A sovereign God question

[Isimsiz Biri]

Ok Mr. Biri,

 

I feel this is a Taoist forum at heart that allows all sorts of goings on out of tolerance for same, something which you who sounds like a fanatical variation of Islam does not seem to understand.... Btw, any true saint of any religion has gone beyond religion and does not need to or want to force their chosen path, vision or doctrine upon anyone else, since doing so would be a "sin". Also neither you, me nor anyone else is definitely aware of what someone else will be, not be, or think... Thus I suggest the dropping your fanaticism or at least keep it to yourself and your like minded associates.

 

Om

 

 

3bob,

 

My name is Isimsiz Biri. If it is difficult for you to copy and paste, do not write a reply.

 

I reject your statement that I am a fanatic. In fact, you are the one who is the text book example of fanatic as you want everybody to think like you. If anybody is different than you, then you label him as fanatic. How nice, isn't it?

 

Wa alaykumu s-salam

[3bob]

ok Mr. Isimsiz Biri.

 

Reject all you want but you are the one proclaiming that one of our members (and I assume all other members have not yet realized they are Musilms but would do so "immediately" under the conditions you've laid out. That is an obvious aspect of being a fanatic so I suggest you paly back your own words and listen if you can?

 

Islam may have a few non-fanatics and even saints but imo they are hard to come by since most of the orthodox aspects of the religion are engaged in a type of ugly, violent and horrific spiritual genocide of millions of people. (more so against women!)

[Isimsiz Biri]

ok Mr. Isimsiz Biri.

 

Reject all you want but you are the one proclaiming that one of our members (and I assume all other members have not yet realized they are Musilms but would do so "immediately" under the conditions you've laid out. That is an obvious aspect of being a fanatic so I suggest you paly back your own words and listen if you can?

 

Islam may have a few non-fanatics and even saints but imo they are hard to come by since most of the orthodox aspects of the religion are engaged in a type of ugly, violent and horrific spiritual genocide of millions of people. (more so against women!)

 

I can easily prove that Christianity suits your definition much better than Islam. Actually, I did it many times in this forum.

 

But you are not even worth to reply. Take your insults with you and go somewhere else.

[3bob]

Mr. Isimsiz Biri

Islam in some ways like Christianity has lots of twisted up skeletons in its closet which you can not deny in any way, shape or form if you are at all rational. (or even border line rational) Btw, I'm the op here so you can go somewhere else such as to a website that panders to fanatics or violent types who spout off and act like they are "holier than thou".

 

Btw #2, my name here is 3bob since it appears you are having trouble following your own advice or standards.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Mr. Isimsiz Biri

Islam in some ways like Christianity has lots of twisted up skeletons in its closet which you can not deny in any way, shape or form if you are at all rational. (or even border line rational) Btw, I'm the op here so you can go somewhere else such as to a website that panders to fanatics or violent types who spout off and act like they are "holier than thou".

 

Btw #2, my name here is 3bob since it appears you are having trouble following your own advice or standards.

 

I never wrote your name incorrect.

 

You did not understand my post to deci belle at all. All you do is to spit your hatred. Nothing else. If hatred is ok for you, continue like this.

[3bob]

Since we are now on no-name terms or the omission of names (as you are now proceeding then such is no big deal to me although you made a dubious big deal of names early on so now I hear you as being self-contradictory along that line) I don't spit unless I'm choking or being choked. As for you seeing evidence of spit that is in the eye of the beholder, yourself; all I've done is pointed out quotable words or sentences from you and also commented on the long, dark and violent aspects of past and present day Islam and or alluded to certain Muslim people who use Islam for corrupted purposes. (which does not mean all Islam or all Muslim people are corrupted in that way) If you can't accept such as historical fact as has often been recorded with eyes wide open 1st hand accounts by both Muslims and non-Muslims then that is your problem...

[Isimsiz Biri]

Since we are now on no-name terms or the omission of names (as you are now proceeding then such is no big deal to me although you made a dubious big deal of names early on so now I hear you as being self-contradictory along that line) I don't spit unless I'm choking or being choked. As for you seeing evidence of spit that is in the eye of the beholder, yourself; all I've done is pointed out quotable words or sentences from you and also commented on the long, dark and violent aspects of past and present day Islam and or alluded to certain Muslim people who use Islam for corrupted purposes. (which does not mean all Islam or all Muslim people are corrupted in that way) If you can't accept such as historical fact as has often been recorded with eyes wide open 1st hand accounts by both Muslims and non-Muslims then that is your problem...

