Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

...

One sign of having trained in rigpa, the awakened state, is simply that conceptual thinking, which is the opposite of rigpa, grows less and less. The gap between thoughts grow longer and longer and occurs more and more frequently. The state of unfabricated awareness, what the tantras call the 'continuous instant of nonfabrication' becomes more prolonged. Once we become accustomed to the genuine state of unfabricated rigpa, it will automatically start to last longer and longer."

 

 

Hi CT

I don't think the conceptual mind is the opposite of the state of rigpa.

 

I think there is slight misinterpretation of this concept which has been proliferated by various teachings. It is a subtle distinction but it has led to people thinking that the "gap between thoughts" is rigpa. Granted, rigpa is inherent in all states of mind, but it is not the "gap between thoughts". It is the gap between occurences of the conceptual mind. I wouldn't even call it a gap.

 

This main misinterpretation is found in various teachings. They say, "watch your thoughts". At some point you will notice that there is no thought. That gap between thoughts is it. Pure awareness. But what they don't say in the instructions is that if you come to a point where you do not notice any thoughts (and you are not simply focusing on the space into which the thought dissolved), try expanding your scope or field of awareness. Because, you might succeed in clearing a little space in which no thoughts arise, but if you expand your scope or field of awareness, make it larger and more subtle, you will discover hundreds or thousands of thoughts that you wern't aware of in your subconscious. If you grasp or avert those, you are caught and you are not in the state rigpa.

 

If, on the other hand, you can maintain a state of not grasping or averting those hundreds or thousands of thoughts, the thoughts arise and pass more quickly. It looks like you are viewing hundreds of colored visions go whizzing by. Eventually, the whole event of arising and passing shuts off if you do not grasp or avert, and the coarse mind dissolves into the substrate consciousness. But that isn't even rigpa. In order to get to rigpa (if i can use those crude terms), one has to go beyond the substrate consciousness (the ground of nirvana and samsara) right down to Primordial Ground. And even that idea isn't quite correct because it is still dualistic to speak of it in this way.

 

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen

From the perspective of Dzogchen, the ultimate nature of all sentient beings is said to be pure, all-encompassing, primordial clarity or naturally occurring timeless clarity. This intrinsic clarity has no form of its own and yet is capable of perceiving, experiencing, reflecting, or expressing all form. It does so without being affected by those forms in any ultimate, permanent way. The analogy given by Dzogchen masters is that one's nature is like a mirror which reflects with complete openness but is not affected by the reflections, or like a crystal ball that takes on the colour of the material on which it is placed without itself being changed. The knowledge that ensues from recognizing this mirror-like clarity (which cannot be found by searching nor identified^[2]) is what Dzogchenpas refer to as rigpa.^[3]

 

That last part about "which cannot be found by searching" hits me in the head like a hammer. You see, I was reading Franklin Merrill-Wolff's book called "Experience and Philosophy" in the park one day. And, he said the same thing. He said, that realization is very simple. It is so simple, in fact that everyone misses it. They miss it by searching for it.

 

So, after reading that, I sat up straight and made an effort not to search for anything. Suddenly, a waterous-clear-light presence revealed itself to me. It was clear like crystal, and filled with love/bliss/joy. I was astounded and mesmerized. It was physically situation between the "I" in the head and the outer visual field. The silence and taste of it only lasted for a few seconds because the conceptual mind, like a massive billowing cloud of thoughts, kept trying to erupt from the back, causing the state to disappear. It was yelling out thoughts like "this is it!", "you have finally found it", "you have discovered the truth", "It won't last".. I fought real hard to strike down that cloud of thoughts but with all my efforts could not keep it at bay. I did get back into the state a few minutes later by relaxing into it, but again it didn't last long and then it went away and I can't seem to get back to it.

 

The state was like looking into the face of God. There was no me or God (whatever that was), there was just a "we". So much love and bliss, clarity and light, shine and presence. At that point, I started to hate the conceptual mind. I started to realize that the conceptual mind is one of the veils (or the veil) that prevents us from seeing the truth of reality.

