Aetherous

Unraveling Taoist Yoga

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In reading some of the longer taoist texts such as this one, it seems some of them seem to repeat things over and over in varying poetic fashions. It seems like going in circles for instance some describe the journey of the alchemical process starting in stillness at the lower dantian, and then movement of the chi up the back, and then down the front of the spine, returning again to the lower dantian. This goes on over and over again with added effects each time, until the goal is reached. Visions of falling flowers, snowflakes, lightning, and sounds of thunder are said to be experienced. This all seems like a poetic account, rather than a scientific one. My question is are these texts, in their poetic, repetitive nature, meant to be read as an experience, and training, rather than a factual scientific method? 

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When you change/evolve/develope, the same exercise will give a different result. 

 

At least that is my experience. 

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After many restarts of reading the book, the best thing I found to do is to read the glossary first and organize all the concepts together (maybe on paper). That way, you wont be confused by what the book is saying. Also, skip the introduction and go straight to C1. Read the Intro after all the other chapters.

 

Also, since Taoist yoga is incomplete, you have to look and compare in other texts.

Edited by Emera
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On 11/17/2017 at 8:38 PM, Emera said:

After many restarts of reading the book, the best thing I found to do is to read the glossary first and organize all the concepts together (maybe on paper). That way, you wont be confused by what the book is saying. Also, skip the introduction and go straight to C1. Read the Intro after all the other chapters.

i typed the text of the first 10 chapters into my computer and then converted it by a text-to-speech software, so i can hear it when riding the bus :)

 

i also made a handwritten copy (till chapter 10) ^^

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if problem with reading, then wait a time what has inner desire to accumulate information in a short time as much as possible, like binge. Or

I force myself to read so i practice forcing myself to read.

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On ‚Äé10‚Äé.‚Äé11‚Äé.‚Äé2017 at 6:59 AM, turtlehermit said:

My question is are these texts, in their poetic, repetitive nature, meant to be read as an experience, and training, rather than a factual scientific method? 

 

There is certain ways to write, and you can't use no way. Even a peasant dung shoveling language has its way, you pretty much need to go live there by yourself to get a base and usually only others notice you have that. So imagine how long or waht way is needed to practice to notice yourself.

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13 hours ago, gj551 said:

i typed the text of the first 10 chapters into my computer and then converted it by a text-to-speech software, so i can hear it when riding the bus :)

 

i also made a handwritten copy (till chapter 10) ^^

 

I used onenote to screenshot the pdf pages, ocr it to text, then pass it to a web filter to remove all line breaks, then passed it to a notepad filter to split all the text into sentences line by line for analysis. Took a few sec ^ ^ but before I figured that out, I did the same thing xD.

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On 11/21/2017 at 8:59 PM, Apeiron&Peiron said:

To each their own. I don't think a purely linguistic analysis will do too much for you. It only makes sense to read if you have enough of a direct sense of things to understand, in an embodied way, what it talks about. If you pick up a few exercises and start to feel what is going on, it may get you started. But Eva Wong's "Cultivating Stilness" and "Cultivating the Energy of Life" will probably be a decent help with clarifying terms.

That makes sense to me. reading it more like an instructional poem, rather than a literal, manual. For instance putting a clothes pin on the nose and sitting on a wooden ball doesn't sound like much fun, and rather unnecessary. I understand the process he's describing and most of the alchemical terms, but I just don't see how things like rolling the eyes 36 times and seeing falling flowers and lightning is the only way to go, and will happen for everybody. It would make more sense if this was to be understood as a poetic description. 

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On 9/6/2013 at 1:25 AM, Aetherous said:

All interpretations from all schools are accepted, as long as the intention is to help readers gain more understanding about specific passages from this book.

 

Hi Aetherous,

 

To me 'interpretations' is a good/healthy word when there is respect/balance in one's critique. I sense such respect/balance in these responses:

 

On 9/13/2013 at 0:30 AM, Aetherous said:

Not giving any reasoning is disrespectful, as well as unenlightening, because no one is learning that way.

 

On 10/7/2013 at 1:00 PM, dawei said:

These are rather short answers but I think its better to say less than more for now.

Brevity the soul of wit.

 

On 2/20/2017 at 9:53 AM, Ormus said:

Daoist Yoga is good book,but translation is not the best and also there is missing chapter not translated at all.

 

On 2/20/2017 at 0:52 PM, qicat said:

I am still seeing it as "empty"... Probably not time yet if there is anything useful in it. Or maybe as someone note it is due to translation...

Perhaps.