 

 

Name one example of that historical fact and let us all hear it. Historical fact Muslim people who use Islam for corrupted purposes?

 

Al-Qaeda which has been found and supported by CIA?

 

Wahhabi Saudi Arabia operating like a Muslim 51st state of USA?

 

Give one example. Let us see what you know.

 

These crusaders really make me sick.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Brian]

How about the public beheadings of dissenters which were posted on YouTube? That's pretty recent, though-- are you thinking of older stuff?

[Isimsiz Biri]

How about the public beheadings of dissenters which were posted on YouTube? That's pretty recent, though-- are you thinking of older stuff?

 

Brian, as I always said, there are evil Muslims, evil Christians, evil Jews, evil Buddhists, evil Shintoists, evil Daoists, evil Atheists.

 

This is not 3bob's problem. He thinks he is a crusader just like George W. Bush. Let us see what is his problem? Let us see the historical fact. What is his point?

[Brian]

Would the example I present NOT be a case of "Muslim people who use Islam for corrupted purposes?" That was what you requested.

 

Would you prefer examples from long ago?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Would the example I present NOT be a case of "Muslim people who use Islam for corrupted purposes?" That was what you requested. Would you prefer examples from long ago?

 

Brian, nobody says Christian people using Christianity for corrupted purposes.

 

Nobody says Buddhists using Buddhism for corrupted purposes.

 

But when it is Islam, ooooo! Suddenly, Muslims using Islam for corrupted purposes. As if Muslims are not human beings but angels.

 

The motive behind is the belief that Islam is enemy. Typical Crusader thinking.

 

As you see, all animals are equal but pigs are more equal.

 

I have seen it before in this forum. Many times.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Brian]

You miss the point. YOU basically said that all cases of Muslim bad behavior are disassociated from Islam and, to make your case, challenged the presentation of a single example. I presented one.

 

I made no claim of Christian or Buddhist perfection...

[Isimsiz Biri]

You miss the point. YOU basically said that all cases of Muslim bad behavior are disassociated from Islam and, to make your case, challenged the presentation of a single example. I presented one. I made no claim of Christian or Buddhist perfection...

 

Brian,

 

I am really tired of your logic games. I am not in a good mood. Find somebody else to enjoy.

[chegg]

I posted this especially for those who get stuck....those In our society today that we see quarreling fanatically over issues......

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32848-for-psychotherapists-creating-elementals-to-help-humanity/

 

 

 

Blessings of love and understanding :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Edit:

 

The 16th paragraph was the one relevant to arguments (sorry for the lengthy article)

Edited December 9, 2013 by chegg

[Isimsiz Biri]

Name one example of that historical fact and let us all hear it. Historical fact Muslim people who use Islam for corrupted purposes?

 

Al-Qaeda which has been found and supported by CIA?

 

Wahhabi Saudi Arabia operating like a Muslim 51st state of USA?

 

Give one example. Let us see what you know.

 

These crusaders really make me sick.

 

I am still waiting for 3bob's answer, i.e. the historical facts about Muslim people who use Islam for corrupted purposes.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[3bob]

Freedom at Midnight (1975) is a book by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre.

 

(examples in that book, although not only by Muslims who by the way are not exempt from falling into lower human nature)

[Isimsiz Biri]

Freedom at Midnight (1975) is a book by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre.

 

(examples in that book, although not only by Muslims who by the way are not exempt from falling into lower human nature)

 

This is absurd. You can not post any examples? Let me do it for you.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_at_Midnight

Freedom at Midnight (1975) is a book by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre. It describes the events in the Indian independence movement in 1947-48, beginning with the appointment of Lord Mountbatten of Burma as the last viceroy of British India, and ending with the death and funeral of Mahatma Gandhi.