 

Whether or not that state was rigpa, I do not know because Nobody has shown me rigpa and put a label on it. But yes, I would love for that state to grow and become permanent. But there is no comparison between that state and the "gap between thoughts".

 

So, perhaps I am being picky, very picky here. But if people would realize that the absence of thoughts is a sign of progress on the path and keep pursuing that, by expanding the space of awareness, they might eventually get to the point where they truly get deeper.

 

Thanks for taking a sincere interest the subject and contributing your knowledge.

 

TI

[konchog uma]

So your position is that Dzogchen is training "the mind constantly to resolve pliability and let go of conceptual fixations"? Sounds like a very logical approach, but how is that different from standard Buddhism? What is the point of a Guru/transmission?

 

 

what is standard buddhism? whose standards?

 

most buddhism seeks to generate a foundation then build on it until years later the practitioner realizes the natural state and develops a relationship with it, while dzogchen begins with a guru's direct introduction to the natural state of mind. what follows is various sadhanas but mostly (especially in ChNNRs dzogchen community) guruyoga, which employs various means (the a and thigle, mantra, but mostly the direct experience of the natural state) as a practice to return to, and rest in that natural state until it becomes constant.

 

i dont think youre going to find a logically satisfactory answer to "why is it faster?" its faster because people who practice it achieve realization in less time than "standard" buddhists or non-dzogchenpas. *GENERALLY SPEAKING.

 

if you have to ask what is the point of transmission i can't explain it. Your karma will either attract you to study and practice dzogchen, or not. and if you choose to speculate and theorize and approach dzogchen as an academic exercise in labeling some paths as faster and some slower, well bless you. but i recommend practice, and letting that practice speak for itself.

 

dzogchen is mystical, its not a nut youre going to crack with 20 logical questions

Edited December 16, 2012 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

My statements above are based on my own personal experiences and discussions with masters of two other primordial paths.

 

 

thats what im saying, its not dzogchen.

 

those views aren't taught anywhere else but your "personal experience". they arent recognized views. thats all.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Right. It has nothing to do with astral planes, dreams and whatnot.

 

Hi Pero,

Just because you cannot conceive of attending lessons through the astral plane to hear oral instructions, or receive transmissions or shaktipat, it does not mean that these are not possible. Try expanding your vision and understanding a little..

You'd be surprised how many Buddhist teachings (and books) have been channeled from spirits without bodies..

 

TI

[konchog uma]

 

Thanks for taking a sincere interest the subject and contributing your knowledge.

 

TI

 

top notch post TI

 

in dzogchen teachings by several teachers including norbu, i have read that there can be thoughts, or no thoughts, but the regardless of this, one can be resting in the natural state. I am reading a couple anthologies of dzogchen authors, neither of which i have in front of me right now (at a cafe) but i am pretty sure the analogy has been drawn between thoughts in the natural state, and a thief in an empty house. The natural state is nondual beyond qualifiers like thoughts or not thoughts to my understanding, which is very poor, but i am pretty sure of this

[konchog uma]

Hi Pero,

Just because you cannot conceive of attending lessons through the astral plane to hear oral instructions, or receive transmissions or shaktipat, it does not mean that these are not possible. Try expanding your vision and understanding a little..

You'd be surprised how many Buddhist teachings (and books) have been channeled from spirits without bodies..

 

TI

 

mind treasures (termas) and samboghakaya emanations aside, i think Pero just meant that dzogchen teachings and practice perse had nothing to do with dreams and astral travel. They might be side effects of practice, and are non unknown to dzogchenpas, but they arent part of the dzogchen teachings. If i understand correctly. forgive me for butting in

[RongzomFan]

mind treasures (termas) and samboghakaya emanations aside, i think Pero just meant that dzogchen teachings and practice perse had nothing to do with dreams and astral travel. They might be side effects of practice, and are non unknown to dzogchenpas, but they arent part of the dzogchen teachings. If i understand correctly. forgive me for butting in

 

We have dream yoga. ChNN has a book in 2 editions on this.

 

Again, the book is for those with transmission.

[konchog uma]

We have dream yoga. ChNN has a book in 2 editions on this.

 

Again, the book is for those with transmission.

 

good point thanks, i think of that as an inner yoga cause im familiar with years of kagyu and am new to dzogchen

[Pero]

So, if knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance, then a replay of the transmission should be just as effective, hence Pero is mistaken.

I have explained why according to my understanding that isn't so but you seem to have missed that post. Also, I think it has to do with the teacher's intention as well.

 

Just because you cannot conceive of attending lessons through the astral plane to hear oral instructions, or receive transmissions or shaktipat, it does not mean that these are not possible. Try expanding your vision and understanding a little..

You're missing the point. I'm not saying one can't receive transmission through dreams (however I do think that for it to be something authentic one has to be quite far along on the path, not an ordinary person like us). I'm saying that that's not what mind to mind transmission means. I looked if there's an explanation in one of the public books I have but couldn't find it. Perhaps it is in the "Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State", I don't have that book.

 

You'd be surprised how many Buddhist teachings (and books) have been channeled from spirits without bodies..

I wouldn't be, since if they were mere spirits they weren't giving authentic Buddhist teachings.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Tibetan_Ice, on 15 December 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

 

Many gurus, spiritual beings and even Max (kunlun) have the ability to visit other people through the astral planes, or dreams or visions.

 

Who are these many gurus? Name names, or I call b.s.

 

Hi Alwayson,

I am totally surprised by your question. I thought you'd read vast numbers of Buddhist books, and read about all the magic acts and abilities that the Buddhist masters have displayed. Your questioning is either an admission of a lack of knowledge, lack of understanding, or you are just trolling.

 

You know, there is an old saying, something about pearls before swine.. Someone asked me to start with that.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearls_Before_Swine

 

"Pearls before swine" and "casting pearls" refer to a quotation from Matthew 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." in Jesus's Sermon on the Mount, implying that scriptural truth or knowledge (pearls) should not be put in front of people (or in this case, swine) who do not appreciate their value.

.

 

But, to answer your question, at the risk of being trampled, I will respond with my personal experiences so they cannot be construed as heresay.

 

Jesus. I met Jesus in a church about 24 years ago. Sat on the bench, could not move. Massive realization. I've written about it many times. Since then, Jesus is always there. Always there. So is the Holy Ghost.

 

The Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost looks like a ball of white transparent light with wings. It comes around and shoots beams of light at people's heads, whereupon the person is left with two wings of light on the head that resemble a dove's wings. The resultant experience is that of top-down waves of energy that ooze down on the inside of the body like molasses..

 

Sri Anandi Ma and Dhyan Yogi. When I received shaktipat in absentia, I communicated with Sri Anandi Ma and Dhyan Yogi many times. I saw their faces. They gave me instructions. Sri Anandi Ma even materialized a red rose in the astral plane for me after passing my arduous ten-day initiation.

 

The Dalai Lama. About three months ago, he visited me one night as I was lying in bed, just before falling asleep. It supercharged me so much I did not sleep much that night. He is such a fine compassionate being.

 

C N Norbu. He visited me last week and appeared, again above the foot of the bed as I was just lying down to go to sleep. He smiled and after that, the golden aware light in my head expanded.. Didn't sleep much that night either.

 

Max. When I first hear Max talk about Kunlun on a radio show, I experienced massive waves/tingles/energies that lasted for over two hours. Then, after practising Kunlun for a while, a world appeared to me on the astral plane. It looked like a huge ocean, and blue sky. I tried to go there, but Max appeared, and shook his finger at me. I had to wait. But the vision persisted, through the day and night. After a few days, and practising more Kunlun, I tried to "go" to that world. When I got there I noticed that there was a clay or brown figure floating above the water. So, I went and occupied the figure. Then, I watched the most spectacular sunrise that I've ever seen. The vision of the world and the sun lasted for about a month. I would meditate, then go and inhabit the figure. Towards the end, the figure started moving in circle eights. It was like being on a joy ride. I think I was being purified.

