A sovereign God question

[Jeff]

...

 

But you still have ignored the vital message of what Jesus has said. Regarded by many as the single most important statement in the history of any religion or teaching ever recorded.

 

"NO ONE GETS TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME"

 

:

 

Hi Chegg,

 

Sorry to intrude on your discussion... But, you are definitely implying a point, and I would be interested in your interpretation of the words. I think it could be an interesting discussion into the broader meaning of "being one with God".

 

Best,

Jeff

[Isimsiz Biri]

Well said Isimsiz !

 

But you still have ignored the vital message of what Jesus has said. Regarded by many as the single most important statement in the history of any religion or teaching ever recorded.

 

"NO ONE GETS TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME"

 

What does it mean Isimsiz ?

 

At least try and answer the question this time. I need..................Answers !

 

 

 

 

Bless you with answering a question

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

1. We do not know whether this verse really belongs to Prophet Jesus Christ or not. It may be or may not be. This is the real bottleneck of Christianity as the original Gospel given to Prophet Jesus Christ is not known by humanity. This is a general warning about all Gospel related discussions.

 

 

2. So you say that this verse really belongs to Jesus Christ. Where did you read it?

 

In "Holy" Bible, John 14:6 isn't it? (http://biblehub.com/john/14-6.htm)

 

Do you observe the very same verse in other Canonical Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke)? As far as I see, no? Why did other canonical gospels not have that verse? What about Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas? What is the reason that they do not contain this verse?

 

So how can we trust this verse?

 

 

3. Let us assume that this verse is an original, unchanged verse. OK. In which language do you find this verse in the original form? Ancient Greek isn't it?

 

Did Prophet Jesus Christ speak Greek? No!

What is the language of original Gospel? Either ancient Jewish or ancient Aramic.

So the oldest Gospel of John we have today is a Greek TRANSLATION of original?

 

Is the translation correct?

 

What we will do in case the original wording thus meaning of verse is different?

 

 

 

 

I am sorry Chegg. There are too many "What will happen" questions here.

 

Today, for Holy Quran verses, if you pay attention, we are giving 5 or 6 available English translations in order to fully understand that verse. Arabic to English translations and still there are discussions about Holy Quran verses.

 

I simply refuse to make any speculations of this verse unless I ask to Jesus Christ myself whether this is the original verse or not.

 

This is really serious business and there is no place for any errors.

So before yelling at me for answers, prove that this verse is original.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[3bob]

_{Chegg, Do you think the oversized (flame) letters are needed? (Imo maybe once in a great while...although throwing flame at gasoline seldom clears the air)}

 

_{Btw, how is it Enoch walked with God (or whatever the verse says) if he did not go through Jesus?}

 

_{Btw, how is it that Satan had a conversation with God about the ground rules for tormenting Job if he didn't go through Jesus?}

 

_{Btw, was it ever possible that Jesus could fail or fall? If not then his temptations were not real on the other hand if his temptations were real then the Jesus before being "crucified" was not the same Jesus as after being crucified, thus I see a certain problem in quoting the words of a Jesus before that event (and even in him saying it) - for if he had failed then the Bible verse you are hammering on would have to have been thrown out the window or would have never come into existence.}

 

_{Etc., etc...}

[silent thunder]

 

1. We do not know whether this verse really belongs to Prophet Jesus Christ or not. It may be or may not be. This is the real bottleneck of Christianity as the original Gospel given to Prophet Jesus Christ is not known by humanity. This is a general warning about all Gospel related discussions.

 

 

2. So you say that this verse really belongs to Jesus Christ. Where did you read it?

 

In "Holy" Bible, John 14:6 isn't it? (http://biblehub.com/john/14-6.htm)

 

Do you observe the very same verse in other Canonical Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke)? As far as I see, no? Why did other canonical gospels not have that verse? What about Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas? What is the reason that they do not contain this verse?

 

So how can we trust this verse?

 

 

3. Let us assume that this verse is an original, unchanged verse. OK. In which language do you find this verse in the original form? Ancient Greek isn't it?

 

Did Prophet Jesus Christ speak Greek? No!

What is the language of original Gospel? Either ancient Jewish or ancient Aramic.

So the oldest Gospel of John we have today is a Greek TRANSLATION of original?

