Looking for Proof of advanced taoist master's abilities

[Pero]

Here is an article on someone learning tumo from a book:

http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/392

 

Thanks Max, cool story. This is the fourth version of tummo that I have seen. Thaddeus, since you reccomended Shou Yu Liang in another thread, in his book Qigong Empowerment, there is an exercise called "spiritual flame", which is I believe tummo.

In tantra however, tummo requires an initiation and you have to do creation stage first. Tummo is a completion stage practice. First you have to build the mandala of the deity and purify this dimension, then you are given instructions on tummo. I wonder where the author got these practices. There is a book specifically on tummo, called "The Bliss of Inner Fire" by Lama Yeshe. But I think it says in the book that one requires permission for practice (or an empowerment?) or something like that, if you practice anyway you fall in the hell realm... But it`s a cool book.

If you want to try it (and have no permission), "Spiritual Flame" is good. I practiced for a while, does create heat.

And BTW, while tummo creates heat, that is more like side effect, because tummo is a method for total realization. And I think I remember something about it being the base for the other 5 yogas of Naropa?

 

 

With so many millions of people practicing qigong for so many years, we would see more things like this.

 

Not really. Because of the many millions of people, who practices qigong for such things, and with such great dedication that is required for it? Most practice for health, relaxation, fun, and have their jobs, family to worry about etc...

[thaddeus]

 

If you want to try it (and have no permission), "Spiritual Flame" is good. I practiced for a while, does create heat.

I have the book and will check it out...btw, do you think that the practice would accelerate fat burning? I believe in theory it would/should. It would make for an interesting fitness craze..

T

[tsa]

Yeah, also in the video clip where the 'master' was moving the water, etc...why the tablecloth? You'll find with all of these demo's, there's a setup. No different from a magic show. Someone said it best earlier, when you can't see how it's done, why assume the most magical explanation?

With so many millions of people practicing qigong for so many years, we would see more things like this.

A curious thing about the rolled up towel..notice how the whole towel generated heat and nothing around it? You mean to say the qi emitted from the guy is so precise that only the towel and only the tin foil heats up? Again, I don't remember much of my physics, but I'm sure a real scientist would have something to say about reflective heat vs generated heat in those examples.

T

Thanks guys. I was starting to think I was by far the minority on this one. I was going to mention the tablecloth too on the one with the old man. If you watch it over and over, you can actually see the tablecloth move before the effect happens. My guess is that if he was made to do this stuff on the solid ground and no tablecloth, then he would not be able to do these things. Good to question the setup and the preexisting conditions - good critical thinking.

[spyrelx]

You'll find with all of these demo's, there's a setup. No different from a magic show. Someone said it best earlier, when you can't see how it's done, why assume the most magical explanation?

T

 

 

I don't know. I'm a pretty big skeptic, and a pretty big believer in having stringent scientific tests (e.g., that harvard study on Tumo that someone posted).

 

But I disagree with the position "when you can't see how it's done, why assume the most magical explanation?". I mean, the person who is showing the effect (and presumably knows the most about how it works) is CLAIMING a supernatural explanation. Some credence should be given to their stated views. In other words, to automatically REJECT a supernatural explanation is to start with the bias that the guy doing the effect is a liar. So I think that's unbalanced.

 

If you asked those monks how they dried sheets they would have told you meditation generaged chi/heat. That was their story. That was their explanation. One could automatically think "well, they're just a bunch of charlatans, that they've got trick sheets, etc." But in fact, that wasn't the case. In fact, their "supernatural" explanation seems to be dead on. So if you had assumed magic, you would have been correct. If you had assumed trickery, you would have been wrong.

 

Most people on this board believe in stuff that the average guy would consider supernatural (e.g., moving chi around your body). So we already accept the possiblity of "magic". It's just that some of us draw the line of ready acceptance at different places. (e.g, I start to draw the line at people moving things without touching them. I just don't buy it and need more proof. Others like Sean D, Max, etc. don't draw the line there and readily accept extraordinary demonstrations as true without any need for additional proof).

 

Personally, I think it's completely valid to ask for more proof. Indeed, I think it's both smart and beneficial to all to do so. But I think to start with the assumption that all these guys are liars goes a bit too far.

[thaddeus]

 

Personally, I think it's completely valid to ask for more proof. Indeed, I think it's both smart and beneficial to all to do so. But I think to start with the assumption that all these guys are liars goes a bit too far.

Hey Spy, I'm not really sure what you're saying here. By your statements, the guys moving things and lighting fires must be liars. I personally am not considering the monk/sheets thing magical. Moving chi in your body? That's all personal experience, which is beyond the scope of this thread. The videos showing props and blankets, to me, is the same as a magic trick. That's all I was saying. We were discussing things that go beyond the realm of currently understood physics..like boiling water and moving a bucket of water..

T

[thelerner]

For me the question involves nature, personal and external. Personally I know I'm a a chemical/electrical being as is most life on this earth. Dead or alive, prick me a volt and I'll move. To build a robot me would require some major amperage. Its not far fetched that we could learn to focus and concentrate it.

 

I believe the pictures of chi gung masters giving others electrical shocks. I've seen people like Dirk Oiledahardt at work. Likewise I've had temperatures of 105+. The untrained body, in fact the sick body, can generate huge amounts of heat. Its a protective mechanism. I know it can harnessed as in Tumo to dry and warm the body.

 

I've heard people hypothesize OBE's were natures way of keeping our very early ancestors alive at night in a world where they were prey. There's a logic to that. There's even compelling examples of pets who have near psychic abilities to find there way home and rescuing people.

 

In engineering there is the term, nature has done it better. Look somewhere in the natural kingdom from bacteria to whales and you will find an elegant solution to most engineering problems. Animals are masters of Tumo. There can be proofs found of telepathy in the animal kingdom. Other psychic powers, I don't know.

 

For telekinesis I don't have a natural prototype. No animals(that I know of) do it. There are physics involved that make it unlikely. No impossible, but less possible. Seeing films is a good beginning proof. But it would be better if tables weren't covered with cloth. It brings in questions which is too bad. Ultimately its nice to see 5 or 6 people wafting pencils in the air, writing with them, and handing them too you.

 

 

Michael

[Pero]

I have the book and will check it out...btw, do you think that the practice would accelerate fat burning? I believe in theory it would/should. It would make for an interesting fitness craze..

 

Lol, I have no idea. I`m a s skinny guy and don`t care for such things.

Besides, doesn`t fat make you warmer? So it would be kind of counterproductive no?

(I`m just kidding)

 

 

If you watch it over and over, you can actually see the tablecloth move before the effect happens.

 

 

Yeah, but if you watch anything long enough, you begin to see what you want or expect to see.

Edited January 29, 2007 by Pero

[spyrelx]

Hey Spy, I'm not really sure what you're saying here. By your statements, the guys moving things and lighting fires must be liars. I personally am not considering the monk/sheets thing magical. Moving chi in your body? That's all personal experience, which is beyond the scope of this thread. The videos showing props and blankets, to me, is the same as a magic trick. That's all I was saying. We were discussing things that go beyond the realm of currently understood physics..like boiling water and moving a bucket of water..

T

 

 

Thadeus,

 

Not sure if we're miscommunicating.

 

Regarding moving chi in your body, that IS personal experience, but it's either pure imagination or there's actually energy that's moving that we can feel. Most of us believe that's real energy there, an energy that most psyiologists deny exists.

 

I mean, I'm imagining right now that there's a little guy named Homer is sitting on a mushroom inside my belly. He's waving at me. That's pure imagination.

 

Now I'm focusing on my dan tien and feeling energy gather there. I say that's real -- that energy actually is gathering there. Not blood, not some trick of my nerve endings, actual chi. Most doctors would disagree, and see little difference between Homer and my experience of chi.

 

Regarding moving things, etc., what I'm saying is I'm not assuming anyone is a liar that say's they're moving stuff by chi. So I'm NOT assuming that the guy moving water or knocking over bricks is faking. On the other hand, I'm not convinced it's real. I'm keeping an open mind but, frankly, find it hard to believe, so I'd like to see some more proof.

