Approval seeking and Wu wei

[skydog]

Approval seeking is trying to claim "You" "did" something good or "you" are "good and getting angry about dissaproval is believing someone else "purposely" doesnt like what "you do"

 

But if you look at it from a point of wuwei there was never a you that did something good or bad or is doing something good or bad because everything is nature

[Stosh]

I am just wondering how that statement would read

if the word 'nature' and its variations were dropped from the english lexicon. Any Ideas?

Stosh

[skydog]

Well It would more accurately describe the reality but words kind of point to it.

[Stosh]

Sorry , I dont get your meaning in that post.

Its just that darn word nature which is so ambiguous

Its like this big ol "catch all"

But If thats your fav phrasing ...

Ill just walk away not knowing what the meaning was to you.

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Approval seeking is trying to claim "You" "did" something good or "you" are "good and getting angry about dissaproval is believing someone else "purposely" doesnt like what "you do"

 

But if you look at it from a point of wuwei there was never a you that did something good or bad or is doing something good or bad because everything is nature

Okay. Let me see if I can add some confusion to this.

 

First let me say that "approval seeking" is not wu wei and I will even say that it is not Taoist. This is because doing anything with an alterior motive is ego based and we know that we are supposed to lessen our ego rather than constantly stroke it.

 

If we simply do good because doing good is the right thing to do we will automatically be recognixed for our goodness by those who are good. Screw those who are not good - we don't need their approval.

 

Ah!, the second part. I cannot accept that at all. There really is a you. And there is a me. And there are those who would try to judge us as being good or evil or somewhere in between. Manifest really does really exist.

 

I do, I think, understand what you are pointing at but the picture seemed blurry.

 

I would rather look at it as you are "beyond good and evil", did what needed to be done, accepted full responsibility for your actions and then let it go. After the fact neither praise nor blame can effect what is already history etched in concrete.

 

Yes, using the word "nature" is tricky here. Was the "approval seeking" natural for the person seeking it? I would have to say "yes". Was it the best thing for the person to do at the time? I can't answer that. I will suggest that it only adds confusion to the person's life. Maybe there is an empty spot in the person's essence that is trying to be filled? They need approval because they have been denied approval for so long?

Edited September 6, 2012 by Marblehead

[skydog]

@stosh Basically I was saying that there is one big happening and everything is working harmoniously, nothing is wrong...a flower doesnt need to become perfect or seek approval because it is perfect the way it is... (however you could intellectualise that and say there are many small happenings) which is equally true but not the change in perspective that made me post.

 

@ Marblehead...Yes I guess approval seeking is natural if a persons essence has been denied approval for so long.

 

So basically I am just trying to look at the issue of seeking approval (and feeling ashamed of it) and being denied or thinking that you have been denied approval (and being ashamed of it) In the view of taoism... so everything is perfect piece of nature and nothing is disconnected from the whole so seeking approval is normal and natural sometimes as it feeling ashamed of it as this is perfectly natural as is trying to figure out how to not do so..like water flowing through a river, and thinking that you have been denied approval is perfectly natural and the way it should be as is feeling ashamed that you have been denied approval and perhaps it was a good thing as is trying to change that fact.

 

Also I was reading somewhere on the internet that seeking approval or perfection is a way to avoid painful emotions as you believe that if you were perfect or had approval you would not have those painful emotions

 

"One of the avoidances I have identified concerning future projection is ‘seeking perfection’, highlighting the misunderstanding that; if everything that we do is perfect, or everything was perfect, then painful negative physiological emotions will be not generated. The perceived benefit being that we then don’t have to experience emotional pain or suffering, now or in the future."

 

" As with everything in nature we are already perfect. It is therefore a misunderstanding to seek perfection."

Edited September 6, 2012 by sinansencer

[Marblehead]

Yeah. From the view of Tao everything is exactly as it should be at any given point in time. It cann't be otherwise.

 

From the view of man oftentimes changes need be made. Let's be careful with this though. Will we ever be perfect? From who's perspective are we seeking perfection? Value judgements are tricky little buggers. What is perfection?

 

I would say that it is when we have found peace & contentment. This does not need anyone else's approval.

 

But then, we don't want to be constantly pissing off other people. So what we do that effects others should be leading toward compatibility, not contention.

[skydog]

Also the idea of taking "credit" for something "we" did..... for example..someone got beat up in school in everyday...felt pain, had thoughts and feelings of wanting to become strong and powerful so all there pain would be solved did everything possible to do this..one day achieved it....but it all took place naturally there was no "I" that did all that it happened through the universe.

