Entering the Void

[C T]

 

 

I am Maharaja!

Meditating on mind, I have transcended the object of meditation.

Scrutinizing the mind, one sees nothing.

But precisely perceiving this "nothing to see" is "seeing".

Meditating means not being distracted from the meaning of

"nothing to see"! "

 

Peace.

 

 

I am wondering, when he (the maharaja) made that triumphant declaration, whether he was breathing thru his left or right nostril at that time.

 

btw, the initial dawn of the realization of voidness does not require the energy winds to be fully dissolved at the heart chakra. All that is needed is for the winds to enter the central channels, this alone is enough to arouse palpable and actual experience of the true nature of union of the relative and absolute truths of reality.

 

just saying.

[Jeff]

I am wondering, when he (the maharaja) made that triumphant declaration, whether he was breathing thru his left or right nostril at that time.

 

btw, the initial dawn of the realization of voidness does not require the energy winds to be fully dissolved at the heart chakra. All that is needed is for the winds to enter the central channels, this alone is enough to arouse palpable and actual experience of the true nature of union of the relative and absolute truths of reality.

 

just saying.

 

Very interesting (and good) point regarding the winds, but I would argue that it is only like first finding the "gap" between thoughts. An actual experience, but not "enlightenment".

 

 

(p.s. Was he even breathing...? )

Edited November 28, 2012 by Jeff

[C T]

Also, please, try not to speculate on the experiences of entering the void.

 

Tantric practitioners spend years mastering the path, in a very arduous and systematic way, and those who reach fruition do so only with a teacher guide.

 

Simply put, there are so many levels one has to work upon, each more refined than previous. Starting from kriya right up to atiyoga, one may be required to devote perhaps 3 or 4 three-year retreats before any semblance of stability is felt.

 

Some practitioners may indeed spend years doing basic practices just to come to a decision whether they are more suited to a mother or father-style tantric path, and then only proceed accordingly.

 

In summation, again, i say, dont treat the term 'entering the Void' too lightly.

 

It has nothing to do with specks of blissful experiences one acquires thru sheer willpower and/or coincidental meditative explorations.

[Ish]

Also, please, try not to speculate on the experiences of entering the void.

 

Tantric practitioners spend years mastering the path, in a very arduous and systematic way, and those who reach fruition do so only with a teacher guide.

 

Simply put, there are so many levels one has to work upon, each more refined than previous. Starting from kriya right up to atiyoga, one may be required to devote perhaps 3 or 4 three-year retreats before any semblance of stability is felt.

 

Some practitioners may indeed spend years doing basic practices just to come to a decision whether they are more suited to a mother or father-style tantric path, and then only proceed accordingly.

 

In summation, again, i say, dont treat the term 'entering the Void' too lightly.

 

It has nothing to do with specks of blissful experiences one acquires thru sheer willpower and/or coincidental meditative explorations.

 

Hi CT, can you tell me what's your opinion on starting right away with Atiyoga?

From my research this is possible due to direct transmission from the guru, but i'd like to know your opinion.

[C T]

Hi CT, can you tell me what's your opinion on starting right away with Atiyoga?

From my research this is possible due to direct transmission from the guru, but i'd like to know your opinion.

 

Hi Ish,

 

I'd be interested to learn more of the research you did, or are still doing.

 

According to the tradition that i come from (and in most other buddhist schools, afaik), starting from atiyoga is not advised. Even recognized tulkus and incarnations of high lamas have to be gradually led and taught in line with the individual's potential. Given too much, the tendency to flounder becomes very possible; too little, and people lose interest.

 

My teacher always said to stick to basic practices for many years. Ngondro, for example. Basic does not mean slow. It means thorough. Then one's footing becomes assured and fruition imminent when the ground is well-prepared.

 

The wonderful practice of Ngondro in itself contains all the secrets leading to the highest release.

[Jeff]

Hi Ish,

 

I'd be interested to learn more of the research you did, or are still doing.

 

According to the tradition that i come from (and in most other buddhist schools, afaik), starting from atiyoga is not advised. Even recognized tulkus and incarnations of high lamas have to be gradually led and taught in line with the individual's potential. Given too much, the tendency to flounder becomes very possible; too little, and people lose interest.

 

My teacher always said to stick to basic practices for many years. Ngondro, for example. Basic does not mean slow. It means thorough. Then one's footing becomes assured and fruition imminent when the ground is well-prepared.

 

The wonderful practice of Ngondro in itself contains all the secrets leading to the highest release.

 

Do you believe that is because one may not have the necessary clarity of mind to "receive" the transmissions of Atiyoga?

 

[Ish]

Hi Ish,

 

I'd be interested to learn more of the research you did, or are still doing.

 

According to the tradition that i come from (and in most other buddhist schools, afaik), starting from atiyoga is not advised. Even recognized tulkus and incarnations of high lamas have to be gradually led and taught in line with the individual's potential. Given too much, the tendency to flounder becomes very possible; too little, and people lose interest.

 

My teacher always said to stick to basic practices for many years. Ngondro, for example. Basic does not mean slow. It means thorough. Then one's footing becomes assured and fruition imminent when the ground is well-prepared.

 

The wonderful practice of Ngondro in itself contains all the secrets leading to the highest release.

 

Most recently I've read "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" and "The Crystal and the Way of Light", also watched videos of Dzogchen masters teachings.

More or less the Dzogchen only begins when one can identify and abide in the natural state which is transmitted by the Guru, once you can do this that is basically all you need to practice.

I understand that Ngondro, as you said, can lead to this natural state - a self initiation of sorts.

 

Similar thought to Jeff, i'm also wondering that without the preliminary practices, actually getting the natural state from a transmission would be quite uncommon?

 

 

Does your master openly teach CT? I'm interested in any opportunities to learn with a Dzogchen master.

 

 

 

P.S. oops just realised i'm kind of derailing your thread Adept will take it to PM for any further discussions

Edited November 28, 2012 by Ish

[Jeff]

Most recently I've read "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" and "The Crystal and the Way of Light", also watched videos of Dzogchen masters teachings.

More or less the Dzogchen only begins when one can identify and abide in the natural state which is transmitted by the Guru, once you can do this that is basically all you need to practice.

I understand that Ngondro, as you said, can lead to this natural state - a self initiation of sorts.

 

Similar thought to Jeff, i'm also wondering that without the preliminary practices, actually getting the natural state from a transmission would be quite uncommon?

 

 

Hi Ish,

 

CNN speaks directly on this point...

 

"To receive this type of transmission, it is therefore necessary to have the capacity to perceive the subtle dimension of light."

 

 

[Ish]

Hi Ish,

 

CNN speaks directly on this point...

 

"To receive this type of transmission, it is therefore necessary to have the capacity to perceive the subtle dimension of light."

 

 

 

Thanks Jeff that's pretty interesting. There are a few ways one could interpret the meaning of that statement, what do you make of "the subtle dimension of light"? Seeing this externally or perhaps in meditation?

 

I'll be checking out more of Norbu Rinpoche's teachings in the meantime.

[Jeff]

Thanks Jeff that's pretty interesting. There are a few ways one could interpret the meaning of that statement, what do you make of "the subtle dimension of light"? Seeing this externally or perhaps in meditation?

 

I'll be checking out more of Norbu Rinpoche's teachings in the meantime.

 

Sorry, I should have given you the full quote to put it in full context, but I had to type it by hand. In that paragraph, he is describes..

 

"The Tantras are teachings based on the knowledge and application of energy. Their origin is not to be found in the oral teachings of a master,..."

 

It is from "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by CNN. It is an excellent overview book on Dzogchen.

 

As to externally or meditation... with a calm mind... Is there a difference...?

 

[Ish]

Sorry, I should have given you the full quote to put it in full context, but I had to type it by hand. In that paragraph, he is describes..

 

"The Tantras are teachings based on the knowledge and application of energy. Their origin is not to be found in the oral teachings of a master,..."

 

It is from "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by CNN. It is an excellent overview book on Dzogchen.

 

As to externally or meditation... with a calm mind... Is there a difference...?

 

 

Thanks.

Hehe true there isn't. I think i understand now.

[idiot_stimpy]

Can someone define 'light'?

[Jeff]

Can someone define 'light'?

 

This will probably start a debate, but in this context "light" means...

 

"is the visible aspect of energy, energy still in a phase prior to its assuming any specific form" Chogyal Namkai Norbu

 

It can also be described as percieving the pre-intent (gap) to a thought. (But, this is a non-Dzogchen description).

 

[Fū Yue]

Can someone define 'light'?

 

But then it would be heavy...

[C T]

Do you believe that is because one may not have the necessary clarity of mind to "receive" the transmissions of Atiyoga?

 

 

Lots and lots of people have access to transmissions nowadays. Its so common for practitioners to 'collect' them as if collecting medals of valor . I dont think its necessary for one to have clarity to receive transmissions, but its certainly crucial to have such clarity in order to put in place what follows after the empowerment.

 

Meditation is easy... what happens after its done is the challenge, isnt that so?

[C T]

Most recently I've read "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" and "The Crystal and the Way of Light", also watched videos of Dzogchen masters teachings.

More or less the Dzogchen only begins when one can identify and abide in the natural state which is transmitted by the Guru, once you can do this that is basically all you need to practice.

I understand that Ngondro, as you said, can lead to this natural state - a self initiation of sorts.

 

Similar thought to Jeff, i'm also wondering that without the preliminary practices, actually getting the natural state from a transmission would be quite uncommon?

 

 

Does your master openly teach CT? I'm interested in any opportunities to learn with a Dzogchen master.