The authors having interviewed many of those who were there, including Lord Mountbatten of Burma, the book gives a detailed account of the last year of British India, the princely states' reactions to independence (including descriptions of the Indian princes' colorful and extravagant lifestyles), the partition of India and Pakistan on religious grounds, and the bloodshed that followed. It also covers in detail the events leading to the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi, as well as the life and motives of British-educated Jawaharlal Nehru and Pakistani leader Muhammad Ali Jinnah. The book is a result of deeply scanned and researched events, which often are left out by other historians. For example, the crucial maps setting the boundary separating India and Pakistan were drawn that year by Cyril Radcliffe. Radcliffe had never visited India in his life before being appointed as the chairman of the Boundary Commission. The description of the very British-style summertime capital Shimla in the Himalayas and how supplies were carried up steep mountains by porters each year is interesting. The book also explains the fury of both Hindus and Muslims, misled by their communal leaders, during the partition, and the biggest mass slaughter in the history of India as millions of unfortunate people were uprooted by the partition and tried to migrate laboriously by train, oxcart, and on foot to new places designated for their particular religious group. Many migrants fell victim to bandits and bloodthirsty religious extremists of both dominant religions. One incident quoted is particularly terrifying: it describes a canal in Lahore that ran with blood and floating bodies. A tragedy that befell a poor but sincere interfaith peasant couple is heart-rending. The final pages of the book witnesses the events that led to the tragic end of Mahatma Gandhi. The plan of the slaughter of The 'Father of the Nation' by Nathuram Ghodse.

Controversial for its portrayal of the British expatriates, the native rulers of India and members of India's first cabinet, it is a non-fiction book told in a casual style, similar to the authors' previous Is Paris Burning? and O Jerusalem!.

Collins and Lapierre also wrote a book about their research with respect to Mountbatten, titled Mountbatten and the Partition of India. This book contains interviews with Mountbatten, and a selection of papers that were in his possession.

 

First of all, this book explains the 20th century history of India and Pakistan. It states the the foundation of two states which even today have tension. If this is your famous historical fact, I think you should really learn history. The conflict between Hindus and Muslims and both sides killing each other are based not only religious but social and economic reasons. Today, in India there is a Muslim minority living in peace with Hindus except Kashmir conflict between India and Pakistan. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_conflict)

 

I was expecting you to give some examples of religious conflicts only. Let me give you some examples from history of Christianity:

 

For instance, what about Crusades? Have you ever heard about them? Oh come on, I know you love them. I posted many times here in 1099 AD, during the First Crusade, Crusaders killed everybody in Jerusalem, women, children, Muslim, Jew, Christian every body, even cats and dogs.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(1099)

Massacre[edit] in Jerusalem

Muslims[edit]

Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, and the Temple Mount area generally. According to the Gesta Francorum, speaking only of the Temple Mount area, "...[our men] were killing and slaying even to the Temple of Solomon, where the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..." According to Raymond of Aguilers, also writing solely of the Temple Mount area, " in the Temple and porch of Solomon men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins." However, this imagery should not be taken literally; it was taken directly from biblical passage Revelation 14:20.[12] Writing about the Temple Mount area alone Fulcher of Chartres, who was not an eyewitness to the Jerusalem siege because he had stayed with Baldwin in Edessa at the time, says: "In this temple 10,000 were killed. Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared".[13]

The eyewitness Gesta Francorum states that some people were spared. Its anonymous author wrote, "When the pagans had been overcome, our men seized great numbers, both men and women, either killing them or keeping them captive, as they wished."[14] Later the same source writes, "[Our leaders] also ordered all the Saracen dead to be cast outside because of the great stench, since the whole city was filled with their corpses; and so the living Saracens dragged the dead before the exits of the gates and arranged them in heaps, as if they were houses. No one ever saw or heard of such slaughter of pagan people, for funeral pyres were formed from them like pyramids, and no one knows their number except God alone. But Raymond caused the Emir and the others who were with him to be conducted to Ascalon, whole and unhurt."[15]

Another eyewitness source, Raymond of Aguilers, reports that some Muslims survived. After recounting the slaughter on the Temple Mount he reports of some who "took refuge in the Tower of David, and, petitioning Count Raymond for protection, surrendered the Tower into his hands." [16] These Muslims left with the Fatimid governor for Ascalon.[17] A version of this tradition is also known to the later Muslim historian Ibn al-Athir (10, 193–95), who recounts that after the city was taken and pillaged: "A band of Muslims barricaded themselves into the Oratory of David (Mihrab Dawud) and fought on for several days. They were granted their lives in return for surrendering. The Franks honoured their word, and the group left by night for Ascalon."[18] One Cairo Geniza letter also refers to some Jewish residents who left with the Fatimid governor.[19]

Tancred claimed the Temple quarter for himself and offered protection to some of the Muslims there, but he was unable to prevent their deaths at the hands of his fellow Crusaders.

Although the Crusaders killed many of the Muslim and Jewish residents, eyewitness accounts (Gesta Francorum, Raymond of Aguilers, and the Cairo Geniza documents) demonstrate that some Muslim and Jewish residents were allowed to live, as long as they left Jerusalem.[20]

 

 

Did you ever hear in your life about the Thirty Years' Wars?

