the universe tells me "uhm no, that isn't allowed". I guess I could just go it anyways, but I err on the side of caution with this.

 

At one point I was going to embark on a project to help someone else out. Someone who was going through a bit of a living hell. So I ask the powers that be... and they basically say "remember that movie where the husband goes into hell to save his wife, but then he ends up getting caught there?" (well really they just made me remember scenes from said movie, but you get the idea). That was their analogy for how it would go for me for a time at least. Sounds similar to the above, but apparently much more difficult and more complicated than a healer being strong/enlightened enough to take karma and dissolve it.

 

PS I noticed my heart blessings are diminishing with each post .

 

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. By 'dissolving' it, I mean to say that they can get 'Christ' to take up a large proportion of it. That is the mechanism as I understand it.

 

 

 

Blessings of the Karma you want!

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

[RongzomFan]

Anyone want to add why there are so many Buddhist written works and sacred texts, if the basic tenents are so simple?

 

 

Buddhism isn't simple at all.

Edited December 15, 2013 by RongzomFan

[Nungali]

Well ... maybe need complexities isn't quiet right ...

 

Tantrics do ... otherwise just go and empty your mind and mediate on absolutely nothing a la Zen/Suzuki style ... Oh, its sooo easy to quieten the mind isn't it (considering the aim of 'quieten' is just to release it to its normal function

 

Thing is we are complex ... and the situation we are in can be complex ... and so the solution needs, at times to be complex. But not TOOOO complex ... it can be stripped back to basic psychological process that we need to extract ourselves from ... that's why I like Buddhism.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Nungali

[RongzomFan]

Then why do I find you simply unhelpful in explaining Buddhism to Bums when they ask?

 

When they ask you direct questions, that is.

If you say so.

[RongzomFan]

Wow people have different perceptions.

 

Tibetan_Ice always says I post too much stuff from books, and rainbowvein says I don't help people.

[RongzomFan]

This is a good summary of Buddhism.


Nagarjuna in ''Mūlamadhyamakakārikā'' 21.12. states:
"An existent does not arise from an existent;
neither does an existent arise from a non-existent.
A non-existent does not arise from a non-existent;
neither does a non-existent arise from an existent."

Here are some quotations from 2 top books, Nagarjuna's Reason Sixty and Center of the Sunlit Sky:

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."
-Candrakirti

"Once one asserts things, one will succumb to the view of seeing such by imagining their beginning, middle and end; hence that grasping at things is the cause of all views."
-Candrakirti

"the perfectly enlightened buddhas-proclaimed, "What is dependently created is uncreated."
-Candrakirti

"Likewise, here as well, the Lord Buddha’s pronouncement that "What is dependently created is objectively uncreated," is to counteract insistence on the objectivity of things."
-Candrakirti

"Since relativity is not objectively created, those who, through this reasoning, accept dependent things as resembling the moon in water and reflections in a mirror, understand them as neither objectively true nor false. Therefore, those who think thus regarding dependent things realize that what is dependently arisen cannot be substantially existent, since what is like a reflection is not real. If it were real, that would entail the absurdity that its transformation would be impossible. Yet neither is it unreal, since it manifests as real within the world."
-Candrakirti

Nagarjuna said "If I had any position, I thereby would be at fault. Since
I have no position, I am not at fault at all."

Aryadeva said "Against someone who has no thesis of “existence,
nonexistence, or [both] existence and nonexistence,” it is not possible to
level a charge, even if [this is tried] for a long time."

"I do not say that entities do not exist, because I say that they originate in dependence. “So are you a realist then?” I am not, because I am just a proponent of dependent origination. “What sort of nature is it then that you [propound]?” I propound dependent origination. “What is the meaning of dependent origination?” It has the meaning of the lack of a nature and the meaning of nonarising through a nature [of its own]. It has the meaning of the origination of results with a nature similar to that of illusions, mirages, reflections, cities of scent-eaters, magical creations, and dreams. It has the meaning of emptiness and identitylessness."
-Candrakirti

Nagarjuna in Mūlamadhyamakakārikā 1.1. states:
"Not from themselves, not from something other,
Not from both, and not without a cause-
At any place and any time,
All entities lack arising."

Buddhapālita comments (using consequentalist arguments which ultimately snowballs into Tibetan prasangika vs. svatantrika):
"Entities do not arise from their own intrinsic nature, because their arising would be pointless and because they would arise endlessly. For entities that [already] exist as their own intrinsic nature, there is no need to arise again. If they were to arise despite existing [already], there would be no time when they do not arise; [but] that is also not asserted [by the Enumerators].

Candrakīrti, in ''Madhyamakāvatāra'' VI.14., comments:
"If something were to originate in dependence on something other than it,
Well, then utter darkness could spring from flames
And everything could arise from everything,
Because everything that does not produce [a specific result] is the same in being other [than it]."

Candrakīrti, in the ''Prasannapadā'', comments:
"Entities also do not arise from something other, because there is nothing other."

Nagarjuna in ''Mūlamadhyamakakārikā'' 1.3cd. states:
"If an entity in itself does not exist,
An entity other [than it] does not exist either."

Candrakīrti, in the ''Prasannapadā'', comments:
"Nor do entities arise from both [themselves and others], because this would entail [all] the flaws that were stated for both of these theses and because none of these [disproved possibilities] have the capacity to produce [entities]."

Nagarjuna, in ''Mūlamadhyamakakārikā'' VII.17., states:
"If some nonarisen entity
Existed somewhere,
It might arise.
However, since such does not exist, what would arise?"

Nagarjuna, in ''Mūlamadhyamakakārikā'' VII.19cd., states:
"If something that lacks arising could arise,
Just about anything could arise in this way."

Candrakīrti, in ''Madhyamakāvatāra'' VI.151., comments:
"It is not asserted that a chariot is something other than its parts.
It is not something that is not other, nor does it possess them.
It does not exist in the parts, nor do the parts exist in it.
It is neither their mere collection nor the shape—thus is the analogy."

[Nungali]

Is this why you find your rituals and magic and altars helpful?

 

yes ... for a tantric approach

 

I also have a 'void' temple for the 'austere' approach.

 

A magical altar and a temple must be set up the right way ... it just isn't a hodge podge of things we like ... as so many of them are ... and my 'casual ones' are.

 

If I want to invoke Venus (or Krishna or .... ) my mind and awareness needs to focus on that. But I know it will wander ... that's fine ... the vision wanders; there is the statue of Venus, the colours of Venus ... my 'un /sub conscious' wanders , there is the magick square of Venus, the colours of Venus ... mind distracted by smell? Flood the temple with the incense of Venus ... body restless ? Throw in 7 circumambulations of Venus ... feel like a chat ? poems prayers to Venus .

 

This is the path of devotion or Bhakti and just one of the methods of magick - Liber Astarte ... 'tis the most dangerous path for the Magician though ... ever noticed how Hare Khrishna's seem obssesed about Krishna ?

 

Obsession is not a magical path! it is an aberration off the path of magick in that sector relating to 'Acts of Worship' (Bhakti Yoga) - Union by Love ... if this path is polluted by 'fear of surrender '' then one moves into obsession and then ignorance

 

http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016.html

Edited December 15, 2013 by Nungali