et-thoughts Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 15, 2012 My solution is to look at the paradigms of behavior we have picked up and personally assess as adults , which of them are doing us good and which of them are bad paradigms learned too well. Like approval seeking Stosh Have a nice weekend Nice response Stosh. You have a great weekend too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 17, 2012 Stosh, The issue with the decision making... didn't seem to bother you when you presented the notion of virtue... its something similar with the notion of 'to do what needs be done'... ...note that this is quite different from the subjective notion of "to do what someone 'think' needs be done"... of course 'think' could be 'feels' 'wants' 'believes' 'considers' 'determines' ... To do what needs to be done , from the word "need" still stipulates subjective opinion . If you want to pretend you dont think in wu wei go right ahead and pretend that. Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 17, 2012 Stosh To guarantee that societies and individuals will always come to the same exact collective assessments of what constitutes good ... I use a nifty 'objective' little assessment filter tool to determine what ought to become law or common morality... is 'it' sustainable-desirable-congruent with life ways... The truth passes the test... lies do not pass the test. Healthy ways pass the test... 'vices' to not pass the test... I say that a single voice of truth should suffice to constrain and bind the slanderous deceitful ways... those who are right have the right and duty to constrain those who aren't... Note again how this last statement is an objective one and is quite different from the subjective notion of " those who 'think' they are right"... of course 'think' could be 'feel that' 'desire that' 'believe that' 'consider that' 'determine that' ... Of course the crux of the matter involves determining absolutely who actually happens to be right... There is no right or wrong that is not subjective opinion , There are no such things as right and duty that are not subjective opinion You are pointing at a reasonable arbiter of virtue though , in that virtue would be in sustainable life ways. But the reason why folks lie , have anger, hate, forget things, and have vices. is because there is adaptive advantage in having those traits. That is fodder for many threads, and I figure you disagree enough on that to require long discussions. We can do that when it arises , but this was about approval seeking and wu wei so we should probably let that discussion resume , Yes? Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) ... but this was about approval seeking and wu wei so we should probably let that discussion resume , Yes? Stosh Good idea. And besides all that other stuff, in the pure state of wu wei there is only the objective reality - "What is" - without subjective valuations or judgements. (Should I say "Beyond good and evil"?) Edited September 17, 2012 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 17, 2012 Good idea. And besides all that other stuff, in the pure state of wu wei there is only the objective reality - "What is" - without subjective valuations or judgements. (Should I say "Beyond good and evil"?) Im not even sure there is a "state of wu wei" that a person can be in. Right now Im thinking that wu wei clearly looked at , is just a term used in a much longer discussion on virtues , and is used as a general label for behaviors that are consistant with the description. I use the term too , but I dont think its some altered state of awareness. But suspending that issue for the time being , yes the term 'beyond good and evil' seems an appropriate one (although I have not read the book.) Making value judgements generally doesnt lead to dispassion Dispassion helps a person find acceptance And If there is a wu wei state its going to lie in acceptance just as Gotama B. suggested ... We tend to make ourselves unhappy and dissatisfied the remedy , is to stop doing that. Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted September 17, 2012 "state of wu wei" I use the term too , but I dont think its some altered state of awareness. Stosh I view that as a heightened state of supra awareness, or actually beyond that heightened state of supra awareness. In which without effort, or going with the flow, penetration is made to the heart of the problem. I know I wrote below long long time ago. And flogged it about a few times now, even if in different thread altogether. But I have no reason to changed my mind on what I wrote long time ago. And little to add on what I wrote then. Taoism - Some thoughts on Wu Wei http://www.shanlung.com/oldwuwei.html Just your Taoistic Idiot aka Shanlung 山 龍 Mountain Dragon http://shanlung.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 17, 2012 In a way I see we are continuing the dialogue about approval seeking and wu wei... Its a bit subtle so lets make it a bit more obvious... Each side puts forth notions and beliefs to be considered and cultivated ( a form of validation). Each side stands firm on what they hold while seeking to invite and convince others of the virtue they hold... while at the same time discrediting the others stand... I known for a long time that my position is vehemently rejected because this position invalidates the invalid and validated the valid... this position does not validate other positions as wright when the other position are wrong... Hope you see the approval seeking component here... I stated "Of course the crux of the matter involves determining absolutely who(what) actually happens to be right..." You stated "There is no right or wrong that is not subjective opinion ,"the crux of the matter involves determining absolutely who(what) actually happens to be right..."... I realize that sometimes its irrelevant who and what happens to be right especially when the crux of the matter centers on cultivating other stuff. You figured right... on the notion of what is advantageous there is enough to dialogue quite a bit... Yeah I suppose one could call it validation, but if the intent is really just to spread what we see as true rather than base our esteem of our beliefs of ourselves on the response , validation is just a possible outcome of the discussion. Both of us have views which differ from standard so the liklihood of validation is remote relative to the dissent we are much more likely to see. Discrediting the other side can take two forms , one is to undermine even what is true in order to "win" the other is just to respond against what we consider untrue. Lets hope that we dont get confused and do the first form. I may have not spoken well , the right and wrong that I was referring to is emotionally based judgement about what behaviors are to be encouraged or promoted or justified. There is also incorrect and correct which arent very subjective but do get mixed up with right and wrong. Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 17, 2012 I view that as a heightened state of supra awareness, or actually beyond that heightened state of supra awareness. In which without effort, or going with the flow, penetration is made to the heart of the problem. I know I wrote below long long time ago. And flogged it about a few times now, even if in different thread altogether. But I have no reason to changed my mind on what I wrote long time ago. And little to add on what I wrote then. Taoism - Some thoughts on Wu Wei http://www.shanlung.com/oldwuwei.html Just your Taoistic Idiot aka Shanlung 山 龍 Mountain Dragon http://shanlung.com/ Interesting , Ill have to re read it after work How do you think it might apply to approval seeking ? Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted September 17, 2012 Interesting , Ill have to re read it after work How do you think it might apply to approval seeking ? Stosh That was on "state of wu wei" What about approval seeking? I have not the faintest clue. Just living of life is tough enough. Living life to please people and to seek their approval is far too difficult for me. And why in the world will one need to seek their approval? They never seek my approval to do their things. Surely the converse must be true in that I can, and should do things without the need of their approval. Idiotic Walker lurching and reeling on the Path aka Shanlung 山 龍 Mountain Dragon http://shanlung.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 17, 2012 And If there is a wu wei state its going to lie in acceptance Okay, I must confess, I have a problem with this (acceptance). There have been people in my life who have done things that directly effected me that I simply could not accept. Acceptance is not one of my virtues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 17, 2012 Taoism - Some thoughts on Wu Wei http://www.shanlung.com/oldwuwei.html Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 17, 2012 Okay, I must confess, I have a problem with this (acceptance). There have been people in my life who have done things that directly affected me ,that I simply could not accept. Acceptance is not one of my virtues. Mine either But its something I feel that the Taoist philosophy teaches-offers So it makes more sense for me to pay attention to this thing that doesnt come easy than it would to pay attention to something I had in abundance. Im sure youve heard of spirit guides in North american indian culture .. What Ive read on that, was the spirit guide wasnt supposed to be a characterization of what you were already were prone to,,, but it was a lesson-teacher for those areas where one came up wanting. Also during a persons life , a person might have several spirit guides from which one could learn new stuff. ( whether these things were archetypal imagery or not ,doesnt really make a difference to me) There may just be things you or I may never accept , but to the degree one CAN find acceptance , (at least enough to put stuff behind us) the more benefitted we are. And please understand I am not saying either the word 'condone' or excuse. My personal experience is that its helped me cool my hot head,( but since that really just falls into the realm of testimonial,, I dont expect it would weigh much on the scales of reason.) Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 17, 2012 Just living of life is tough enough. Living life to please people and to seek their approval is far too difficult for me. And why in the world will one need to seek their approval? They never seek my approval to do their things. Surely the converse must be true in that I can, and should do things without the need of their approval. Shanlung 山 龍 Mountain Dragon http://shanlung.com/ Thats a well said point. Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) Shanlung Mountain Dragon "interpreting them with the perceptions of my experiences". -- 'wu wei' (action/nonaction within the Tao) is not the means in itself. It is the end result and the process of 'knowing how to continue' AFTER the knowing of each situation in its entirelty. The usage of our normal perceptions, while useful in understanding a situation, MUST be recognised as imprisoning us in a frame of thought precluding all other possibilities". That would be true if our frame of through didn't allow all other possibilities... sometimes interpreting them with the right perception of experiences enables one to know what be without needing to know what isn't. When you know the truth of the matter, though you may not know the untruth of the matter you will be able to discern it as untruth of the matter based on knowing the truth of the matter... thanks for your composition... If you are saying that ... I paraphrase -without the confused and biased illusions folks ordinarily walk around with one is better able to assess things best - I agree with that heartily (again) Stosh Edited September 17, 2012 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 17, 2012 Mine either But its something I feel that the Taoist philosophy teaches-offers Stosh Yeah. I think this might be an area where "do not harm" might apply. If an act, or even words, by another causes no harm to me or those I care about then I should be able to accept just about anything. But yes, I still have work to do here, work that will likely never be completed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 17, 2012 sometimes I accept the situation as the situation and move on, rather than keep caring its baggage everywhere... each one chooses what to give the people that have directly affected one... (I presume that you implied that the affectation is negative in what you said) ... Of course. It is easy to accept nice people. It is harder to accept scum bags. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) .. Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) . Edited September 18, 2012 by sinansencer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
