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ChiDragon

Chi Kung - The Ultimate Method of Breathing

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This is simply wrong.

氣沈丹田 is a very basic nei gong technique that is used to develop skill in using the yi (mind of intent) to guide the qi to dan tian.

I would urge anyone interested in Daoist methods to find a more accurate source of information.

 

Steve.....

I am getting to a point that I cannot say who is right or wrong. You see, the character 氣(chi) is very universal but its definition is not unique. From a different point of view and depends on how it was used it has multi-definition. In the past history, the native people call most of the stuff "chi", but only in their minds know what it meant. When it translate into English, we have to find a word for it which may or maybe not fit the description of which was intended to be meant. Let's take our cases, your chi was intended to be meant "energy" or something else in your mind. I don't know. In my case, when I am talking about breathing, chi can be meant "air" or "to breathe" depends on context.

 

If I apply your definition to my scenario, then I would have to say that my "yi" is guiding my breath(氣) to the dan tian. However, I know darn well that I am not breathing energy(氣) into my lung but air(氣). Do you see the dilemma here which play tricks on us all this time.....???

 

 

Edited by ChiDragon

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Steve.....

I am getting to a point that I cannot say who is right or wrong. You see, the character 氣(chi) is very universal but its definition is not unique. From a different point of view and depends on how it was used it has multi-definition. In the past history, the native people call most of the stuff "chi", but only in their minds know what it meant. When it translate into English, we have to find a word for it which may or maybe not fit the description of which was intended to be meant. Let's take our cases, your chi was intended to be meant "energy" or something else in your mind. I don't know. In my case, when I am talking about breathing, chi can be meant "air" or "to breathe" depends on context.

 

If I apply your definition to my scenario, then I would have to say that my "yi" is guiding my breath(氣) to the dan tian. However, I know darn well that I am not breathing energy(氣) into my lung but air(氣). Do you see the dilemma here which play tricks on us all this time.....???

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with translating the character 氣 and it has nothing to do with guessing at what is pointed at in books.

It has to do with getting personal instruction with a lineage holder in Daoist arts and internal Chinese martial art training.

The real Daoist methods are transmitted orally by direct instruction, they are not communicated clearly in books, by design. Once you have received proper instruction and spent time developing some personal experience and skill in the methods, then the writings become transparent and it is clear what is being pointed at.

 

What you are describing is not using the Yi to guide the Qi. That is done in a very specific manner and is not dependent on the breathing process at all. It is often combined with the breathing process but not necessarily, and the two are not interchangeable. What you are doing is using visualization to breathe deeply into the Dan Tian, it is not the same as what Qi Chen Dan Tian refers to in martial arts practice. As a matter of fact, reverse abdominal breathing is often used when practicing the technique 氣沈丹田 by martial artists.

 

Your other comment:

"Why martial arts practitioners want to have the condition of "氣沈丹田(sink Chi to dan tian)".....??? It is because that is the best time which allows the body to generated the maximum physical strength possible."

...is equally erroneous. Certainly proper breathing is valuable in generating physical strength. 氣沈丹田 is used as a very basic foundation practice to provide the basis for developing internal strength.

 

Concerning Qi, when you breath air, 氣, you are also always breathing energy. If you want to look at it from the scientific paradigm (which I know you prefer), you must look at every molecule and atom of air (nitrogen, oxygen, and everything else). Why do we breath? To absorb energy for living. Air contains that energy. Each of these atoms and molecules contains enormous amounts of energy. It may be a stretch for you to accept this (and I'm not asking you to) but even the space between the molecules is imbued with energy. Energy is related to the very act of your awareness interacting with the environment. The Daoists actually have a different character for energy which is contained in air (and food, and water, and everything else that is Zi Ran) - that character is 炁. It's only found in some old Daoist texts, charms, and ceremonial writings. It's now an archaic character that is no longer in active usage other than by Daoist mystics. It clearly points to that aspect of energy that is other than simply air or the process of breathing.

 

And please do not attribute this definition to me, it is the way my teacher's lineage has passed down this information for a very long time. It is not my interpretation of writings in a book. It is a result of direct, personal instruction from a lineage holder who was born and trained in Taiwan.

 

I offer this information up mainly to alert less experienced folks on the forum that the information you are presenting here is inaccurate and based solely on your own (mis)interpretation of what you read in books, not based on a traditional Daoist lineage instruction.

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"氣沈丹田", Sink Chi to dan tian. What is the initial meaning of the phrase exactly....???

