Learning forgiveness vs. holding grudges

[idiot_stimpy]

We should all stop defining anyways...it would be much better if we did.

 

If that was the case then I wouldn't be able to have a conversation with you as the 'words' are given meaning by each of us.

[Songtsan]

If that was the case then I wouldn't be able to have a conversation with you as the 'words' are given meaning by each of us.

 

Exactly! Words make us fools. Fools for the mind....lol

[Stosh]

what about, "forgive your enemies, do good to those that harm you"?

That got Jesus crucified.

[narveen]

I don't know what your definitions are, so I don't follow you there.

 

definitions for what, stimpy?

[narveen]

That got Jesus crucified.

 

that's the way the story goes.

to make a point.

frankly, in real life, i don't think a smart guy can ever get nailed by dolts.

[Songtsan]

I realized last night/this morning after gorging on sugar that I wasn't able to forgive myself as easily for doing so when the suffering I was experience for having done so was high. Forgiveness is always easier when the suffering which has been felt due to the 'injury' or 'offense' has dimmed. What a great personage a personage must be who can still feel the pain of insult and yet forgive totally and completely. This is really most likely just a symptom of the level of nonattachment and equanimity they have attained.

[Stosh]

A person will say anything under torture , but thats not the measure of the man

The measure of the man is what he chooses when he is free

[Stosh]

that's the way the story goes.

to make a point.

frankly, in real life, i don't think a smart guy can ever get nailed by dolts.

Look again.

[Songtsan]

A person will say anything under torture , but thats not the measure of the man

The measure of the man is what he chooses when he is free

 

But are we ever free of suffering? Maybe only the enlightened are...

[Songtsan]

that's the way the story goes.

to make a point.

frankly, in real life, i don't think a smart guy can ever get nailed by dolts.

 

Some smart guys choose to get nailed by dolts, for the power of a martyr can change the course of history for millenia, and smart people know this.

[steve]

A person will say anything under torture , but thats not the measure of the man

The measure of the man is what he chooses when he is free

 

Well said

[steve]

Zhuangzi's "Empty Boat" parable is something I refer to when I try to deepen my understanding and practice of forgiveness.

[Songtsan]

Zhuangzi's "Empty Boat" parable is something I refer to when I try to deepen my understanding and practice of forgiveness.

 

I am a big advocate of Tonglen, although I haven't been actively practicing as much as I should...

[Stosh]

But are we ever free of suffering? Maybe only the enlightened are...

Fair enough, , then a man may never be measured rightly ,, right?

[Songtsan]

Fair enough, , then a man may never be measured rightly ,, right?

 

To measure is to compare, to compare is to label, to label is the same as judging, to judge is to define, to define is to create a mind fabrication, to fabricate with the mind is delusional. Mind fabrications are anti-reality. They are anti-Tao, anti-enlightenment.

 

To say that anything is anything is to miss the mark. 'Sin' means 'to miss the mark.'

 

We are all sinners!

Edited July 12, 2013 by Songtsan

[hydrogen]

So far nobody has come to ask for my forgiveness. I don't think any body owe my anything in his/her mind.

 

I'd love to get forgiveness from a few people. However I don't think it matters.

 

If the glory belongs to God/Tao, the blame goes there too.

[Songtsan]

So far nobody has come to ask for my forgiveness. I don't think any body owe my anything in his/her mind.

 

I'd love to get forgiveness from a few people. However I don't think it matters.

 

If the glory belongs to God/Tao, the blame goes there too.

 

You may forgive me if you like, and I will forgive you back...

[Songtsan]

haha sin in the Bible is lawlessness as in breaking the laws of God. I personally think sin is not real but just karma.

 

I think sin is especially when we choose to do something which we know will make us feel guilty and we know other people in general will see as wrong. Does a sociopath sin? Supposedly they feel nothing wrong with even the darkest of deeds...surely they gain karma, but is sin something that is self-defined, or is sin something that is group defined? I am sure that there are some things that I am perfectly fine with, such as having same gender relations, that others would consider sin. To me that is not sin, but to others they are. Also, in times of war, the proscription against killing is removed in certain circumstances - it is now socially approved - group consensus says its no longer a sin.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Songtsan

[Stosh]

There is the social definition socially derived

and there is the personal attribution personally derived

But the tao recognizes neither, it cannot be defied,

and so it can not be sinned against by anyone

and , impartial ,has no intent -so it cannot sin against anyone.

[Songtsan]

Let's keep it simple. Wrong is wrong, right is right.

 

It isn't and can never be that simple. For example, in the Jain religion, it is considered wrong to kill any animal, even insects. Some of the practitioners actually wear these little face masks over their mouth nose so that they don't accidentally inhale an insect and create karma. They believe it is a sin - do you? Your wrong may be my right and vice versa. As Stosh indicated in the post above, there is no actual wrong/right within the Tao. It is in fact very complex.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Songtsan

[Songtsan]

Then it's an argument of semantics

 

that and its all a personal choice, as to whether or not to accept within oneself that something is wrong/right...also none of us choose 100% what we feel/think about something. We are programmed by our parents/peers/society to view things as right or wrong. Only a very enlightened person will be able to rid themselves of such conditioning. Or a sociopath simply won't give a damn what anyone else thinks.

[narveen]

I believe anyone could be a saint, although I guess it depends on how 'saint' is defined.

 

on the contrary, i think it depends on how “anyone” is defined.

if we agree that there is only the act and the actor is an illusion,

(i.e. we are talking about the situation of songtsan and not about you, the person called songtsan)

then there is neither hoodlum nor saint but only a behaviour pattern to be considered.

as such, my original question “can a hoodlum ever be a saint”

was mindlessly phrased, nonsensical and misleading.

 

let me re-visit the basis for my mindless question.

you observed that you are a pawn of emotions

it’s like saying,

“i can’t help flying off the handle, maybe it’s my genetic predisposition, my dopamine level”.

therefore, it’s not your fault and forgiveness makes everything right.

 

you are separating yourself from your emotions

i am not responsible

the devil made me do it.

and that western mindset of diminished responsibility,

typically american, came out of europe through freud and jung

 

however, the eastern mindset that has given us all these spiritual cultivating stuff

is unforgiving and accepts no excuses for individual bad behaviour

if you lose it, you pay for it.

as told in this story of an American songtsan who lived in a high-end luxury “hood”

 

no forgiveness: he was forced to pay for it in singapore:

http://www.corpun.com/awfay9405.htm

 

and you say?

[narveen]

Look again.

 

you see any smart guy around?

all i see are dolts

that's why we're all getting nailed

 

is that negative and a bummer?

[narveen]

Zhuangzi's "Empty Boat" parable is something I refer to when I try to deepen my understanding and practice of forgiveness.

 

empty boat means no one is there either doing the wrong or needing the forgiveness.

 

if that is not not understanding of the parable, please share your learning.

if that is your understanding, i would like to take it apart.

 

your call.

[narveen]

There is the social definition socially derived

 

agree, it's democracy

 

and there is the personal attribution personally derived

 

agree, it's personal

 

But the tao recognizes neither, it cannot be defied,

 

uh oh, counsel is speculating and importing an unidentifiable entity in his argument

superstition not allowed

 

and so it can not be sinned against by anyone

and , impartial ,has no intent -so it cannot sin against anyone.

 

conclusion is hokey

the jury is to disregard this