 

 

 

P.S. oops just realised i'm kind of derailing your thread Adept will take it to PM for any further discussions

 

Yes, apologies to Adept for veering.

 

As far as i'm aware, authentic masters do not initiate students who have not done the prelims (meaning, they have not accumulated enough virtues). Even if they are initiated, the density of the untrained mind will simply cloud over any merit the teacher bestows, and within a short spell of time, the 'student' returns to old habitual tendencies.

[deci belle]

"the subtle dimension of light"

 

Because dzogchen is a stageless teaching, my view of the subtle dimension of light is that one naturally sees the subtle aspect (not that it is "light") in everyday ordinary situations because the light itself is undifferentiated. Otherwise, subtle, in terms of non-ordinary states, would not be so subtle— or so useful, non?

 

I posted earlier, and yes, the thread has very much veered from its original point.

 

I know Dzogchen is a very culturally grounded teaching and xenophobic in its own characteristically voluptuous guru/transmission tradition, but the transmission is to give the student a taste of the real aspect, so the light is thenceforth recognizable and practice is stronger, surer and quicker and the student is able to then exercise the Dharma eye in actual situations (of course always depends on the student).

 

I hope no one would mind if I would like to make the point that the light is naturally undifferentiated from the temporal manifestation and that references to it are only in terms of one's adapting to the real aspect of any given situation~ hence, the subtlety of the light. Otherwise, what would be the point of seeing "light" with one's physical eyes? What wouldn't be light?!!

 

 

 

ed note: add the word "it" in the second sentence

Edited November 29, 2012 by deci belle

[Jeff]

 

 

Lots and lots of people have access to transmissions nowadays. Its so common for practitioners to 'collect' them as if collecting medals of valor . I dont think its necessary for one to have clarity to receive transmissions, but its certainly crucial to have such clarity in order to put in place what follows after the empowerment.

 

Meditation is easy... what happens after its done is the challenge, isnt that so?

 

Very true.

 

[MERCELESS ONE]

Greetings.

 

In my meditations over the years, I've had glimpses of the void, or what you could also call the great stillness, peace, bliss, no-thingness or whatever. Just little bits here and there. But recently, EVERY time I meditate, I fall into a wonderful state which lasts for quite a while.

Some of the sensations/feelings :

 

I can't feel my body at all. It feels as if I'm just a floating consciousness.

I can't detect any breathing.

I can't feel a pulse/heartbeat.

I don't even know that I have a body or a mind.

Extreme peace, serenity, calmness and bliss.

 

I have tried various types of meditations but the one I've come back to and stuck with has been awareness of my breathing. Not focussing on a particular point like the dantian or the third eye or the nose, but just on the mechanism of breathing, as a whole.

 

Is it that the simplest meditations, when pursued and practiced diligently and regularly, have the greatest benefit ?

have you ever decended into the void? its awesome go through the darknes and into the light! not metaphorical. literal! while in this state decend into the void and find the light at the bottom of the void! i meant to post this a day or two ago, but got sidetracked. its best if you find the void during astral projection, then decend through it. also to be able to peer into the void means your third eye is open!

[adept]

Please carry on with the discussion. I don't see it as derailing but more of a progression. It's taken an interesting turn and I'd love to read more.

[3bob]

There is a zone, call it no souls zone, kind of like no mans land. That is not "it" to me, for the Self is free of such a zone and of nothing yet it can be alluded to as no-thing.

[idiot_stimpy]

"is the visible aspect of energy, energy still in a phase prior to its assuming any specific form" Chogyal Namkai Norbu

 

 

If I understand this rightly, it is that light before it has been objectified and attributed a label by the mind through thought projection.

 

 

 

Does anyone have any experience with uniting the void with compassion?

 

Do the buddhists call this, uniting emptiness and wisdom?

[Shagrath]

Does anyone have any experience with uniting the void with compassion?

 

Yes.

 

In our western world names for emotions compassion is derives from Absolute Love. But Buddhist call Absolute Love Compassion. Absolute Love = Absolute Knowledge = Consciousness of Emptiness our true state of Being. When you are in conscious state of emptiness your mind starts to unify (stops functioning through its partial parts) and you see everything as One. There is no distinction between you and entire Universe. You see yourself in others and other in you.

[idiot_stimpy]

I'm just wondering if this has any correlation with the void united with compassion and the void without, and hatching the positive immortal fetus and hatching the negative immortal fetus.

[Shagrath]

I'm just wondering if this has any correlation with the void united with compassion and the void without, and hatching the positive immortal fetus and hatching the negative immortal fetus.

 

I really don't know. I am not a big fan of taoistic descriptions because they are way too complicated for me. Sometimes I have a feeling that even they don't know what they are talking about I like very much more simplistic views like Theravada Buddhism or Advaita Vedandta Hinduism. Neither Buddha, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Meher Baba, Padre Pie, etc never talked about any fetuses and yet they all were awakened and aware of illusion and had compassion.