 

Before I go in to deep breathing, I must confine myself to some definition for consistency without inducing any other ideas to avoid confusing the issue. Please keep these definitions in mind within limits as defined for the validity of this thread. Therefore, please hold your arguments, this is strictly for the most basic fundamental conceptual explanation about Chi Kung.

 

1. Normal breathing is without any restriction to any special procedure but excluding the abdominal breathing.

2. The ultimate method of breathing(UMB) is inhale with the abdomen is fully expanded; and exhale with the abdomen is fully contracted.

3. Dan tian(丹田): In this thread, it was defined as the abdominal area below the navel.

 

The phrase "氣沈丹田(sink Chi to dan tian)" is mentioned most often by all martial artists. It is because they know the importance of breathing. So, where and when does "sink Chi to dan tian(氣沈丹田)" occurs....???

 

When a practitioner take a deepest breath; and it seems like that the breath was deep down to the abdomen. It was considered to be "氣沈丹田(sink Chi to dan tian)" when one inhales with the abdomen fully expanded.

 

Why martial arts practitioners want to have the condition of "氣沈丹田(sink Chi to dan tian)".....??? It is because that is the best time which allows the body to generated the maximum physical strength possible.

 

Let's say I had read this somewhere and I think it make sense. Then, I put it in my own words. Please do not take it as gospel but do not defy science neither.

 

"氣沈丹田(sink Chi to dan tian)" is easily said than done. People with breathing problems cannot accomplish the former in the UMB as defined in #2. If people can only do chest breathing, then, they will have problem in doing abdominal breathing. I think it was will explained in the first video about the importance of breathing more oxygen to deliver the oxygenated blood to the body cells. It is true that we are breathing the source of energy rather than the energy from the air. The source of energy is the oxygen in the air which the body cells use to manufacture the biochemical energy which known as ATP.

 

Edited by ChiDragon

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Folks,

 

You can see for yourself knowing Chinese language can be so irrelevant when true knowledge and understanding do not underlie the words.

 

In fact knowing the Chinese language made it so much worse and laughable. Which turned well meaning words into utter garbage. Politeness should meant garbage should not be presented to us all here as if we are a bunch of idiots.

 

Steve is more than right.

 

I am out of this thread. Internet wifi in my hotel is wonky and works about 10 minutes or so in the hour

In which case I should make better use of my time than to come into this thread.

 

Idiotic Taoist

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"氣沈丹田(sink Chi to dan tian)" is easily said than done. People with breathing problems cannot accomplish the former in the UMB as defined in #2. If people can only do chest breathing, then, they will have problem in doing abdominal breathing.

 

In this case, what should one do.....??? Some people are teaching or taken some kind of class in learning how to breathe. May I ask how were you taught or learned, in your class, from chest to abdominal breathing....???

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FYI There are all kinds of Chi Kung methods which they had claimed that they have all kinds of special effects. They all work was because they have incorporated the common denominator, UMB, in the methods. Without the common denominator, otherwise, nothing will work whatever the claims were. I can assure you that.

Edited by ChiDragon

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The ultimate method of breathing(UMB) is inhale with the abdomen is fully expanded; and exhale with the abdomen is fully contracted.

Dan tian(丹田): In this thread, it was defined as the abdominal area below the navel.

 

From a Chi Kung point of view, one who cannot perform abdominal breathing initially, it was considered that the "ren meridian" was blocked. It is because the ren meridian is straight down through the navel and the DT. The first requirement for Chi Kung is to have the breath pass the navel down to the DT with the abdomen fully expanded. When the requirement has been met, it was said to be "Chi sink to the DT(氣沈丹田)" and the "ren meridian" has been cleared. Ever since the "Chi sink to the DT" requirement has been met, it should be performed for regular breathing to have the effectiveness of Chi Kung. Indeed, the first stage of Chi Kung practice has been reached.

 

Some people might argue that is not what they have learned. However, this is very fundamental to understand what Chi Kung is all about for some beginners instead of flooding them with some ambiguous traditional ideas. The best way to prove me wrong is try to practice Chi Kung without the UMB and see how far one can go from there.

 

 

This is my two cents worth.....???

Edited by ChiDragon

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Breathing techniques play a very important role in “methods of building the foundation”.

In fact, correct, deep and quiet breathing helps to create us conditions under which the inner balance, harmony and inner peace can be achieved as quickly as possible.

If breathing is not regulated, then to achieve these results will be very difficult, and in some cases even impossible. Therefore, this important stage of practice needs to be taken seriously and worked out well.

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The ultimate method of breathing(UMB) is inhale with the abdomen is fully expanded; and exhale with the abdomen is fully contracted.

Dan tian(丹田): In this thread, it was defined as the abdominal area below the navel.

 

 

In modern time, "氣沈丹田(sink Chi to dan tian)" is also known as "Dan Tian Breathing" or "Abdominal Breathing" because of the definitions above. In addition, since the diaphragm moves with the abdomen, it is also known as "Diaphragm Breathing". There are more given names that are related to the "Abdominal Breathing" we should be aware of.

Edited by ChiDragon

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This is something happened to the physical change in my body and I would to disclose this event to share with everybody. In few years back, I had bumped my head against the corner of the kitchen cabinet. It hurts but not as painful as I would have expected. Ever since I had practiced Tai Ji Chuan which improved my breathing. However, I was still not able to accomplish, 氣沈丹田(sink chi to dan tian) but one night something was darn on me. What I did was laying down on my bed and start doing the chest breathing. The first night was very difficult. The second night, I tried to hold my breath to force it down to the dan tian, but my head felt pretty heavy and kept trying without success. The third night, I tried again. Finally, my breath burst into my dan tian. Ever since then, I had cleared my ren meridian and perform abdominal breathing, at all times, as my normal breathing habit.

From the breathing throughout the years, I felt my skull became more harden. In the last two years, I have changed my diet by eating raw nuts like walnut, almond, Brazilian nut, pecan, and cooked cashew nut for snack. I looked up what are the elements that are in these nuts. I figured I can get all the calcium, magnesium and all other basic elements that the body needs. Yesterday, some miraculous thing happened to me. When I tried to pick up a brick by the wall without looking anywhere but the brick, I lowered my body with my hands going straight down toward the brick. Unfortunately, I bumped my skull against the metal edge of water cooler by the window. Immediately, I felt that the force of impact was distributed through the cooler into the wall. At the instance, I felt sorry for my skull and I thought it's going to hurt for days. Then used my left hand to rub my skull trying to find the sore spot. Guess what, I did find any sore spot on my skull. Even this morning, it was still no pain at all on my skull. The only thing I felt is my skull was more harden than before.

I had said in another thread that the Hard Gong(硬功) sequence starts with Chi Kung(氣功) to build up the inner strength(內功), then, to the final stage Hard Gong. I think that is exactly what took place in my body. I can elaborate more on this if anyone wish me to. So, what do you all think.....???

Edited by ChiDragon
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Finally, I've found the sore spot. It is a very slightly sore when I have my finger press against it. I was having problem finding it because the pain was so light which hard for me to detect.

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Back to basics....

The ultimate method of breathing(UMB) is inhale with the abdomen is fully expanded; and exhale with the abdomen is fully contracted.

The UMB is not the ultimate yet. It is only the primary step to get to the final stage of Chi Kung. To get the final stage of Chi Kung is involve with the slow body movements plus the UMB, in order, to have its true efficacy. This idea is very trivial by observing any type of Chi Kuing method. If anyone has noticed the first thing that the Chi Kung practitioners do is take a deep breath and raise both hands. It seems to be it was a minor thing to begin with and not worth to be noticed by many. However, most people have been ignoring the fact that breathing has something to do with Chi Kung. Unfortunately, some had practiced for a long time and have not gain any benefits and still don't know why. It would be a real surprise if one has realize that the significance of breathing was hidden in Chi Kung.

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1. Normal breathing is without any restriction to any special procedure but excluding the abdominal breathing.

2. The ultimate method of breathing(UMB) is inhale with the abdomen is fully expanded; and exhale with the abdomen is fully contracted.

3. Dan tian(丹田): In this thread, it was defined as the abdominal area below the navel.

 

What are the breathing rate under the conditions above....???

1. For an ordinary person, the average breathing rate for condition #1 is about 16 times

2. Under the UMB, my normal breathing habit is four times per min.

 

Chi Kung practitioners can breathe less frequent is because they can breathe a higher volume of air/oxygen in one inhalation. There is enough oxygen to last the practitioner for 15 seconds before the next breathing cycle. It gives ample of time for the oxygenated blood to carry the oxygen to the body cells to perform their function. As oppose to normal breathing, the unused portion of oxygen was exhaled before the red blood cells have enough time to collect them. Thus it causes an oxygen deficiency for the cells and the internal organs to be dysfunctional.