 

Is the translation correct?

 

What we will do in case the original wording thus meaning of verse is different?

 

 

 

 

I am sorry Chegg. There are too many "What will happen" questions here.

 

Today, for Holy Quran verses, if you pay attention, we are giving 5 or 6 available English translations in order to fully understand that verse. Arabic to English translations and still there are discussions about Holy Quran verses.

 

I simply refuse to make any speculations of this verse unless I ask to Jesus Christ myself whether this is the original verse or not.

 

This is really serious business and there is no place for any errors.

So before yelling at me for answers, prove that this verse is original.

There are no original verses.

Everything is a translation.

And it's humans doing the writing...

[Isimsiz Biri]

There are no original verses.

Everything is a translation.

And it's humans doing the writing...

 

It is your opinion and it is totally wrong. Do not interrupt our conversation with Chegg.

[silent thunder]

Easy chief... public forum, I'll speak when I choose.

Translations of translations, all done by humans.

Including the 'originals'.

It is your opinion and it is totally wrong. Do not interrupt our conversation with Chegg.

[chegg]

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Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

 

 

Excellent questions 3bob and Isimsiz !

 

That is what I like to hear. The only way we can ever hope to arrive closer to the 'truth' is by pitting two or more views against each other and then attempt to resolve any conflicting statements. Isimsiz is the perfect companion for such discussion as he has a strong point of view and so is anyone else who feels strongly about their beliefs.

 

So I will keep going. Analyze, Analyse, Comment ! Comment !

 

So there is a possibility that Jesus was misquoted on "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

 

But he also said "I am the Door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." (John 10:9)

 

and also said "I am" not "I only was before " or I will be later" implying he always existed and just so decided to present himself into this world ~2000 years ago.

 

 

Here are some more quotes to consider from the Bible's view - Could all these be misquoted as well ?

 

John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

John 10:9: "I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

 

 

 

Ok, no more OVERSIZED words

 

 

Blessings at arriving at the "truth"

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

There is no reply to my points. Actually, if you try to answer them, you will have to accept that full circle is Islam. So you avoid them.

[chegg]

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Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[3bob]

Mr. Biri, you seldom give points for conversation since most of what you say are dismissals of other people based on your opinions (which btw. are a dime a dozen) and until you realize that there is little or no point in trying to deal with your tendency towards fanatical one-up-man-ship.

 

Chegg, the speculation and correlation game has it limits, I hope you already know that? (which it seems you do) Godspeed in your studies.

 

Om

[Jeff]

Hi Chegg,

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You touch on some interesting points that I would like to learn a little more about your perspective on...

 

 

The only way I can interpret those words is that Jesus was not just a direct representation of the word of God, but he was the word (logos) in human form. The word is eternal (as he said "I am"). He was God to the extent that he can be present to man and knowable to man. God and the Logos are not two beings, and yet they are also not simply identical. ... The Logos is God active in creation, revelation, and redemption (as he said "I am the way, the truth and the life").

 

I do not disagree that a Christ is "one with God". Is there only one such manifestation? Given above, what is your definition of the "Holy Spirit"? Also, what is "Sophia" as described in the bible?

 

 

Anyway, from a super-conscious point of view, after humans died (before the appearence of Jesus), their etheric double tended to move towards the sun. After Jesus' appearence, his death, and ressurection, the etheric double now moves towards Christ (now a gateway to the father). The more rarefied elements of the human individual can now continue on and exist in these higher realms and at one-ment with God. This, still, is a simplistic view as it doesnt take into account that the soul needs develop through a series of incarnations before it gets to go back to God.

:

 

How did you develop the view that previous to Jesus souls/etheric double went to the sun? Why would that be the case?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

[chegg]

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Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[chegg]

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Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[Isimsiz Biri]

Chegg,

 

You may quote all of the Holy Bible, this does not reply my questions.

 

1. All the Gospels of Christianity has been written many years after Prophet Jesus Christ. Many verses are man made.

 

2. There are serious inconsistencies between four canonical Gospels.

 

3. There is a serious translation error problem as the oldest available Gospels are in Greek language. Many of the verses are distorted due to translation from Jewish or Aramic to Greek. Jewish and Aramic are Semite languages where as Greek is Indo European language. Translation from one language to another is very difficult if they belong to different language families. There will be many errors even in the best translation. Since the original texts are not present today, there is no solution for this too.

