External + Internal Martial Arts

[Aetherous]

Was trying to find a martial art thread to put this video. I suppose this one will do. This girl is quite impressive (this is external MA, and questionable whether it's really MA or just MA style moves). Don't mind the beginning, where it seems like it will just be a "watch me do the splits" video...it gets legit later on.

 

http://thechive.com/2012/12/05/i-felt-uninspired-this-morning-and-then-i-saw-this-girl-video/

[GreytoWhite]

Re: Chloe Bruce from turtle shell's post

 

She is a Tang Soo Do practitioner from her site. It is a Korean style which focuses on high kicks not known for being "internal" but it's all about the practitioner.

 

i will give an example:

the boxer known as jack dempsey certainly displayed an internal game.

did he get it from internal training or did he get it from external practices?

that idk. but it is obvious he was issuing internal force with his punches

 

ed> there was alot of coiling /un-coiling and yin/yang going on with dempsey

 

Yes, Jack Dempsey had a base of hard labor and a very specific strength training program. Light weights, high repetitions, there were grips in his light barbells like Eugen Sandow. The footwork and his description of some punches are nearly identical to xingyi. Did he classify this as internal or external? No, it was just a complete method of training.

 

http://archive.org/details/ChampionshipFighting

 

Another good resource are Eugen Sandow's books.

 

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/sandowindex.htm

 

Regarding Systema I would not exclude it from an internal classification. There are extensive breathwork aspects to the training including percentage breathing, natural breathing, and breath retention. The Systema folks operate around the idea of natural movement, absorption and redirection of force as well as using the spine as a central axis. They fight regularly and even offer conditioning seminars as well. There is focus on the middle dantian as the source of movement as well as principled movement versus technique. Sounds rather "internal" to me even if they have some alternate focus.

 

In previous generations of Chinese martial arts the breathwork was more focused on even in the "external" arts. The very silly distinction did not really come into play until Sun Lutang started drawing parallels between bagua, taiji, and xingyi and has been overblown. Even in Shaolin which is held up to be the main example of external there are some extensive internal training aspects.

 

 

[GreytoWhite]

[raimonio]

I have never seen an internal martial arts master demonstrate his ability in a real situation and never heard anyone seen it, not on youtube, not in real life, not anywhere.. anyone?

 

Has anyone here who has practiced internal arts for a long time ever been in a ring with a MMA or Boxer guy who trained for the ring for many years? Have you truly made it work? Can you easily floor these guys?

 

On second thought had to edit the rant, I'm all for believing this, would be nice to have some proof though

Edited December 6, 2012 by raimonio

[MERCELESS ONE]

Options are

 

Traditional Korean Karate

Wing Chun

Sakura Hana Ryu

Muay Tai

Aikido

 

+ The Australian Academy of Tai Chi

 

I would like to get into Kyudo I think

 

 

Or Tai Chi ...

 

All speculation at present hah...

 

Systema is still of interest

 

MA isn't all that popular where I live

 

I'll just continue with physical / mental exercise

 

I gather your practice consists of Mo Pai Neikung and?

 

are you working toward the no contact aspect demonstated in the video above (whether that demonstration is authentic or not) or more in line with the feats of Shaolin monks?

 

 

why not try them all? theres somthing to be learned from all the martial arts. find one that you like alot, and you will only know that by practicing it, whatever it may be, then add elements of other martial arts to it. if you so desire!

[i am]

I have never seen an internal martial arts master demonstrate his ability in a real situation and never heard anyone seen it, not on youtube, not in real life, not anywhere.. anyone?

 

Has anyone here who has practiced internal arts for a long time ever been in a ring with a MMA or Boxer guy who trained for the ring for many years? Have you truly made it work? Can you easily floor these guys?

 

On second thought had to edit the rant, I'm all for believing this, would be nice to have some proof though

 

What exactly are you asking for? Proof that somebody can shoot invisible qi balls at you from 10 feet away, or that they can make you drop by manipulating your qi without even touching you?

 

Or proof that someone who is well trained in internal arts will have an advantage over a purely external fighter?

 

Just trying to figure out if you're stuck on internal arts as being a mythical, magical thing, or if you understand what's really meant by internal.

[GreytoWhite]

White Wolf if you want to learn to fight functionally I'd say go for Muay Thai and add some taiji in later.

[GrandmasterP]

We do Zen Archery.

That's an internal martial art.

[i am]

I completely understand the idea that all this leaning of Asian forms, doing flashy stuff, being really flexible and able to jump around and do high kicks, is not in any way, necessarily, related to actual fighting skill. And a lot of what kids are taught, in the US anyways, as far as martial arts, is more like dance or ballet with a little punching and grunting thrown in.

 

But to read one of the first posts on page one about preffering to take on a bagua or taiji fighter before a western boxer...I understand if you haven't had exposure to real bagua or taiji fighters. But MAN would you regret that decision, if you ever had to make it, and fought a bad a** bagua guy.

 

We aren't talking about a bunch of hard punches to the face and body like a western fight. We're talking snapped limbs, being more or less pile-drived, thrown up in the air, slammed down head first, internal damage. A Chinese "street fighter" in the bagua style is nothing like some kid you see doing a fancy form.

[templetao]

One thing people dont understand is that you train your body to be strong in the ma because your internal power represents your vitality so you train your body so during fighting your level of vitality doesnt go down and your internal power remains strong.

Edited December 6, 2012 by templetao

[GrandmasterP]

I did MA from being 9 , started with judo and stuck to that til army then did Greco Roman wrestling , then Pakua (I know but that's what it still says on the sign over the door). Then modern arnis and Pakua. Then arthritis and sod all for two years then TaiChi then QiGong. The QiGong got me mobile where the TaiChi didn't cos I could not move my legs and do it properly.

I didn't do anything internal at all when I was fighting, we didn't back then.

Reckon if I had have done I coulda been a contender for sure.

Internal lends power to external forms. The amazing thing about internal is that even if the external body is a bit fecked as mine was, if you cultivate regularly you become so much better, more supple and (touching wood) pain-free without medication.

[Aetherous]

But to read one of the first posts on page one about preffering to take on a bagua or taiji fighter before a western boxer...I understand if you haven't had exposure to real bagua or taiji fighters. But MAN would you regret that decision, if you ever had to make it, and fought a bad a** bagua guy.

 

Nonsense.

[i am]

Aah forget it.

Edited December 6, 2012 by i am

[i am]

 

 

Nonsense.

 

 

Fair enough. And you know this because..?

[Aetherous]

People more in the "scene" and more experienced than myself have probably seen the proof. But until we get a bagua or taiji master in the ring with a western, external fighter to do some honest moderate impact sparring, there's really no reason to talk about it anymore.

 

Agreed.

 

(this was in his post before it was edited...)

Edited December 6, 2012 by turtle shell

[i am]

Great.

 

In the end, most of us don't know enough to know. Myself especially. I'm endlessly facinated with and impressed/awed by the soft martial arts.

 

But I'm no fighter. Never have been and never will be, short of some apocolyptic change of events. So I'll never really know.

 

And I really like you all. So I'm done.

[i am]

Agreed.

 

(this was in his post before it was edited...)

 

Yeah sorry I cut the post out from under you. Nothing in there I don't wish for the public to see, I just feel like being done. I'm glad you pulled out what you did, as it was really the only part worth keeping.

[MERCELESS ONE]

there is no such thing as internal or external! when you think like this you miss the point. ive seen muay thai fighers practice their forms slow and fluidly to learn and develop power, internal power from a muay thai form! ive seen tai chi and bagua fighers strike wooden poles to develop harder fists and shattering power, bagua fighers that hold up jugs of water during circle walking to develop power and strength. ive also seen tai chi fighters that routinly go throug tough iron body training to be able to take punishing blows. ask yourself why? in essence there is no devision of hard or soft except when you decide to be one or the other. and if you are talking about internal energy then you are talking about somthing different all together. because it doesent matter if you prefer hard or soft, energy still flows! hopfully some day this will be understood!

[PLB]

Like any skill, fighting requires a lot of fighting to get better at it. But fighting is different than other arts because it can get you killed or severely injured when you fail where failure in other disciplines usually is less fatal. Training to fight is itself an acceptance of one's own death on many levels.

Sparring can be good training for fighting but any set of constraints that turns war into sport makes any discussion of what is more deadly moot. I have pushed with some guys who I could beat up in a boxing ring, no problem. They would end me in thirty seconds in a real fight. There is only one way to prove that kind of statement. I am good with just sort of being really sure about it.

 

When I was much younger, I sparred with a lot of people and got hurt on a regular basis. No problem, nothing permanent. I was lucky. Then I sparred with someone who gently touched my ribs with Lady's Hand. I collapsed and had difficulty breathing for several minutes. My adversary apoligized and said he meant to only give me a small taste of the stuff. I realized at that moment how far away I was from whatever it was that hit me. I became less interested in fighting and more interested in that stuff.

[raimonio]

What exactly are you asking for? Proof that somebody can shoot invisible qi balls at you from 10 feet away, or that they can make you drop by manipulating your qi without even touching you?

 

Or proof that someone who is well trained in internal arts will have an advantage over a purely external fighter?

 

Just trying to figure out if you're stuck on internal arts as being a mythical, magical thing, or if you understand what's really meant by internal.

 

Well for me its all the same whether you shoot Qi balls out of your arse or just hit your opponents with fists. What I am asking is whether anyone has actually seen an internal martial artist mop the floor with a MMA guy like you claimed they would. Have you seen that happen? Has anyone?