Edited by ChiDragon

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For easy explanation and clarity, let's literally separate Chi Kung and Neidan for a simple and better understanding.

This is a review of the universal definition of Chi Kung. Chi Kung is to learn to breathe properly. Chi Kung is to enhance the respiratory system. It is safe to say that it is a prerequisite for all martial arts. Neidan is using Chi Kung for the development and enhancement of the function of the internal organs. In other words, breathing is the first stage of Neidan. If one cannot breathe properly, one may not practice Neidan effectively.

Edited by ChiDragon

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I had learned something from Zhuang Tze. If things are getting too complicated, then let's demystify it. Now, I will do that for Chi Kung. Let's eliminate all the generalizations that we had learned about the effects and accomplishments from Chi Kung. To make it simple, the ultimate goal of Chi Kung is to learn to breathe and send the breath deep down to abdomen. As soon one has accomplished that, it was considered that one has been reached the realm of Chi Kung.

I will start a thread to demystify about Neidan to respond to effilang's comments in another thread.

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... May I ask how were you taught or learned, in your class, from chest to abdominal breathing....???

 

Here is how I learned to breath --

Swimming lessons, singing lessons. Only takes a short amount of time to listen, watch, and learn. Then swim, sing, run, cycle, dance as often and as long as needed. Can be quite fun to practice.

These were learned decades before I even heard of Chi Kung.

 

I am glad that I am learning Chi Kung now. Allows me to continue to be active and healthy. I can't swim, sing, run, cycle, and dance as well as I used to. :D Chi Kung allows me to keep up with the young ones!

 

There was an interesting thread about the importance of carbon dioxide...

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33230-turtle-breathing-the-scientific-rationale/

If I remember the physiology correctly, there are some dangers from alkalosis if the percentage of carbon dioxide is driven too low (from hyperventilation). Seem to remember that hyperventilation contributed to competition free-diving deaths because body can respond more efficiently to Acidosis (too much carbon dioxide) but is unable to respond efficiently to Alkalosis (too small amount of carbon dioxide) -- in fact, I seem to remember that the body had difficulty in detecting Alkalosis in itself.

 

The Ultimate Method of Breathing (UMB) was referred to in the recent walking chi kung thread. Since UMB was never defined there -- in that thread -- I had to google and dig up this UMB thread. Apologies in advance for reviving this and adding my 2 pence.

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'THE' ultimate method of breathing? How can there be only one? You should breath for how you want to feel, or let go and let your breathing go the way that it should on autopilot.

 

Different formal qigong methods in a formless approach is the only way to go. Breathing one way all the time like you learnt on the internet is a bad idea. New Agey qigong is full of unknowns and people that haven't tried enough things for long enough. Shallow breathing is just as benefitial as deep breathing, you need both at different times. Oxygen and CO2 are needed in balance.

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'Ultimate' doesn't imply 'only one'.

It presumes many others.

Hope that helps.

Edited by GrandmasterP

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It is kinda off topic Captain.

UMB and related trades here.

And

What are you listenin' to?

Is over there.

 

(((Points)))

 

:-)

 

Be lucky buddy.

I'm not the milk monitor, just sayin' is all.

 

 

;-)

Edited by GrandmasterP

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'THE' ultimate method of breathing? How can there be only one? You should breath for how you want to feel, or let go and let your breathing go the way that it should on autopilot.

 

Different formal qigong methods in a formless approach is the only way to go. Breathing one way all the time like you learnt on the internet is a bad idea. New Agey qigong is full of unknowns and people that haven't tried enough things for long enough. Shallow breathing is just as benefitial as deep breathing, you need both at different times. Oxygen and CO2 are needed in balance.

 

This is only your understanding based on your present knowledge. UMB is the one most basic guideline for Chi Kung. Anything other than that is just a diversion of it.

 

You should breath for how you want to feel, or let go and let your breathing go the way that it should on autopilot.

Sorry, this does not fit into the definition of UMB. Why do you think we need to practice Chi Kung; and natural breathing does not....???

Edited by ChiDragon
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Standing up from a chair we inhale, rising naturally without thinking, sitting down from standing we exhale, without thinking,sinking.

 

 

When we lift something we inhale, when we push something down we exhale. Body and breath moves as one unit naturally.

 

We are born abdominal breathing and moving our bodies from the LDT this becomes chest breathing and center rises along with it,becoming off balance on many levels in life and the last breath is from the mouth. Chi Gung reverses this process to remain youthful in old age among countless other positive attributes of practice.

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