 

The guy knocking over bricks is a good example of this whole problem. Every time he comes up Sean glibly mentions that he's one of David's teachers. I.e., Sean is soooooo sure this guy is for real and not the circus performer he appears to be on the video. So we have a guy doing what appears to be cheap magic tricks and -- not only is the guy himself claiming he's for real -- but we have a kind of second or third hand assurance that he is, in fact, real. (i.e., Sean wouldn't lie to us, and David wouldn't lie to him. And David says this guy is real).

 

But (to my eye) he looks ridiculous. Like a real tremendous fake. So where do I come out? I say, gee, that looks pretty fake, maybe it's possible, but because it's so out there I'd like to see some really hard evidence of that.

 

That's all I'm saying.

[thaddeus]

Now I'm focusing on my dan tien and feeling energy gather there. I say that's real -- that energy actually is gathering there. Not blood, not some trick of my nerve endings, actual chi. Most doctors would disagree, and see little difference between Homer and my experience of chi.

This is a cool topic for discussion..maybe in another thread? I'll just drop the other stuff for now, I think we're both on the same page on that..

When you say you feel energy gather..what exactly is that? The tone of this thread was about critical thinking. When you think of a part of your body, the chinese say chi goes there. Chi and blood are supposed to be the same..maybe Qidr or anyone else with a background in TCM can chime in here. So the sense of fullness and warmth *is* increased blood circulation. What do you mean by 'actual chi'...I'm actually nurturing a personal theory..that the phenomena of chi is really a gas we produced called nitric oxide..

T

[Jonah]

More definitive proof of chi power caught on film.

 

This high-level master has the ability to walk through walls, levitate, and has taken the powers of healing water way beyond anyone else mentioned so far. His water has the ability not only to reverse aging, and heal a multitude of diseases, but it actually can bring near-dead things back to life.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtG6t6LcNAU

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8qX0ZhzJBU

 

http://www.exposay.com/david-copperfield-c...f-youth/v/3735/

 

(He also has supernatural abilities to date super-models despite having a cheesy appearance and mannerisms. Another indication of embodied Buddhahood.)

[spyrelx]

More definitive proof of chi power caught on film.

 

This high-level master has the ability to walk through walls, levitate, and has taken the powers of healing water way beyond anyone else mentioned so far. His water has the ability not only to reverse aging, and heal a multitude of diseases, but it actually can bring near-dead things back to life.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtG6t6LcNAU

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8qX0ZhzJBU

 

http://www.exposay.com/david-copperfield-c...f-youth/v/3735/

 

(He also has supernatural abilities to date super-models despite having a cheesy appearance and mannerisms. Another indication of embodied Buddhahood.)

 

Actually, maintaining balance and composure whilst dating a super model is probably the toughest trick he's done.

 

The most amazing thing to me was that he paid $67 million for an island. I mean who knew he had that kind of money? And all his tricks are so lame. No wonder people go into that racket.

 

 

Hey Thaddeus,

 

I've heard all different views on what "chi" actually is. Blood is one. Negative ions is another. Electromagnetism is a particularly popular one. Then there's the theory that it's really a phenomena that is identifying a number of electromagnetic and psyiological processes.

 

My personal favorite these days is "none of the above". That is, it's an energy that manifests itself as certain changes in the body, but it is not those changes. (Gravity is not the apple that falls, it is the force that is making it fall. We measure the strength of that force by observing the apple, but neither the apple nor its movement is gravity). I'm not an expert, but I don't think TCM would disagree.

[hagar]

There is no such thing as magic.

 

There is such a thing as trickery and charlatans, but not magic.

 

If we take practice seriously, there really should be nothing that we experience that is not just matter of fact or not at all.

 

There is so many things in this world that is far more unbelievable than "paranormal" powers.

 

I see, on a regular basis, girls in Oslo, who dress up for friday night in miniskirts and high heels and go out in the freezing streets in a blizzard without ever - and I mean ever - getting sick. Now that is true magic. The training those girls go through to look good is beyond any taoist master. They start practicing in gradeschool and build their powers until menopause. Nietzsche said: I have never seen a woman who dress lightly, but feel beautiful become ill..."

 

h

[tsa]

[Spectrum]

You're absoulately right. There are far more amazing things not attributed to taoist masters.

 

Gome.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Spectrum

[Pero]

I see, on a regular basis, girls in Oslo, who dress up for friday night in miniskirts and high heels and go out in the freezing streets in a blizzard without ever - and I mean ever - getting sick.

 

Mmmmm, Hagar can I come visit you?

[Wayfarer64]

There is no such thing as magic.

h

 

I believe in magic...In a young girl's heart, in music and freedom ...etc ...(The Lovin' Spoonful reference)

 

So I guess Romantic Love is pretty magical! There may be a chemical explanatiion, but any pruriant fingers seeking to delve into such secrets and mysteries deserve less than Spring as an answer...(e.e. cummings reference)

 

So as a word, magic means mysterious joy for me, not super-natural hooey...

 

Any pics of the snow bunnies would be welcomed, just for clarification of course! I believe the abilities of young women to turn grown men into blathering idiots should be investigated! My mojo ain't workin as it once did and I need some counter-measures for dealing with these mysteries...)

 

Presto-chango -Pat

[lino]

There is no such thing as magic.

 

There is such a thing as trickery and charlatans, but not magic.

 

If we take practice seriously, there really should be nothing that we experience that is not just matter of fact or not at all.

 

There is so many things in this world that is far more unbelievable than "paranormal" powers.

 

I see, on a regular basis, girls in Oslo, who dress up for friday night in miniskirts and high heels and go out in the freezing streets in a blizzard without ever - and I mean ever - getting sick. Now that is true magic. The training those girls go through to look good is beyond any taoist master. They start practicing in gradeschool and build their powers until menopause. Nietzsche said: I have never seen a woman who dress lightly, but feel beautiful become ill..."

 

h

 

I've seen that in Syracuse, NY in the middle of winter with wind chill that was 20 below in Fahrenheit(-22 Celsius???). Not so extreme with the miniskirt but they were wearing the half shirts with no shaking whatsoever, could have been somewhat alcohol fueled. After a while, I was wondering if it was MY PERCEPTION of reality that was screwed up and their's that was actually sound.

[DentyDao]

I wonder how Freud would comment on this thread. First a bunch of subjective rationalization negating the possibility of the supernatural or religious belief systems, placing materialism in a superior position as the dominant archetype because of it's basis in a more fashionable belief system, science; followed by a philosophical analysis of miniskirts in cold weather and a collective, but unspoken, fantasy that involves frozen nipples and asses.

 

I think we have a classic example of the unconscious rejection of the neurotic unconscious patterns implanted by the Catholic church coupled with the release of 2000 yrs of unconscious sexual repression. Which leads us to our current mode of personal freedom above social responsibility and vagina worship. Which of course is why every radical Muslim hates America and will eventually either kill us all or join us in our acceptance of animalistic modes which, propagated by large corporations, allow us to be controlled and manipulated on subtle levels that the Church only dreamed of.

 

Sweet ignorance.

 

S

[lino]

I wonder how Freud would comment on this thread. First a bunch of subjective rationalization negating the possibility of the supernatural or religious belief systems, placing materialism in a superior position as the dominant archetype because of it's basis in a more fashionable belief system, science; followed by a philosophical analysis of miniskirts in cold weather and a collective, but unspoken, fantasy that involves frozen nipples and asses.

 

I think we have a classic example of the unconscious rejection of the neurotic unconscious patterns implanted by the Catholic church coupled with the release of 2000 yrs of unconscious sexual repression. Which leads us to our current mode of personal freedom above social responsibility and vagina worship. Which of course is why every radical Muslim hates America and will eventually either kill us all or join us in our acceptance of animalistic modes which, propagated by large corporations, allow us to be controlled and manipulated on subtle levels that the Church only dreamed of.

 

Sweet ignorance.

 

S

 

Sorry, I can't reject the old guy on "Ripley's..." since I saw his palms glowing on that IR camera that they had set up. I believe that the guy was able to direct his chi with pinpoint precision. After reading some about alchemy, from my interpretation, conscious vision (focused vision) merges with unconscious vision (peripheral vision). Peripheral vision can pick up candlelight up to three miles away.

http://www.navaching.com/hawkeen/nwalk.html <--- even though what is done on this page is done without alchemy

 

From some of the reading, one of the indicators that the lower level alchemy is working is a difficulty with reading.

[Pero]

More definitive proof of chi power caught on film.

 

This high-level master has the ability to walk through walls, levitate, and has taken the powers of healing water way beyond anyone else mentioned so far. His water has the ability not only to reverse aging, and heal a multitude of diseases, but it actually can bring near-dead things back to life.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtG6t6LcNAU

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8qX0ZhzJBU

 

http://www.exposay.com/david-copperfield-c...f-youth/v/3735/

 

(He also has supernatural abilities to date super-models despite having a cheesy appearance and mannerisms. Another indication of embodied Buddhahood.)

 

Actually, I just remembered, I think that Li Hong Zhi (founder of Falung Gong) somewhere in his two books mentions David Copperfield. He says something like, all that he (David) does is real, but is disguised under the name of "magic tricks", because the world isn`t ready for it, or something to that effect.

[thelerner]

I wonder how Freud would comment on this thread. First a bunch of subjective rationalization negating the possibility of the supernatural or religious belief systems, placing materialism in a superior position as the dominant archetype because of it's basis in a more fashionable belief system, science; followed by a philosophical analysis of miniskirts in cold weather and a collective, but unspoken, fantasy that involves frozen nipples and asses.

 

S

 

I think this site is more Jungian then Freudian; and if Jung was commenting on the thread he'd say

"Rock on TaoBums, rock on"

 

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

I think this site is more Jungian then Freudian; and if Jung was commenting on the thread he'd say

"Rock on TaoBums, rock on"

Michael

 

 

Jung was the MAN and helped Taoism gain some adherents in years past... He was not so hung-up as Freudians with the mamaries but he did have a lot to say about the collective subconscious that was very inlightening.

Hey There Sean D,- That just didn't ring true as an analysis...Besides I am a leg-man and I had no nipples thing going on at all,,, Stay out of my fantasy world why dontcha!?

Why is it that the abilities of women scare some men(and other women too) so much anyway? Once you've made love to a few beautiful women the mystique is gone but the attraction grows more accessable and the inner-self comes into focus. Some are exposed as vapid, most are pretty accessable and available for men who are not shaken-up by sex-appeal...

 

Everyone just uses what they have been given and then many of us try developing new talents and tools to further ourselves...

 

But power is sexy & sexy is powerful, we all are attracted at some level to sexy and that is real power! Some sexy/power seems pretty odd - I've known many musicians who had very beautiful girlfriends/wives/lovers just because they could play their axe...Thank God, but what is up with that power? Is it too super-natural?

[DentyDao]

LMAOSHITISMPAL

 

I'm laughing my ass off so hard I think I shit my pants a little.

 

Hey Pat, did you ever go to that Buddhist guy's talk? Give us the low down.

[Wayfarer64]

LMAOSHITISMPAL

 

I'm laughing my ass off so hard I think I shit my pants a little.

 

Hey Pat, did you ever go to that Buddhist guy's talk? Give us the low down.

 

I am sorry to say that I could not find the time to attend...I need to phone and say sorry/hi to AiWai- I appologize now...

 

SD-should we send ya some Depends? Keeping EVERYTHING in yr pants can be trying! We may get sillier yet!

 

But in all semi-seriousness those sexy woman may test our abilities to maintain our qi and or mojo with so little effort I think that is a pretty super-power in itself...As every male who is hetero, (and femaale who isn't)- can testify to it...But what would the scientific proof need to be? If they can withstand extreme cold, and distract jing/qi retainers from their intentions and attentions what else can be achieved?

 

Stay warm out there ! Namaste-PDG

[lino]

I am sorry to say that I could not find the time to attend...I need to phone and say sorry/hi to AiWai- I appologize now...

 

SD-should we send ya some Depends? Keeping EVERYTHING in yr pants can be trying! We may get sillier yet!

 

But in all semi-seriousness those sexy woman may test our abilities to maintain our qi and or mojo with so little effort I think that is a pretty super-power in itself...As every male who is hetero, (and femaale who isn't)- can testify to it...But what would the scientific proof need to be? If they can withstand extreme cold, and distract jing/qi retainers from their intentions and attentions what else can be achieved?

 

Stay warm out there ! Namaste-PDG

 

Could you send him my apologies too?