 

Since then, if I think of Max, sometimes he will appear to me. The last time I saw him was about three weeks ago. He looked like he had lost some weight, but still had some lose skin under his chin, like he was recovering from a double chin.. And, every time he visits me, I get so charged that I don't sleep much.

 

On two separate occasions, after meditation sessions, I have seen an angel. A wonderful being of transparent white light, with wings that stretched out to the ground. The love that was transmitted was so overwhelming, you just wouldn't believe it. It was during times when I meditated with a mantra from the heart and a sincere desire to realize God.

 

I've also communicated with a "Buddha" on the astral plane. I don't think it was "the Buddha" because this one had a fat belly. But, I would ask it questions and he would draw little scenes to answer my questions. And the little scenes that he would draw always started at the bottom left, and then went upwards.. I think it may have been a Japanese Buddha..

 

You know, seeing beings on the astral planes, or in the mind's eye, or through the subtrate consciousness or whatever you want to call it, is not bullshit.

 

A good use for bullshit is to compact them tightly into bricks, bake them in the oven and then build a wall, or house out of them. That will stop the winds.

 

TI

[Creation]

i have one questions about all that, which i found helpful btw. I am sure that i have read that the alayavijnana is a state of ignorance. Am i wrong, or is that to be understood in a certain context? Thanks for the clarification sorry for lack of source.

Hi anamatva.

 

This is one of those instances in which different lineages say different things. In classical yogacara, alayavijnana is the basis of the unenlightened mind, and it ceases upon enlightenment. But the original yogacara doctrines did not include (explicit) discussion of "buddha nature". Thus many syntheses of yogacara and tathagatagarbha thought developed over time. One of the earliest was the Lankavatara sutra, which promoted alayavijnana (8th consciousness) to equality with Buddha nature, which is to say, the primordially pure aspect of mind, and redefined the basis the unenlightened mind to be the manas (7th consciousness). This is how things are understood in Zen, whose primary scriptural basis is the Lankavatara. Another synthesis postulated a level beyond the eight consciousness, the alaya (all base, as distinct from alaya-vijnana), as the primordially pure mind, retaining alayavijnana as the basis of ignorance. This is as far as I understand, the view of the Kagyu and Sakya schools, and is more in line with classical yogacara thought. Here vijnana is taken to imply unenlightened cognition, in contradistinction to jnana, enlightened perception. (N.B. think twice before you call the alayavijnana the alaya). Many Western expositions of Dzogchen use this 9 level system (Alan Wallace speaks of distinguishing alayavijnana and dhramkaya, yes? So he would be equating alaya=dharmakaya.) But apparently, fully fledged Dzogchen philosophy a la Lonchenpa et al makes an even finer distinction. I may be getting the details wrong here, but beyond alayavijnana (kun-gzhi rnam-shes) there are two: alaya (kun-gzhi), which is the basis of Samsara prior to alayavijnana, and gzhi (base, no direct Sanskrit equivalent here) which basis for Nirvana. This is very specific to the Dzogchen worldview/cosmology and is not shared with Anuttarayoga Tantra, Mahamudra, or Lamdre. So it is certainly understandable that introductions and nonsectarian-oriented works would use the simpler model. But apparently the more Dzogchen-specific model is relevant to togel practice.

 

By the way, you also asked about vidya. Yes, vidya is a generic Sanskrit word for knowledge, but in the context of Dzogchen it takes on a very specific technical meaning, as you know.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Creation

[Jeff]

 

i dont think youre going to find a logically satisfactory answer to "why is it faster?" its faster because people who practice it achieve realization in less time than "standard" buddhists or non-dzogchenpas. *GENERALLY SPEAKING.