 

Christianity is sitting on a foundation which is not good enough to carry this huge load.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[chegg]

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Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[The Prisoner]

I am friend with God.

 

We got different words for different power.

 

God is in Satan.

 

You cant go around and change the meaning words who are set.

I see God as a word we have to describe: the good, (life, love, change and intension.)

The Hebrew word "God" is a verb, not a subject. So it describes action, not a person.

 

God is nature, universe

 

Shen: Is to connect heaven, man, earth. As you are not the 1.spirit.

 

I have no mind but still, I am alive, walking on impulse,

 

action needs Intension, so who is it??

 

As the elder woman in Syria said. All is ruins, just God is left. I understand why she said it that way.

 

Peace with God, and Jesus helps your meditation, increases De (Tè). And decreases tension; (Red dragon - will.)

 

I am not religious or interested in sermons

 

but I walk with God, more correctly: In God.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Hiya Isimsiz !

 

You make a good point but it is totally unverifiable as to what may have been distorted in the gospels (if anything was distorted at all). So that argument could go on forever (and it does on many forums)

 

It does seem rather peculiar though that Jesus came back from the dead and even predicted it so. Stuff like that makes for interesting investigation whether one is a Christian or not. How would you explain it. There is not just one statement of claim on miracles and who Jesus claimed himself to be in the Christian bible - there are many - you dont need to read far before you come across them.

 

Blessings of Understanding

:wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Chegg,

 

You are not answering but asking new questions. If you are a politician, I am sure you are successful.

 

If you have the chance to talk to Prophet Jesus Christ, he will tell you to obey the last Prophet, Prophet Muhammad. Then, you will also obey Jesus Christ too.

 

Do not misunderstand me. There are some original, unaltered verses in Gospels too. But it is practically impossible for a normal decent person to distinguish them from the altered ones.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

I am friend with God.

 

We got different words for different power.

 

God is in Satan.

 

You cant go around and change the meaning words who are set.

 

I see God as a word we have to describe: the good, (life, love, change and intension.)

The Hebrew word "God" is a verb, not a subject. So it describes action, not a person.

 

God is nature, universe

 

Shen: Is to connect heaven, man, earth. As you are not the 1.spirit.

 

I have no mind but still, I am alive, walking on impulse,

 

action needs Intension, so who is it??

 

As the elder woman in Syria said. All is ruins, just God is left. I understand why she said it that way.

 

Peace with God, and Jesus helps your meditation, increases De (Tè). And decreases tension; (Red dragon - will.)

 

I am not religious or interested in sermons

 

but I walk with God, more correctly: In God.

 

Good luck

[Jeff]

Hi Chegg,

 

Some comments on my perspective below...

 

It would appear that we are all manifestations of Christ. We were born from it, through it and have it within us but we do not express it (or express it only a little). The difference with Jesus (from what I have read) is that he came from the source as a direct embodiment of the word of God which, by the way, is not the way the rest of us come into being. He is the Christ Logos (in Human form). Having a human form, I would speculate, would make him subject to the same human tendancies, thoughts, desires and emotions that the majority of humanity would have. However, he overcame those (relatively quickly) and by doing so, also set an example of the purification process by which one could attain perfection ("be ye perfect as your father", etc).

To put it in perspective, Jesus did it in less than one life-time. Humans have been meandering on earth for millions of years and they havent really developed or done much at all.

 

So essentially you are saying that we are all manifestations of Christ, but that Jesus was sort of a previously realized being that took human/manifest form to teach us to also be children of God (or that we are all Christ like). Similar to what is described in John...

 

John 1:9-14 (KJV)

 

⁹ That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ¹⁰ He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. ¹¹ He came unto his own, and his own received him not. ¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: ¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ¹⁴ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

 

 

I have not studied much behind the idea of Sophia (yet). "Pistis Sophia" by the Gnostics also comes to mind. (The old secret knowledge or 'wisdom in faith'). I guess its referring to knowledge given to an individual through heightened awarenss/supersensible/superconsciousnes - stuff coming from the higher realms by the holy spirit perhaps ?

 

The Pistis Sophia is very interesting, but I think it is beyond the current scope of our discussion. Regarding "Sophia" and how it may fit into your perspective, I would lead you to Proverbs 8. Sophia describes itself below...

 

 

²⁰ I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: ²¹ That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. ²² The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

 

²³ I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.²⁴ When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. ²⁵ Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: ²⁶ While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. ²⁷ When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: ²⁸ When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: ²⁹ When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: ³⁰ Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; ³¹ Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

 

³² Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. ³³ Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. ³⁴ Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. ³⁵ For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord. ³⁶ But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Notice that Sophia (or the noble wisdoms) have existed before the world and made of the "everlasting".

 

Now, the Holy Spirit, among other things, would be what builds, heals and maintains our bodies (which is seen and understood through the laws of science and other super-natural phenomena). It can be crudely described as the conscious or dynamic part of the universe(s) and is the third aspect of GOD ie. it is GOD. The Holy Spirit and it's co-workers -- the Archangels -- also work with God in the physical body and related worlds, to engender the manifestation of life.

 

On the Holy Spirit, I would agree that it relates to the manifestation of life, but I would say that the Holy Spirit is much more and would somewhat cut into your Logos definition. I offer these words from the bible on the Holy Spirit...

 

 

Romans 8:6-17

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

 

'moving towards the sun' ? I will speculate:

An easy way to explain that phenomenon is this. Lets say, 2100 Years ago, you die. All that is left is of you is the spirit of your former self which is now floating around the etheric counterpart of the earth. You probably haven't developed you're spiritual self to any great extent.Thoughts and desires are what's driving you. There is no more physical body that anchors you to your locality anymore. So, if you remember a hot chick, you would head towards that woman. If you remember the Sun God Ra, you would probably head towards the Sun. If you are undeveloped as a human being, you would probably withdraw back to your soul and then the soul would incarnate again. Being born in years A.D. though, you might remember Jesus Christ and thus, you could be on your way back to God ?

 

Which reminds me of a woman who felt as though she was quite developed and would always say "this is my last time here on earth". Later she was told quite abruptly in no uncertain terms "No, it is not". I guess it is the spirit that decides some things about what happens, not the lower personality?

 

On your previously moving towards the sun... I don't understand your logic on this one. Christ has always existed. Jesus is "beyond" time. I would agree that Jesus brought a "higher realization" into the world, but the as the bible says, he is not the only one who is "possessor (realized) heaven and earth". Some words from Genesis for your consideration on the point...

 

Genesis 14:18-20 (KJV)

 

¹⁸ And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. ¹⁹ And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: ²⁰ And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

 

Finally, who is this Melchizedek guy and why according to the Letter to the Hebrews, Jesus is identified as a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek, and so Jesus assumes the role of High Priest.

 

Hopefully some words for your consideration.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[chegg]

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Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

 

Hiya Isimsiz !!!

 

Sometimes you can make a point by asking questions. Why don't you give it a try ?

 

By the way, Jesus has already said to follow him, not anyone else on this earth (it has already been documented in the bible). So from these documented works, there is no need to follow anyone else. It is also mentioned in the new testament to be wary of those who try and distort the teachings of the gospels - i.e., by telling others, in the name of Jesus, to follow someone else's teachings - according to the bible that is a very, very bad thing to do....very bad. I hope you are not trying to do that ?

 

I do not misunderstand you from what you have written. If you mean something else to what you have written, then I suggest you re-write it to reflect what ideas you intend to convey.

 

 

Blessings of no Distortions !

 

:wub: :wub: :wub:

 

1. Prophet Jesus Christ already informed people about Prophet Muhammad who would live after him. Your canonical Gospels do not have this verse since they were changed.

 

2. The Christians made an enormous insult to Prophet Jesus Christ by declaring him as God's son. God is Creator not father.

 

3. Christians also established monasticism which is not God's order

 

I think that is enough. Your Christianity has very few common elements with Jesus Christs' teachings.

[Nungali]

. God is Creator not father.

 

.

Yet in another thread you said Mohammad was creator ????

There are 18.000 Realms, that had been created by prayer of Prophet Muhammad.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Nungali

[chegg]

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Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[chegg]

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Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[3bob]

Islam is an enormous insult to Jesus in trying to somehow co-opt his spiritual validity as if He had anything to do with it which he doesn't.