 

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_years_war)

The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648) was a series of wars principally fought in Central Europe, involving most of the countries of Europe.[10] It was one of the longest and most destructive conflicts in European history, and one of the longest continuous wars in modern history.

Initially, religion was a motivation for war as Protestant and Catholic states battled it out even though they all were inside the Holy Roman Empire. Changing the relative balance of power within the Empire was at issue. Gradually, it developed into a more general conflict involving most of the great powers of Europe.[11] In this general phase the war became less specifically religious and more a continuation of the Bourbon–Habsburg rivalry for European political pre-eminence, leading in turn to further warfare between France and the Habsburg powers.[12]

The Catholics and Protestants killed each other for Thirty Years. How nice isn't it? In the name of religion and Jesus Christ.

Let us look the humanity of Belgians. They are Christians, right? Oh, no, not in Middle Age. Just between 1885 - 1908, just 128 to 105 years ago from today, under Belgian King Leopold II, Congo Free State in Africa.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo#Belgian_colonization)

The Congo Free State was a corporate state privately controlled by Leopold II of Belgium through the Association Internationale African, a non-governmental organization. Leopold was the sole shareholder and chairman. The state included the entire area of the present Democratic Republic of the Congo. Under Leopold II's administration, the Congo Free State became the site of one of the most infamous international scandals of the turn of the twentieth century. The report of the British Consul Roger Casement led to the arrest and punishment of white officials who had been responsible for cold-blooded killings during a rubber-collecting expedition in 1903, including one Belgian national for causing the shooting of at least 122 Congolese natives. Estimates of the total death toll vary considerably. In the absence of a census, the first was made in 1924, it is even more difficult to quantify the population loss of the period. Roger Casement's famous 1904 report estimated ten million people. According to Casement's report, indiscriminate "war", starvation, reduction of births and tropical diseases caused the country's depopulation.[3] The European and U.S. press agencies exposed the conditions in the Congo Free State to the public in 1900. By 1908 public and diplomatic pressure led Leopold II to annex the Congo as the Belgian Congo colony.

Do you want to see what did these Christian Belgians do to children and wives of fathers and husbands who could not collect enough rubber? They just cut one hand off! How compassionate isn't it?

Congolese children and wives whose fathers/husbands failed to meet rubber-collection quotas often had their hands cut off.

 

3bob,

 

First learn history. Second learn how Christians distributed their love to other people. Then, come and talk about Muslims and Islam.

 

NOW, GO AWAY!

Edited December 13, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Brian]

Would you like for me to provide a few examples?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Would you like for me to provide a few examples?

 

Brian, I am sick of this attitude of yours. Post whatever you like, for your every example, I will post three. You are trying to help Nungali. You are trying to help RongzomFan. You are trying to help 3bob.

 

For one time, be a man and challenge me YOURSELF. With your own ideas.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Brian]

Wait, if you are going to post the examples of Muslims behaving badly in the name of Islam, as you challenged 3bob to do, why should I bother?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Wait, if you are going to post the examples of Muslims behaving badly in the name of Islam, as you challenged 3bob to do, why should I bother?

 

I said I will post three examples from Christianity to your each example from Islam. I know, with your limited knowledge of history, it is not so easy for you. Try it. Make my day.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[3bob]

No need to post long samples of what you can read for yourself via the basic information or linkable information.

Btw, if you have not read the book I recommend it over the little sample.

 

No need to count tit for tat if Christains have sinned more times or more seriously than Muslims since both peoples at various times and places in history (recent and long ago) have gone a very long ways down such roads and only "God" is a true judge of such counting.

 

No need to act like a nut-case either, I suggest acting at least like a rational man.

Edited December 13, 2013 by 3bob

[xor]

Why talk what good or bad Christians and Muslims have done here anyway? I don't think this has anything to do with hermetics which is more of a personal endeavour.

[Isimsiz Biri]

No need to post long samples of what you can read for yourself via the basic information or linkable information.

Btw, if you have not read the book I recommend it over the little sample.

 

No need to count tit for tat if Christains have sinned more times or more seriously than Muslims since both peoples at various times and places in history (recent and long ago) have gone a very long ways down such roads and only "God" is a true judge of such counting.

 

No need to act like a nut-case either, I suggest acting at least like a rational man.

I will not let any Westerner to insult my religion. Be careful about your sentences.

[3bob]

Be careful about not being rational regardless of west, east, south or north.