 

if you have to ask what is the point of transmission i can't explain it. Your karma will either attract you to study and practice dzogchen, or not. and if you choose to speculate and theorize and approach dzogchen as an academic exercise in labeling some paths as faster and some slower, well bless you. but i recommend practice, and letting that practice speak for itself.

 

dzogchen is mystical, its not a nut youre going to crack with 20 logical questions

 

Thank you for your above response. I completely agree that Dzogchen is mystical. That has been my point in all of my posts in the thread. Transmissions are very important. They define the difference of a primordial path.

 

 

P.s. My karma has definitely led me to primordial paths.

[konchog uma]

Hi anamatva.

 

This is one of those instances in which different lineages say different things. In classical yogacara, alayavijnana is the basis of the unenlightened mind, and it ceases upon enlightenment. But the original yogacara doctrines did not include (explicit) discussion of "buddha nature". Thus many syntheses of yogacara and tathagatagarbha thought developed over time. One of the earliest was the Lankavatara sutra, which promoted alayavijnana (8th consciousness) to equality with Buddha nature, which is to say, the primordially pure aspect of mind, and redefined the basis the unenlightened mind to be the manas (7th consciousness). This is how things are understood in Zen, whose primary scriptural basis is the Lankavatara. Another synthesis postulated a level beyond the eight consciousness, the alaya (all base, as distinct from alaya-vijnana), as the primordially pure mind, retaining alayavijnana as the basis of ignorance. This is as far as I understand, the view of the Kagyu and Sakya schools, and is more in line with classical yogacara thought. Here vijnana is taken to imply unenlightened cognition, in contradistinction to jnana, enlightened perception. (N.B. think twice before you call the alayavijnana the alaya). Many Western expositions of Dzogchen use this 9 level system (Alan Wallace speaks of distinguishing alayavijnana and dhramkaya, yes? So he would be equating alaya=dharmakaya.) But apparently, fully fledged Dzogchen philosophy a la Lonchenpa et al makes an even finer distinction. I may be getting the details wrong here, but beyond alayavijnana (kun-gzhi rnam-shes) there are two: alaya (kun-gzhi), which is the basis of Samsara prior to alayavijnana, and gzhi (base, no direct Sanskrit equivalent here) which basis for Nirvana. This is very specific to the Dzogchen worldview/cosmology and is not shared with Anuttarayoga Tantra, Mahamudra, or Lamdre. So it is certainly understandable that introductions and nonsectarian-oriented works would use the simpler model. But apparently the more Dzogchen-specific model is relevant to togel practice.

 

By the way, you also asked about vidya. Yes, vidya is a generic Sanskrit word for knowledge, but in the context of Dzogchen it takes on a very specific technical meaning, as you know.

 

illuminating, creation, thank you very much!

 

if i understand wallace correctly, he differentiates between the alaya and the base, and says that to rest in rigpa, one needs to break through the substrate (alaya) into the base beyond it. This is all new to me, and i have been listening a lot while driving, so anyone who understands differently, please do feel encouraged to correct me.

 

can you explain why some people explain rigpa/vidya as a state of being, and some as the knowledge which arises from teh natural state?

 

thank you so much, that post was really helpful

[C T]

.

Edited December 16, 2012 by C T

[Creation]

if i understand wallace correctly, he differentiates between the alaya and the base, and says that to rest in rigpa, one needs to break through the substrate (alaya) into the base beyond it.

Do you know if he uses "alaya" as an abbreviation of alayavijnana, or does he distinguish between these two? In "Stilling the Mind" he emphasized distinguishing alayavijnana and dharamakaya, so maybe he just is using shorter terms for the same concepts?

 

I get the impression that this is nuanced enough for trekcho, but there are further distinctions as you go deeper into Dzogchen. I only mention it because it caused me a lot of confusion to read posts of Malcolm's that distinguished between kun gzhi and gzhi, when every other presentation of Dzogchen I had seen stopped at kun gzhi. I have seen others on the web wonder about this distinction as well. Malcolm mentioned that it was relevant for togel.

 

can you explain why some people explain rigpa/vidya as a state of being, and some as the knowledge which arises from teh natural state?

No, I don't know the first thing about rigpa.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Creation

[C T]

Hi CT

I don't think the conceptual mind is the opposite of the state of rigpa.

 

I think there is slight misinterpretation of this concept which has been proliferated by various teachings. It is a subtle distinction but it has led to people thinking that the "gap between thoughts" is rigpa. Granted, rigpa is inherent in all states of mind, but it is not the "gap between thoughts". It is the gap between occurences of the conceptual mind. I wouldn't even call it a gap.

 

This main misinterpretation is found in various teachings. They say, "watch your thoughts". At some point you will notice that there is no thought. That gap between thoughts is it. Pure awareness. But what they don't say in the instructions is that if you come to a point where you do not notice any thoughts (and you are not simply focusing on the space into which the thought dissolved), try expanding your scope or field of awareness. Because, you might succeed in clearing a little space in which no thoughts arise, but if you expand your scope or field of awareness, make it larger and more subtle, you will discover hundreds or thousands of thoughts that you wern't aware of in your subconscious. If you grasp or avert those, you are caught and you are not in the state rigpa.

 

If, on the other hand, you can maintain a state of not grasping or averting those hundreds or thousands of thoughts, the thoughts arise and pass more quickly. It looks like you are viewing hundreds of colored visions go whizzing by. Eventually, the whole event of arising and passing shuts off if you do not grasp or avert, and the coarse mind dissolves into the substrate consciousness. But that isn't even rigpa. In order to get to rigpa (if i can use those crude terms), one has to go beyond the substrate consciousness (the ground of nirvana and samsara) right down to Primordial Ground. And even that idea isn't quite correct because it is still dualistic to speak of it in this way.

 

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen

 

 

That last part about "which cannot be found by searching" hits me in the head like a hammer. You see, I was reading Franklin Merrill-Wolff's book called "Experience and Philosophy" in the park one day. And, he said the same thing. He said, that realization is very simple. It is so simple, in fact that everyone misses it. They miss it by searching for it.

 

So, after reading that, I sat up straight and made an effort not to search for anything. Suddenly, a waterous-clear-light presence revealed itself to me. It was clear like crystal, and filled with love/bliss/joy. I was astounded and mesmerized. It was physically situation between the "I" in the head and the outer visual field. The silence and taste of it only lasted for a few seconds because the conceptual mind, like a massive billowing cloud of thoughts, kept trying to erupt from the back, causing the state to disappear. It was yelling out thoughts like "this is it!", "you have finally found it", "you have discovered the truth", "It won't last".. I fought real hard to strike down that cloud of thoughts but with all my efforts could not keep it at bay. I did get back into the state a few minutes later by relaxing into it, but again it didn't last long and then it went away and I can't seem to get back to it.

 

The state was like looking into the face of God. There was no me or God (whatever that was), there was just a "we". So much love and bliss, clarity and light, shine and presence. At that point, I started to hate the conceptual mind. I started to realize that the conceptual mind is one of the veils (or the veil) that prevents us from seeing the truth of reality.

 

Whether or not that state was rigpa, I do not know because Nobody has shown me rigpa and put a label on it. But yes, I would love for that state to grow and become permanent. But there is no comparison between that state and the "gap between thoughts".

 

So, perhaps I am being picky, very picky here. But if people would realize that the absence of thoughts is a sign of progress on the path and keep pursuing that, by expanding the space of awareness, they might eventually get to the point where they truly get deeper.

 

Thanks for taking a sincere interest the subject and contributing your knowledge.

 

TI

 

'Resting in the gap' is the precursor to recognizing effulgent rigpa. Recognizing effulgent rigpa leads to recognizing essence rigpa. In itself its not rigpa per se, but training in that leads to complete fruition.