 

In a similar way someone did something aggressive and you had the feeling that your pain would be solved if you did a certain aggressive action back and your ego was perfect eg not 1 down..you reacted to the belief and did something...so basically was there an "I" who did the aggressive thing or did it all happen through the universe.

[skydog]

Yeah. From the view of Tao everything is exactly as it should be at any given point in time. It cann't be otherwise.

 

From the view of man oftentimes changes need be made. Let's be careful with this though. Will we ever be perfect? From who's perspective are we seeking perfection? Value judgements are tricky little buggers. What is perfection?

 

I would say that it is when we have found peace & contentment. This does not need anyone else's approval.

 

But then, we don't want to be constantly pissing off other people. So what we do that effects others should be leading toward compatibility, not contention.

 

yes

[Stosh]

Oh I misunderstood , I get it now.

Stosh

[zerostao]

“When we do not assert either action or nonaction, this or that, being or nonbeing, we are free from both.”

 

[Stosh]

“When we Do assert either action or nonaction, this or that, being or nonbeing, we are bound to the consequences of either.”

Stosh

[skydog]

very nice words..epiphany..trying to assert non doing is doing..trying to assert doing is more equilibrium, trying not to seek approval is doing, trying to seek approval ...hmm

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

This Hellish-heaven is probably a place where no one gets to have any vices

Stosh

[Marblehead]

This Hellish-heaven is probably a place where no one gets to have any vices

Stosh

Hehehe. Life would be so boring without our vices.

[shanlung]

Hehehe. Life would be so boring without our vices.

 

Vice to one might well be virtue to another.

 

Do remember the 7 Taoist Masters and the different roads that they took to final enlightenment.

One of them found that road by living in a brothel and heating water in a kettle on his dantien to brew tea.

 

 

Taoistic Idiot

 

 

 

 

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marblehead]

Vice to one might well be virtue to another.

 

Do remember the 7 Taoist Masters and the different roads that they took to final enlightenment.

One of them found that road by living in a brothel and heating water in a kettle on his dantien to brew tea.

 

Taoistic Idiot

Agree, and yes, I remember that story.

 

There is a concept that I hold that is not particularly Taoist but I still think it has value: "As long as it harms none."

[skydog]

harm is a concept...also the idea that harm is a concept is also a concept....

[Marblehead]

harm is a concept...also the idea that harm is a concept is also a concept....

You've got too many concepts. Hehehe.

[Stosh]

They are concepts born of our human nature and the relationship that exists between us and everything else

Just because they are concepts ,doesnt mean they are contraindicated, if that is the implication..

The eternal Tao has no concepts and has no bias but thats not you or me or Marblehead or Et.

As a baby grows its crucial that they be enabled by learning concepts. Its just wise to reexamine them at some point, and determine whether they -such as they are- are working for our welfare or if they are self defeating.

That they are not set in stone... allows flexibility , it doesnt mean ,,as some pretend,, that you or I would be better off as somekind of unthinking animal.

Maybe you agree.

Stosh

[steve]

Approval seeking is trying to claim "You" "did" something good or "you" are "good and getting angry about dissaproval is believing someone else "purposely" doesnt like what "you do"

 

But if you look at it from a point of wuwei there was never a you that did something good or bad or is doing something good or bad because everything is nature

To get back to the OP - approval seeking is a wonderful topic.

We are conditioned to be dependent on the approval of others from early childhood.

It starts with parents, then teachers, boy/girlfriends, friends, spouses, bosses,... it's endemic to socialization.

The primary fallacy underlying all of this is the idea that my happiness is dependent on or can be affected by anyone other than me.

If you look into this deeply over time, it can be discovered that my happiness rests totally within me.

One can come up with all sorts of scenarios that superficially seem to challenge that point of view.

But at the end of the day, if I am aware of my own patterns of emotional and psychological reaction, I get to choose whether or not I permit others' actions and words to affect my state of mind.

Thanks for posting on this everyone, I enjoy exploring this topic.

[skydog]

You've got too many concepts. Hehehe.

 

so have you...

 

a taoist doesnt spend all there interfering by "trying not to harm others"

 

One persons harm is another persons benefit...eg when you shout at someone you may believe you are doing something wrong but maybe that gives them pain and then stops them doing something...etc its the way its meant to be..not saying one should go out of their way to do these things...but if the world ends is it neccessarily bad

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts