Gospel of Thomas

[noonespecial]

Hi Michael, it's a bit tricky to reply to that post with the quotes and all, briefly, in simplest terms we can say, "There is no resurrection body unless there is first a (corrupt) body" - likewise, and I think this applies to all of the above, Jabir writes, "Our stone is one, one medicine, to which we add nothing, from which we take nothing away, only removing that which is superfluous." So the problem we are dealing with is a dysfunction (that which is superfluous) inherent in the physical world (harkening back to the Fall of Adam), I would imagine removing these 'filters' inherently fixes the Soul which is caught between Matter and Spirit. 

 

edit: Also I agree the soul/noetic body is a blueprint, but it remains just that, a blueprint, and must be manipulated from Malkuth/Matter or else it is tossed into the fire for the 2nd death (to put it Biblically), meaning it is not the eternal part of man. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by noonespecial

[Jeff]

Hi Michael, it's a bit tricky to reply to that post with the quotes and all, briefly, in simplest terms we can say, "There is no resurrection body unless there is first a (corrupt) body" - likewise, and I think this applies to all of the above, Jabir writes, "Our stone is one, one medicine, to which we add nothing, from which we take nothing away, only removing that which is superfluous." So the problem we are dealing with is a dysfunction (that which is superfluous) inherent in the physical world (harkening back to the Fall of Adam), I would imagine removing these 'filters' inherently fixes the Soul which is caught between Matter and Spirit. 

 

edit: Also I agree the soul/noetic body is a blueprint, but it remains just that, a blueprint, and must be manipulated from Malkuth/Matter or else it is tossed into the fire for the 2nd death (to put it Biblically), meaning it is not the eternal part of man.

Here is some more from the New Testament on this point...

 

Romans 8:6-17

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Jeff

[Jeff]

What concept is beyond unity? Would you name it for us? Thanks.

 

 

Haha... No concept is beyond unity... That is the point...

 

What is beyond it is not conceptualizable by the "mind"...

[Jeff]

I won't sidetrack this thread for but one post.

 

I have learned a few concepts beyond unity. Beyond a select few, you're right, there are no words for levels higher. One concept that many may be familiar with:

 

Nature.

 

 

Best to you --

 

 

Nature is a concept of the mind... It is that which exists as part of a "natural order/flow", and hence a subset of "existence", which is itself a subset of "unity".

[Jeff]

OK, one more post.

 

In the Taoist cultivation, you will hear the word Nature written a lot by the ancient achieved ones. Here is how they experienced the progression, in words:

 

Nature > Tai Chi > Tao > Heavens > Humans > Earth

 

 

But this isn't a Taoist thread, so I will say goodbye (again).

 

 

 

And where would you put "unity" in that progression?  Would it not be the bucket that contains all of your levels of progression? Is not unity beyond or inclusive of all concepts of progression (otherwise the stuff/stages could not have been unified)?

 

Bye again.  

[Jeff]

Oh, Unity = Tao

 

Represented by the circle.

 

 

 

Thanks. I guess the word unity has pretty broad differences in meaning for us.  

[Jonesboy]

35. Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands.

 

 

Any other thoughts for this one?

[noonespecial]

Any other thoughts for this one?

 

Perhaps the 'strong-person' is the conscious mind; that which classifies, divides and judges (if we are honest with ourselves is this not the most natural, automatic process), the aspect of mind which inherently disbelieves.

 

The method of disarming this strong-person? Prayer, meditation, ritual, evocation, repetition, communal living (which removes the need for 'that' survival mechanism or at least lessens it) etc.

 

edit: On a less esoteric tip, things that do not require cognition, dance, freestyle play of music, drawing, et al.

Edited July 12, 2016 by noonespecial

[Mark Foote]

Hi Michael, it's a bit tricky to reply to that post with the quotes and all, briefly, in simplest terms we can say, "There is no resurrection body unless there is first a (corrupt) body" - likewise, and I think this applies to all of the above, Jabir writes, "Our stone is one, one medicine, to which we add nothing, from which we take nothing away, only removing that which is superfluous." So the problem we are dealing with is a dysfunction (that which is superfluous) inherent in the physical world (harkening back to the Fall of Adam), I would imagine removing these 'filters' inherently fixes the Soul which is caught between Matter and Spirit. 

 

edit: Also I agree the soul/noetic body is a blueprint, but it remains just that, a blueprint, and must be manipulated from Malkuth/Matter or else it is tossed into the fire for the 2nd death (to put it Biblically), meaning it is not the eternal part of man. 

 

With regard to "one stone", quote from Kobun Chino Otogawa, who came to San Francisco from Eiheiji to help Shunryu Suzuki found Tassajara Zen Monastery:

 

“One might talk about, discuss about, what does it mean to be ‘enlightened’. It is something to do with going back to, going back to what you actually are. It’s not like what you become. That’s an idea. It’s not some day, or somewhere from this place, from what you are. And sitting in meditation, being who you are, is something to do with this facing to your own true figure. Not made up or taught or wished to be.”

[Mark Foote]

And yet, if the Spirit came into existence because of the Material world it is even a greater wonder, the 'wonder of wonders' and look how 'poverty' is used in Verse 3 and who it is used in reference too.

 

Compare now with the the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Verses 1 & 2 - 

 

-------

1) Here (is) a true explanation, concerning which there can be no doubt.

2) It attests: The above (Spirit) from the below (Material), and the below (Material) from the above (Spirit) - the work of the miracle of the One.

-------

 

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/emerald.html

 

edit - add link.

 

Not seeing that the "poverty" in verse 3 implies anything like the same for poverty as used in 29.  With Gautama the Buddha as well, his use of "before" and "behind" usually referred to past and present, but in the stanza I quoted about developing pyschic powers, I have to believe it had a totally different meaning (because of the explanation he gave for "above as below").  ?

[Mark Foote]

Gnostic texts talk about the body as "the grave of the soul"; and how the thoughts that we have while within the body are never the same like the ones we can have without. Along the same lines, we read in Platonic writings about the water that we drink before we come into physical incarnation, which makes us forget the state we existed in before. Anamnesis or remembering our original state therefore becomes the goal of spiritual practice.

 

Such statements would mean little to me if I hadn't made some OOB experiences during lucid dreams in which I felt to be pure energy; it was awesome, just undescribable and actually hard to recall now. Feelings of bliss that I just don't have the words to describe. I conclude that those texts I mentioned must have been written by people who had made similar experiences.

 

I am looking for possibilities to feel that way while in my body. It is indeed a state of imprisonment; living on a much lower frequency, with so many restrictions. Yet, using methods of cultivation, this frequency can be raised to approach the spirit. Surely I have experienced some such exalted states in my waking state too; however imperfect they may have been by comparison, they were enough to show me the potential that resides within the physical condition.

 

While there are many levels of attainment along the cultivator's way, and many ways to get there. Some stop at transcending the physical. But I consider translating spirit into matter the highest achievement.

 

In the view of Hermetic alchemy, the whole created world is aspiring to full expression of Spirit - "turning lead into gold," as it were.

 

Thus the Emerald Tablet teaches: "The father of all perfection in the whole world is here," and: "Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth."

 

And this is identically what Jesus in the GoT - in so many passages - speaks to.

 

Michael, have you checked out Olaf Blanke's work?  Olaf was preparing people for surgery in connection with their epilepsy, and discovered that poking electrodes in the brain in the temporal region could trigger an out of body experience in some patients.  

 

Blanke studied the medical literature on OBE, and he and a colleague Christine Mohr have a paper about their study with their conclusions online.  Basically, his hypothesis is that the three kinds of OBE are produced by challenges with respect to the coordination of the vestibular, otolithic, proprioceptive, and ocular senses (so equalibrium, gravity, place and motion in muscles/ligaments/joints, and vision).

 

I know, I know, somebody read what was on a paper on top of a shelf while they were floating out of their body, somebody saw a tennis shoe on top of a building.  Not saying there isn't more to it sometimes.  

 

Since I've become more aware of these senses and the role they play in the feeling of self, in the location of self, I've found cessation of habitual activity a more regular visitor to my breathing, which is a source of happiness to me.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Mark Foote

[noonespecial]

With regard to "one stone", quote from Kobun Chino Otogawa, who came to San Francisco from Eiheiji to help Shunryu Suzuki found Tassajara Zen Monastery:

 

“One might talk about, discuss about, what does it mean to be ‘enlightened’. It is something to do with going back to, going back to what you actually are. It’s not like what you become. That’s an idea. It’s not some day, or somewhere from this place, from what you are. And sitting in meditation, being who you are, is something to do with this facing to your own true figure. Not made up or taught or wished to be.”

 

What does that have to do with anything? We here to discuss, not drop quotes about how discussing things is not enlightenment. 

[Jonesboy]

Perhaps the 'strong-person' is the conscious mind; that which classifies, divides and judges (if we are honest with ourselves is this not the most natural, automatic process), the aspect of mind which inherently disbelieves.

 

The method of disarming this strong-person? Prayer, meditation, ritual, evocation, repetition, communal living (which removes the need for 'that' survival mechanism or at least lessens it) etc.

 

edit: On a less esoteric tip, things that do not require cognition, dance, freestyle play of music, drawing, et al.

That is very close to what I had said as well:

 

Looking at this from the perspective of working with others in a transmission based perspective.

 

What I have found is that one thing that is required is for someone to be open to the experience. If they are not "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force". If one is open or subdued the ego mind or "tying his hands". Then one is able to help one let go of there issues, the "things" they think they need to be happy, obstructions or the loot within ones house.

[Jonesboy]

Moving on,

 

36. Jesus said, "Do not fret, from morning to evening and from evening to morning, [about your food--what you're going to eat, or about your clothing--] What you are going to wear. [You're much better than the lilies, which neither card nor spin. As for you, when you have no garment, what will you put on? Who might add to your stature? That very one will give you your garments.]"

 

Any thoughts?

 

[Mark Foote]

What does that have to do with anything? We here to discuss, not drop quotes about how discussing things is not enlightenment. 

 

Jabir writes, "Our stone is one, one medicine, to which we add nothing, from which we take nothing away, only removing that which is superfluous."

 

Kobun:  "It is something to do with going back to, going back to what you actually are. It’s not like what you become."

 

I found those quotes to be very similar, that's all.

[noonespecial]

Jabir writes, "Our stone is one, one medicine, to which we add nothing, from which we take nothing away, only removing that which is superfluous."

 

Kobun:  "It is something to do with going back to, going back to what you actually are. It’s not like what you become."

 

I found those quotes to be very similar, that's all.

 

Aha! Got it, sorry I am the type who needs things clearly explained. 

[noonespecial]

Moving on,

 

36. Jesus said, "Do not fret, from morning to evening and from evening to morning, [about your food--what you're going to eat, or about your clothing--] What you are going to wear. [You're much better than the lilies, which neither card nor spin. As for you, when you have no garment, what will you put on? Who might add to your stature? That very one will give you your garments.]"

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

Once you make a connection with the higher functioning (like a plant to the sun) you cease to worry because you are happy where you are (like a plant...he has to be due to his roots), and when you are happy where you are and take little move (like plants), time slows down, you become like a plant, those little moves turn into huge things because you have patience like a plant.

[Jeff]

Trying again on the Gospel of Thomas...

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?" Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

Any thoughts on this verse?

Edited August 17, 2016 by Jeff

[Jonesboy]

Clothes are attachments.

 

When you are free of attachments and present like a child then you will truly see the son of the living one.

[Bindi]

IMO this verse is anachronistic, we have many nudist beaches in Australia, but they don’t tend to be full of people all suddenly seeing the son of the living one, they’re just regular people who happen to be quite relaxed about nudity.

[Michael Sternbach]

The reference to nudity is purely symbolical. It speaks to freeing self from socio-cultural conditioning that hampers its expression. It's about recovering one's child like nature - a common topic also in Daoism and other traditions.

 

[Bindi]

To me it still reads better as actually stripping off, for example in this biblical reference from Mark where stripping appears to be part of an initiation ritual in a mystery school. 
 

In Mark two oblique references can be found that appear to be initiation rituals of the form present in mystery religions - the Gethsemane Youth (Mark 14:51-52), clad only in a loin cloth, who is alone with Jesus when Jesus is arrested, and the youth who was in Jesus' tomb, clad in white garments (Mark 16:5). In such mystery religions, initiates would first strip themselves naked, and later symbolically don white garments, and this proposal has been made by several scholars in explanation of the two youths. In the Secret Gospel of Mark, a third male youth is presented whom Jesus loved, whom Jesus resurrected, and who later came to Jesus naked except for a loin cloth; and, Jesus spent the night with him in order to teach him the mystery of the kingdom of God.
 
http://nlp.cs.nyu.edu/meyers/controversial-wikipedia-corpus/english-html/main/main_0608.html

[Jeff]

The reference to nudity is purely symbolical. It speaks to freeing self from socio-cultural conditioning that hampers its expression. It's about recovering one's child like nature - a common topic also in Daoism and other traditions.

I would agree and think as Jonesboy stated it goes to the nature of one's self perspective. In particular, in those times, many were judged by what they wore. Impressive clothes were a sign of weath and success. Throwing away such things and trampling on them is like throwing away worldly attachments and not caring about what others think about you in the process.

[Jeff]

Moving on to verse 38,  how about this one...?

 

38. Jesus said, "Often you have desired to hear these sayings that I am speaking to you, and you have no one else from whom to hear them. There will be days when you will seek me and you will not find me."

[Kar3n]

Seems as though Jesus is saying to pay attention and absorb the teachings He is providing, because they may not always be delivered in the truest form at a later date.