 

Dzogchen practitioners call this phase 'recognizing the alaya for habits'.

 

Its the preliminary 'training ground' for rigpa to mature. To say its not rigpa is like saying primary education is not real education.

[Jeff]

 

 

thats what im saying, its not dzogchen.

 

those views aren't taught anywhere else but your "personal experience". they arent recognized views. thats all.

 

Fair enough. I am just comparing and going off the written words of CNN.

 

So you are saying there is no mind to mind transmission as CNN's book describes in Dzogchen? Or, are you saying that there are no astral planes? Where do you think I am wrong about Dzogchen?

 

[konchog uma]

Do you know if he uses "alaya" as an abbreviation of alayavijnana, or does he distinguish between these two? In "Stilling the Mind" he emphasized distinguishing alayavijnana and dharamakaya, so maybe he just is using shorter terms for the same concepts?

 

I get the impression that this is nuanced enough for trekcho, but there are further distinctions as you go deeper into Dzogchen. I only mention it because it caused me a lot of confusion to read posts of Malcolm's that distinguished between kun gzhi and gzhi, when every other presentation of Dzogchen I had seen stopped at kun gzhi. I have seen others on the web wonder about this distinction as well. Malcolm mentioned that it was relevant for togel.

 

 

No, I don't know the first thing about rigpa.

 

i would have to go back and listen, he mostly uses english terminology and calls it the substrate or sometimes, jokingly, the slush.

 

thanks again and thanks for the honest about rigpa... i hope someone else can clarify

[konchog uma]

Fair enough. I am just comparing and going off the written words of CNN.

 

So you are saying there is no mind to mind transmission as CNN's book describes in Dzogchen? Or, are you saying that there are no astral planes? Where do you think I am wrong about Dzogchen?

 

 

first of all, please show me where the written words of Norbu Rinpoche validate this:

 

How it is experienced is dependent on the "clarity" of the recieving person. Most do not have the capacity to consciously percieve the transmission, so the mind unconsciously translates it into a dream. Someone with greater clarity would experience seeing (and possibly hearing) the guru in deep consciousness (or astral). Someone with high clarity would directly receive the knowledge (but would not see anything). In general, those with high levels of clarity do not dream (they have made the unconscious conscious).

 

If one does not "receive" transmission, it is either because they have not yet reached the clarity to do so, or the "transmitter" is not yet a true master, and only a teacher.

 

specifically the part about the mind of the recipient translating direct transmission into a dream or astral experience.. but Especially about people of high consciousness not dreaming.

 

that is the part i contest, and if you can back it up, my point is moot.

[C T]

 

specifically the part about the mind of the recipient translating direct transmission into a dream or astral experience.. but Especially about people of high consciousness not dreaming.

 

that is the part i contest, and if you can back it up, my point is moot.

 

Apologies for butting in, Anamatva.

 

I remember attending one teaching where it was said that realized beings no longer have dreams because their wakeful quality has shattered/permeated the separation between the waking and dreaming states. I cant remember exactly who the teacher was, nonetheless....

 

Tulku Urgyen commented thus: "The buddhas and bodhisattvas are like people who have never fallen asleep and therefore are not dreaming, while sentient beings, due to ignorance, have fallen asleep and are dreaming. Buddhas exist in the primordial state of enlightenment, a state that is completely undeluded. This state moreover is endowed with all the qualities and free from all defects. Cut through your daytime confusion, and the double delusion of dreaming atop deluded samsaric existence ceases as well."

 

Perhaps Jeff had also heard something along these lines which would explain why he made that comment.

 

Cant comment on the astral experience part though.

Edited December 16, 2012 by C T

[konchog uma]

awesome, thanks CT

 

like i have said, my understanding is very poor. My meditations are stable and generally above average, but my knowledge of texts and terminologies is below average. So if there is verification for that, then what i said is moot. I would be glad to be shown to be incorrect, happier in many ways than to be right in this case.