 

On 8/14/2017 at 11:28 AM, turtlehermit said:

It's like they took the basic teachings from the classic texts and covered them with 50 pages of nonsense. It's hard to believe any Taoist teacher would advocate practicing these techniques word for word. Or maybe this was the point?

 

On 8/14/2017 at 2:46 PM, Tung said:

Hardest book i ever tried to read. Did not get far two chapters maybe. And it seems that is starts at an high level no explanation how to get there.

 

On 11/10/2017 at 0:59 PM, turtlehermit said:

My question is are these texts, in their poetic, repetitive nature, meant to be read as an experience, and training, rather than a factual scientific method? 

 

On 11/14/2017 at 2:33 AM, Mudfoot said:

When you change/evolve/develop, the same exercise will give a different result. At least that is my experience.

My experience too.

 

On 11/14/2017 at 10:08 AM, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Some things are repeated. But I don't think that many of the exercises are repeated.

 

On 11/14/2017 at 10:08 AM, Apeiron&Peiron said:

In general, the book details the process of alchemy and the exercises are described as they acquire relevance to the ongoing process. But, since they are all done in the special state where all your senses have turned inwards and the light of spirit gives you a vision of the things that are happening in your body, they will relate to breath and the eyes. So, in that way, they will all be similar sounding. 

Acceptable explanation.

 

On 11/18/2017 at 3:38 AM, Emera said:

After many restarts of reading the book, the best thing I found to do is to read the glossary first and organize all the concepts together (maybe on paper). That way, you wont be confused by what the book is saying. Also, skip the introduction and go straight to C1. Read the Intro after all the other chapters.

Creative reading.

 

On 11/21/2017 at 7:58 PM, gj551 said:

i typed the text of the first 10 chapters into my computer and then converted it by a text-to-speech software, so i can hear it when riding the bus :). i also made a handwritten copy (till chapter 10) ^^

Cheeky.

 

On 11/21/2017 at 8:30 PM, allinone said:

If problem with reading, then wait a time what has inner desire to accumulate information in a short time as much as possible, like binge. Or I force myself to read so i practice forcing myself to read.

Practical pragmatist.

 

On 11/21/2017 at 8:42 PM, allinone said:

There is certain ways to write, and you can't use no way. Even a peasant dung shoveling language has its way, you pretty much need to go live there by yourself to get a base and usually only others notice you have that. So imagine how long or what way is needed to practice to notice yourself.

Insightful.

 

On 11/22/2017 at 9:52 AM, Emera said:

I used onenote to screenshot the pdf pages, ocr it to text, then pass it to a web filter to remove all line breaks, then passed it to a notepad filter to split all the text into sentences line by line for analysis. Took a few sec ^ ^ but before I figured that out, I did the same thing xD.

?

 

On 11/22/2017 at 9:59 AM, Apeiron&Peiron said:

To each their own. I don't think a purely linguistic analysis will do too much for you. It only makes sense to read if you have enough of a direct sense of things to understand, in an embodied way, what it talks about. If you pick up a few exercises and start to feel what is going on, it may get you started.

I second this.

 

5 hours ago, turtlehermit said:

That makes sense to me. reading it more like an instructional poem, rather than a literal, manual... It would make more sense if this was to be understood as a poetic description. 

Aha! Connection at last.

 

5 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Haha.. Thanks for the "thank you" and quote. But those are actually literal things.

Aha-ha! Reciprocal connection in return.

 

5 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

The flying snow is related to the spirit energy of the heart after transmutation has taken place for a number of times in succession. It is a literal manual. 

Poetry in motion.

 

 

 

- LimA

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On 11/22/2017 at 11:21 PM, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Haha.. Thanks for the "thank you" and quote. But those are actually literal things. The eye movements engage the fiery spirit energy of the heart and the special breathing engages the watery vitality/generative force of the lower dantian. It is a type of Kan and Li exercise. And the Kan and Li exercises are absolutely necessary for this type of energy to remain stable in the system. But some variety is possible for the method of using kan and li.

 

The whole eyes and breath deal is related to the fact that the heart is a yang pole and the lower dantian in a yin pole and your whole body is a yin-yang. The alchemy exercises basically catch the yin and yang resources as they begin to separate and it recombines them so they don't split off and cause life and spiritual clarity to leave you. And there is a point in the training where you absolutely need to use the eyes and there is no other method. It is only early on that variety exists in the methods.

 

Well, except possibly the special seat and clothespin may or may not be necessary---but they are also literal steps at a late point in the training for many schools. 

 

The flying snow is related to the spirit energy of the heart after transmutation has taken place for a number of times in succession.

 

It is a literal manual. 

Okay that's fine repetition of what the author of the book would say, mixed with some mantak chia. But can you explain how you know when to use the eyes and what is the exact inner feeling at that crucial moment? And what is the effect after using the eyes. And you see flying snowflakes? Are they white and fluffy? Where they hexagons or octagons? I'm sorry but the older daoist classics don't mention any of these complicated techniques, not to mention zen, and I'm sure those masters did just fine. Maybe the eyes and wooden balls can help somewhat, but to say you absolutely need them is questionable. especially the word "absolute". I'm sure it is meant to be a literal manual, but perhaps it written poetically. 

Edited by turtlehermit

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5 hours ago, turtlehermit said:

I'm sure it is meant to be a literal manual, but perhaps it written poetically. 

 

Hi turtlehermit,

 

Yes literally - figure of speech as a means of communication. Words have limitations.

 

- LimA

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8 hours ago, turtlehermit said:

Okay that's fine repetition of what the author of the book would say, mixed with some mantak chia. But can you explain how you know when to use the eyes and what is the exact inner feeling at that crucial moment? And what is the effect after using the eyes. And you see flying snowflakes? Are they white and fluffy? Where they hexagons or octagons? I'm sorry but the older daoist classics don't mention any of these complicated techniques, not to mention zen, and I'm sure those masters did just fine. Maybe the eyes and wooden balls can help somewhat, but to say you absolutely need them is questionable. especially the word "absolute". I'm sure it is meant to be a literal manual, but perhaps it written poetically. 

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1 hour ago, joeblast said:

 

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Hi joeblast,

 

Beautiful. More than a thousand words. Thank you.

 

Up for interpretations?

 

- LimA

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

There is some room for variety early on. But, later on, there is only one path with this stuff. Breath and the eyes are used because it only takes place in deep meditation. Any movements that are bigger than eye motions or breath motions would cause you to fall out of the state of meditation. But the mechanisms of raising and lowering (which use the eyes and involve the spirit's ability to move things) are used extensively when the lights of the mysterious gate come into play. At that point, most of the cues will be related to visible light of energy. 

Thanks for the enlightening response, and no offense was meant, my apologies. I'm glad to see some people agree with the poetic interpretations. The only point I'm offering is that sometimes all techniques can be transcended. I assumed the snow was an analogy for the inner light of meditation, and doesn't necessarily have to look like snowflakes. Perhaps the eye movements may help in raising and lowering energy, but as some have said on this forum, thoughts of using techniques like this during meditation means you are not yet empty minded.;) Overall, I think this book has a lot of great things in it, but for me at least, I tend to find the older and simpler neidan methods more effective, which are more focused on the Lower Dantian. Where after sufficient energy is accumulated it circulates naturally, without extraneous eye movements. 

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6 hours ago, turtlehermit said:

The only point I'm offering is that sometimes all techniques can be transcended.

 

Hi turtlehermit,

 

A very good point. For such a complex translated book - Taoist Yoga - 'transcend' is beautiful; especially with poetic turns. 'Transcend' => extend, 'interpret' => contextualise?

 

8 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

The issue about "thoughts of techniques" is another huge and important issue. Because there shouldn't be "thought" accompanying the technique.

 

Hi Apeiron&Peiron,

 

Another very good point. 'Thoughts' - have no presence in wuwei and The Void?

 

- LimA

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9 hours ago, turtlehermit said:

Thanks for the enlightening response, and no offense was meant, my apologies. I'm glad to see some people agree with the poetic interpretations. The only point I'm offering is that sometimes all techniques can be transcended. I assumed the snow was an analogy for the inner light of meditation, and doesn't necessarily have to look like snowflakes. Perhaps the eye movements may help in raising and lowering energy, but as some have said on this forum, thoughts of using techniques like this during meditation means you are not yet empty minded.;) Overall, I think this book has a lot of great things in it, but for me at least, I tend to find the older and simpler neidan methods more effective, which are more focused on the Lower Dantian. Where after sufficient energy is accumulated it circulates naturally, without extraneous eye movements. 

there is no thought of expressing, there is simply energetic expression - perhaps subtle, but very important difference.

 

 

9 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Thanks.

 

Well, actually, the issue about "thoughts of techniques" is another huge and important issue. Because there shouldn't be "thought" accompanying the technique. And that makes it more difficult. My memories of the things that I experience when in the deep meditation state are stored in the deep meditation state. So I only remember it if I have been in it recently or if I made a point to try and transition the experience into normal waking memory. When you go deep, like this technique requires, it is kind of like remembering dreams.

 

But anyways, thoughts have to stop before you get to that state. So the techniques are all done by the direct sense of yin and yang. Many of the techniques will begin and end on their own if you relax into them. But there are a few key points where intent, itself, is an active counterpoint and is needed.

this is why to put in the anapanasati work as prerequisite, so that "the bike does not need to be pedaled" at certain times.

 

how does the hippocampus not fire, yet there's still a memory?  its a tricky question ;)  its definitely something one eases into and then stabilizes.

 

thoughts dont necessarily have to stop, its just that the energy equation gets much more efficient when they have done so. :)

Edited by joeblast
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12 hours ago, turtlehermit said:

Perhaps the eye movements may help in raising and lowering energy, but as some have said on this forum, thoughts of using techniques like this during meditation means you are not yet empty minded.;) 

Eye movements uses part of your working memory (which is why it is used in EMDR), so it diverts your focus. Maybe that is the part of the point with it? 

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5 hours ago, joeblast said:

there is no thought of expressing, there is simply energetic expression - perhaps subtle, but very important difference.

 

Hi joeblast,

 

Another beautiful point - subtle energetic expression. Energies expressing themselves? I am just the observer?

 

5 hours ago, joeblast said:

this is why to put in the anapanasati work as prerequisite, so that "the bike does not need to be pedaled" at certain times.

 

No pedaling needed at certain times because the energies are already there - expressing themselves?

 

5 hours ago, joeblast said:

 

how does the hippocampus not fire, yet there's still a memory?  its a tricky question ;)  its definitely something one eases into and then stabilizes.

 

A good tricky question. But sometimes life is a question without an answer - accept this as part of Nature? An apple knows it has to give apples when the conditions are in good tandem with Nature? Good tandem = ease + stabilization + ... + ...?

 

5 hours ago, joeblast said:

thoughts dont necessarily have to stop, its just that the energy equation gets much more efficient when they have done so. :)

 

Energy equation - as found in Nature? Apple trees can think?

 

4 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

If there are thoughts, they would be imperceptible.

 

Hi Apeiron&Peiron,

 

Imperceptible and/or subtle (re joeblast)?

 

4 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

There is a lot of settling into stillness.

 

Ease => stabilization => stillness => ... => ... ?

 

4 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

... it is like you are shifting dimensions closer to something more void-like.

 

Moving closer to The Void in Nature?

 

4 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

But the transitioning is wuwei all the way.

 

Wuwei = effortlessly?

 

4 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

It will be a profound silence dominated by what the energies are doing.

 

Yes. Energetic SILENCE.

 

2 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Eye movements uses part of your working memory (which is why it is used in EMDR), so it diverts your focus. Maybe that is the part of the point with it? 

 

Hi Mudfoot,

 

Clarity - needs more working of the memory en-route to empty-mindedness?

Ease => stabilization => stillness => clarity => ... ?

 

- LimA

Edited by Limahong
Enhance ...
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23 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi joeblast,

 

Another beautiful point - subtle energetic expression. Energies expressing themselves? I am just the observer?

But the Observer in a Quantum Mechanical experiment cannot be removed from the equation

 

No pedaling needed at certain times because the energies are already there - expressing themselves?

Yes, think of the term Inertia

 

A good tricky question. But sometimes life is a question without an answer - accept this as part of Nature? An apple knows it has to give apples when the conditions are in good tandem with Nature? Good tandem = ease + stabilization + ... + ...?

It wasnt really meant to be but a rhjetorical question, this is borne of practice experience where nearly every last efficiency is realized and the subtle blips of signal become very prominent

 

Energy equation - as found in Nature? Apple trees can think?

Math is nature

Quantum Mechanical rules for combining amplitudes directly correlate to meditative experience

-If events happen in a sequence, multiply the amplitudes (account for phase since its not concurrent)

-If events can be distinguished from one another, square amplitudes then add

-If events cannot be distinguished from one another amplitudes add before squaring

 

so say A=3 and B=4 for something nice and simple...

A*B = asymptote at 12 (since phase difference will detract from theoretical maximum)(when you're learning)

A^2+B^2 = 25 (when you've got the practice down..."things click" and "achieving 12" jumps to 25)

(A+B)^2 = 49 (when the practice is so ingrained that nothing needs to be done and its just an exercise in awareness....regulate until no regulation is necessary....output again jumps...and again its why to extract every last efficiency...)

 

Whether its playing with electrons and spin or harnessing the awareness, there's subtle but deep ties.

:)

Edited by joeblast

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