[i am]

Just to address your question, no. I don't watch MMA (it does nothing for me and glorifies violence and idolizes violent people).

 

I also haven't seen an MMA guy mop the floor with a good internal martial artist.

 

So all I'm going on is my exposure to each "fighting style". Taking into account what merciless one said, in my opinion, those who practice their art internally/softly are superior fighters.

 

Beyond that, the vast majority of all the discussion I've seen on this topic all over the internet, is that it's just people from both sides talking about stuff they don't know about. People who don't study martial arts but watch MMA think MMA guys are the most badass humans on the earth, and Chinese martial arts are just "showy". Bagua, Taiji and Xingyi students think MMA is glorified boxing, with so many "rules" that you can't compare it to a real fight (you aren't allowed to rip someone's skin off, snap limbs, break necks, destroy internal organs, which is the majority of what you train in Chinese arts...they aren't sport, they aren't for playing around), and that internal training gives you something extra. But you could say that if you took the same rules away from an MMA guy, he could do more damage. And the debate goes on and on...

 

Along the same lines...there's a difference between training in external arts, and traing for MMA. External and internal arts are both life & death arts. MMA is not.

 

BUT, I will give you this: those who train for MMA are, quite often, getting more "real" fighting experience than your average Chinese martial art student.

 

My argument is if you take an MMA guy, and a bagua master, mr. bagua cleans up 8 times out of 10. No I can't prove it.

 

You take any MMA guy and put him against your average western bagua student...8 times out of 10, to completely make up some numbers, mr. mma cleans up.

 

In the end, MMA guys are way tougher than I'll ever be. Some of them would do amazing in any street fight. Some may not...

 

My opinion is that training in the soft arts is like the final touch on a hard art that brings you to a different level. Therefore someone who, after training hard arts and becoming a master, moved into the soft arts, would be more badass than any MMA guy.

 

And that for people like me who have no interest in fighting, but love martial arts, the energy work and flow of the internal arts is great. I have no interest in standing in a line of people, in Mabu, throwing punches and grunting. But walking the circle and practicing a taiji form is awesome. Which doesn't help prove my point at all.

 

There. Since I directly asked you a question and you responded, I didn't want to ignore it. Now I'm done, so don't feel snubbed if you respond and get nothing back from me.

[GrandmasterP]

Agreed.

MMA fighters are not to be messed with without either a long sturdy stick or gun of some description.

 

Mind you if they keep on banning moves at the rate they are doing then pretty soon MMA'll be a lot tamer than it once was.

[flowing hands]

there is no such thing as internal or external! when you think like this you miss the point. ive seen muay thai fighers practice their forms slow and fluidly to learn and develop power, internal power from a muay thai form! ive seen tai chi and bagua fighers strike wooden poles to develop harder fists and shattering power, bagua fighers that hold up jugs of water during circle walking to develop power and strength. ive also seen tai chi fighters that routinly go throug tough iron body training to be able to take punishing blows. ask yourself why? in essence there is no devision of hard or soft except when you decide to be one or the other. and if you are talking about internal energy then you are talking about somthing different all together. because it doesent matter if you prefer hard or soft, energy still flows! hopfully some day this will be understood!

 

Good post! Exactly what I have been taught. I learn and practice external/internal arts, there is no difference, one cannot practice one without the other. I once was asked to judge at the national champs. and was thought I did internal arts till I said "no", so they asked me to do the external and the weapons, so afterwards I said I don't do external either. This confounded the whole categorisiing of Chinese Martial arts!

[raimonio]

I agree completely that meditation and all spiritual work would make a hardened MMA guy a tad better, the gained awareness alone would be a massive ally. There is however a clear distinction between a Tai Chi guy and a Boxer for example. Like you said, the energetics and all.

 

It does seem weird at best, from a statistical point of view, that none of the western practitioners of Internal Martial arts seem to have the goods. It is always some master on a mountain, despite the fact that the westeners have practiced for years. It is also, from a statistical point of view, weird at best, that this argument has not made anyone to act if their training actually has worked. I mean winning the argument would be so easy, if you had the goods. Walk into a gym, mop the floor and leave. End of debate.

 

I find it very dubious that there are thousands of practitioners but none of them have the goods and if they do, that none of them does anything? From a statistical point of view the odds of having atleast a few guys willing to end the debate would be 100% with these numbers.

 

I would like to believe, but looking at the situation I find it very hard. With Qi Gong healing for example, there are endless amounts of people saying that it actually cured their disease etc. That is basicly the equilevant of a guy walking into a gym and mopping the floor. If you just stay home and love the energetics, do the movements, it does not mean you have proven it to work as a martial art in a real situation.

[GreytoWhite]

I'd like to see a lot of these MMA guys train with someone like Su Dong Chen or Ark Minoru.