[RongzomFan]

Since TI is whipping out the Christian parables, here is one:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_blind_leading_the_blind

[Jeff]

 

first of all, please show me where the written words of Norbu Rinpoche validate this:

 

specifically the part about the mind of the recipient translating direct transmission into a dream or astral experience.. but Especially about people of high consciousness not dreaming.

 

that is the part i contest, and if you can back it up, my point is moot.

 

On not dreaming, I have not specifically read this in CNN's books, but as CT says, I thought it was common knowledge. Dreams are normally based on our unconscious. A big part of any path is effectively pulling the unconscious "into" the conscious. With the integration, one has control over their sleep. I can consciously control whether I dream or not. The body sleeps, but the mind resides in silence. But, I will look for specific CNN comments around it, if I find any I will get back to you.

 

Regarding dreams in general, CNN tells many stories about insights coming from dreams of primordial Buddhas in "The Supreme Source", also as said by others, Dream yoga is part of Dzogchen. Here is an example from "The Supreme Source"...

 

In the story of Garab Djorie...

 

"he had marvelous dreams that predicted the appearance of the teaching "beyond effort"... When the king of the devas came to know this, he emplored the Buddhas to promulgate the teaching... From his heart Vajrasattva emanated Vajrapani... "

 

Notice also the heart emanation point (for Alwayson).

 

But, your point is valid, at this point I do not have any direct quotes for CNN directly referencing the dream connection. I was just assuming since the other two primordial paths use/experience it. If I find specific quotes detailing it, I will pass them on.

 

 

P.s. CT your wise words are always appreciated (no butting in )

Edited December 17, 2012 by Jeff

[RongzomFan]

A good use for bullshit is to compact them tightly into bricks, bake them in the oven and then build a wall, or house out of them.

 

You must be living in a large mansion.

[Tibetan_Ice]

'Resting in the gap' is the precursor to recognizing effulgent rigpa. Recognizing effulgent rigpa leads to recognizing essence rigpa. In itself its not rigpa per se, but training in that leads to complete fruition.

 

Dzogchen practitioners call this phase 'recognizing the alaya for habits'.

 

Its the preliminary 'training ground' for rigpa to mature. To say its not rigpa is like saying primary education is not real education.

 

Hi C T

I've been looking at your reference to "recognizing the alaya for habits". It is from the Berzin Archives.

I get a really bad feeling from reading his interpretation of Dzogchen. It is so complex and contains so many steps that it does not seem like even Dzogchen to me. I mean, he talks about anuyoga, mantra repetition, even Buddha figures in Mahayoga..

Dzogchen is the realization that everything dissolves on it's own accord by just letting it be. You don't need to do mantra repetition in order to recognize that aspect. So why does he describe an obstacle course of practices that you have to do? The dissolution is not dependant on previous practices, as he would lead you to believe.

 

 

For example:

http://www.berzinarc...itation_02.html

 

 

We need to go deeper and subtler, so that we experience and recognize a cognitive inbetween space that has deep awareness of its own two-truth nature. If we succeed, the factor of dumbfoundedness stops accompanying our meditation and the alaya for habits becomes rigpa. Because of having "greased" the pathways of our energy-channels with previous anuyoga practice and synchronized the winds with mantra recitation, then in the process of this meditation, all grosser levels of mental activity - and specifically the alaya for habits - automatically dissolve.

 

...

Then, as the result of practice with Buddha-figures in mahayoga, effulgent rigpa gives rise to and cognizes itself as a rainbow body (' ja'-lus), rather than with ordinary aggregates. Thus, on the leap-ahead stage (thod-rgal) - equivalent to the path of accustoming (sgom-lam, path of meditation) - through four stages, effulgent rigpa becomes more prominent while simultaneously maintaining prominent essence rigpa.

 

Maybe you could explain that to me..

 

TI

Edited December 17, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice