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GrandTrinity

The Tao Bums Name

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The name Tao "Scientists" instead of "Bums" might show us taking ourselves more seriously? I love this site and name, but this is just a thought to consider:

 

The tao is cultural and traditional science. As "bums" do we not integrate science? It could be argued that science is the "final frontier" for spirituality and religious hopes.

 

Here in the West, perhaps we should give Eastern science (what I see as Tao) more respect? (Than seriously associating it with "BUMS"? In addition to "bums" being a very polarized aspect of the body and unoriginal in the sense of its relation to Dharma Bumas...not that the Dharma Bums werent the second coming of Christ j/k. I met one at a conference recently.)

Edited by GrandTrinity

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TaoBUMS catches ones eye, moves ones heart and one feels it in ones guts...

 

it's like the WHAAAM!!! I GOT IT!!!-feeling,realizing,enlightening-state-of-the-art!

 

TaoScientists to me simply reflects devastating analytical dullness...

 

:lol:

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As an avid proponant of the Beat Generation's contributions to our culture, I have a deep affinity for the title of Tao Bum.

 

Before their deaths, I got to know Allen Ginsberg, - (just a little through a few of his students and family friends) . Herbert Hunke often visited my art gallery on E. 11th Street. Other Beat poets were great influences on my life and work. The Dharma Bums itself is a wonderful story of seekers at work and play...

 

Also - most of the greatest Taoist monks would also be considered "bums" by those striving to maintain a more materialistic life style... While shedding our selves (that which dies) - to develop our inner beings (that which is eternal)- leaves little else to be desired, so such internal efforts may indeed develop within us a propensity, seemingly - to be bums. I like being associated with the Bumitude/Beatitude that transcends the attitudes of materialistic worldlyness...

 

The freeest I ever felt was riding freight trains from St.Cloud to Spokane, bein' a bum indeed!

 

Besides all of that -the sniveling Dick Nixon used to call me and my tribe "bums" when we worked to stop and indeed did end up stopping his damn war in Viet Nam. I have always thought of the term as one of honor since then, even after that louse was ousted!

 

I think we would smell as sweet by any other name, but hey- " bum " works for me! -so I say- Hallalluliah Im a BUM!

 

Namaste- from an old freight-hoppin rail-rider.

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I feel you. Part of what prompted me on this thread was that a dude from MIT is here. I do love the name Taobums and wouldnt want anyone to get the wrong idea, but I forsee that less wise people might be turned off by bum as opposed to like idk, your right word scientist is really baggageful.

 

Because we have been indoctrinated with false science our entire lives. Taoists are real scientists and engineers and them are just materialistic scientists.

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, but I forsee that less wise people might be turned off by bum...

 

If you mean by "less wise"

extremely narrowminded,

unopen,

uninterested in "exploring first, before making a proper decision"

 

why would you want them to hang around? :)

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True, Im just trying to make the point that Tao is the real science, and trying to get the point accross that unfortunetly, materialistic science is the world religion right now.

 

I feel like either we as "bums" (or whatever we are called) are going to change this or it wont be changed. I dont know...

 

I just feel bad for the youth are stuck in science classes (learning about materialistic science) like prisoners. Meanwhile, elite Taoists spiritualy enslave everyone, and we dont awaken to the fact that we could be becoming like those elite taoists and ignoring science as we sit on our bums.

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I have always felt that what we don't know can surely hurt us and it is what we know that will help us get through the struggles toward the light of reasoning-out how this world works...

 

My first pull towards Taoism as a belief system that I could relate to and hold onto - was when I realized how science friendly the philosophy truly is. Are these inclinations toward gathering knowledge to be construed as elitest?

 

The idea of elite Taoists came up before and was made much fun of. I am now concerned that this is a real phenomenon! What the dickens is an elite Taoist? Are we to believe they live amongst us?! Do they ride in carriages and have concubines? What are the dues to be paid for entry into such a club? Can those of any race even apply? Is there a Manchurian connection?

 

Hubris is not a well accepted or sought-after quality in Taoist teachings. It is one personality quirk which any true Taoist would try to rid themselves of. Am I to now believe there is some wriggle room in this activity? Can I let my egotism flower and seek some control over my comrades... ( in true fellowship of course!) I am confused by these tidings of elitism.

 

What gives?

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Than you Wayfarer64, this is a very healthy conversation.

 

When I look at Manly P Hall (wiki) I almost see an elite Taoist. He wrote the "Secret Teachings of All Ages" which tries to live up to it's title, exploring the esoteric, occult and "inner teaching"-like material of secret societies: the whole book is about alchemy.

 

Now, you would think such a book would have a chapter on the Taoist secret teachings? That would make a lot of sense, considering Tao is perhaps the forerunner of all the other mystery traditions, no?

 

Still, there is no exploration of this, or Buddhists Vajrayana (which I think is similar to esoteric tao in its power)! There is even a chapter on Native American mysteries - my point is that something is FISHY about hall?! Or maybe I am hallucinating?

 

Manly P Hall is a really interesting character, he is obviously part of the "illuminati" in that he is very connected with Freemasons and such.

 

People tend to have mixed views about the Masons due to their connections with elitism - government, religious, media, finance... you name it! Same as the SKULL AND BONES which Kerry and Bush were both members of! I feel these secret societies (and some are perhaps satanic) are incredible to learn about.

 

On the other hand, these societies gave birth to America! Look at all the founding fathers of America? They did some great things in building up our society, even if it has major faults which we need to address in the 21st century. All the most influencial founders were Masons. Evem the layout of Washington DC is based on Masonic symbolism.

 

Anyways, Hall reveals all kinds of esoteric secrets, he gives up all kinds of sagely wisdom for humanity. He is a prophet and prophetic, he cultivated incredible virtue (you will find, if you study and enjoy his work - at least I think so..).

 

"White Bird of Tao" is perhaps the most Hall wrote about the Tao in one reading, but I might be wrong about that. Also there is a chapter about Lao Tsu in "12 World Teachers" and I enjoyed his book about the Pheonix. He is a prolific writer... I am psyched to listen to his prophetic lectures about the 21st century. Already, I listened to the one about "education" which I felt was incredibly enlightening. Check out www.prs.org if your interested in this stuff...but sorry if I'm getting side tracked now.

 

Actually, I am not getting sidetracked! Hall is a scholar whose work furthers the important integration of spirituality, science and philosophy.

 

Anyways, "tao scientists" does sound boring. On my way to a concert yesterday, I thought of "flying tao scientists." I then thought: If anyone wants to know how "flying" is related to tao or science (in my vision) we'd cite quantum physics and how it's possible to fly and be present on Earth at the same time... the holographic cosmology which "modern science" has yet to integrate fully. So, I am talking about metaphysical flying (like from the daoist call "wing point" on the back of your heart). Our quantum knowledge, even that of ancient societies is way beyond our current "advancement." This Darwinian view of society is wrong: everything happens in cycles, including "golden ages"!!!

 

for more about what Plato calls the "Cycle of the Great Year" regarding this, a nice documentary for your viewing pleasures:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...e+great+year%22

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Hey there GT et al-

 

There seems to be only a vague notion of M.P. Hall's connection to Taoism. - As you note above. I do not think yr take on Free-Masonry is altogether in agreement with mine. It was first reintroduced as a very egalitarian society/club wherein members of the working classes could mingle with the upper classes in England/Scotland -(where the class system was very strict & is still somewhat more rigid than much of the world's social systems)...This was primarily an effort to get builders and architects together in a convivial setting. It was not meant to become an elitest organization.

 

I was sworn into the Chinese Free Masons many years ago as a student of Grand Master W. Chung. Shaolin was introduced into America via this society long ago. There is little connection between the Chinese Free Masons and the Scotish/British system. I have also been invited to join the Free Masons of NYC and indeed was a guest at a few of their rites many years ago. I did not join them. But I do have a few friends who are Masons and they are not elitist- they are regular guys with little social clout.

 

So, I still don't see the elitest Taoist angle. The Chinese Shaolin- Free-Masons are not the English/Scotish Free-Masons. Shaolin Free-Masonry is not Free-Masonry in the Western tradition.

 

The elitism of the skull & crossbones bunch is just the ignorant hubris of inane frat boys who are spoiled rotten ala our current prez. There is no room for such an arrogant and vapid credo in true Taoist value systems. Though of course there is room for it in the Tao!

 

I find that M. P. Hall is not such a viable source of information. He seems to be pulling much of what I have read by him fresh from his arse! That Jung borrowed from him surprises me. So if that is the case I shall take a new look at Mr. Manly Palmer Hall....But my previous take on him only tendered a strong scepticism.

Edited by Wayfarer64

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I like The Tao Bums. It brings so many great images to mind:

 

Casual, following the Way.

 

Dropout from regular society.

 

Unpredictable. Not following the established system.

 

And then there are those who have a "foot in both worlds." Like the look you see in the eye of the bum who has given up everything and is wandering on the streets.

 

Many more images too...

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Interesting Wayfarer, and thanks for these very insightful words Treena.

 

I, for one, however, do not like this "Dropout from regular society" idea. I think that is why we do need our feet in both worlds as "scientists" rather than "bums." Like with the rags but the gleam in the eye. Right now it seems like Tao bums is just rags and hasnt broken into potential academic higher education? Like vamping up the Tao bums activities and taking over the world eventually... :lol: no joke.

 

Not the there is much of a difference between a "scientist" and a "bum"!!! I just feel like the Tao Bums is perhaps a very YIN name? Then again so is "science" a very yin concept.

 

How does "Celestial Tao Scientists" sound? just an idea to ponder...

 

Every single scientist in the world desires liberation from the depressing materialism. Before they die, all scientists in the world want to understand the tao of heaven. I just worry that the word "bums" is definitely closing doors which are not necessarily in other's minds, but our own.

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I don't believe we can take Taoism out of context and maintain any semblance of its essence. When we take Taoism out of its geographic and cultural context we start to lose complete and integrated understanding. In that light Taobums describes us perfectly: there is a noncommital aspect to the very idea of a Western Taoist, because we are taking Taoism out of context and defining it on our terms rather than on the terms of those who carry the tradition forth.

If you really want to go for the full on Taoist experience you have to go to China, learn intimately about the culture with which Taoism is integrated and learn from "O.G." Taoists.

When I do that I will call myself a Taoist. Until then, color me Tao Bum. :D Or even Dao Dabbler. Cause that is what most of us Westerners who hold an affinity for what we know about Taoism are. IMO.

 

I definitely think to call M.P. Hall an elite Taoist is stretching the term Taoist beyond recognition.

 

For what its worth I think calling Winnie-The-Pooh a Taoist is a ridiculous stretch as well.

 

Pooh is pimp-tight though.

Sweet.

There is my first book title,"The Pimp-Tightness of Pooh."

Edited by darebak

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Lets not cast such wide nets, please... The evil Dr. Mengela of Nazi experimentations was an avid scientist. Yet evil to the core. Science has been misused in many ways- As Openhiemer said "I am become death" at the first detonation of the Atom bomb...And Alfred Nobel-of peace prize fame was the inventor of TNT, which he later regretted...Gattling invented the machine gun in an attempt to make war too deadly to continue waging!

 

Science has created many wonderous tools and benifits. But most importantly it has given us logical tests of our theories, and enabled us to test reality. People could once make-up any sort of thing they wanted and claim it to be real -before science took hold of reason. People, plants and animals could all morph into one-another before magic became unbelievable etc ...

 

Superstitions are usually backward and troublesome. So are many beliefs taught in bible-schools and Wahhadi schools. Truth is a hard thing to find often enough. We are misled to assume any one or anything holds all of truth. Even my much beloved I Ching has a few falasies to deal with.

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Do you think the original guys who were hanging out

meditating. doing qiggong called themselves daoists.

Maybe they had t-shirts or team jackets.

I think if you call yourself a daoist you ain't one.

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I don't believe we can take Taoism out of context and maintain any semblance of its essence. When we take Taoism out of its geographic and cultural context we start to lose complete and integrated understanding. In that light Taobums describes us perfectly: there is a noncommital aspect to the very idea of a Western Taoist, because we are taking Taoism out of context and defining it on our terms rather than on the terms of those who carry the tradition forth.

If you really want to go for the full on Taoist experience you have to go to China, learn intimately about the culture with which Taoism is integrated and learn from "O.G." Taoists.

When I do that I will call myself a Taoist. Until then, color me Tao Bum. :D Or even Dao Dabbler. Cause that is what most of us Westerners who hold an affinity for what we know about Taoism are. IMO.

 

I definitely think to call M.P. Hall an elite Taoist is stretching the term Taoist beyond recognition.

 

For what its worth I think calling Winnie-The-Pooh a Taoist is a ridiculous stretch as well.

 

Pooh is pimp-tight though.

Sweet.

There is my first book title,"The Pimp-Tightness of Pooh."

 

 

What about studying directly with westerners who are "authentic" Taoists? I have done workshops with Ken Cohen who is a Taoist priest(was the principle apprentice to Longmen Sect Taoist Abbot KS Wong).

 

The guy Sean studies with is considered a "real" Taoist initiate, no? Nothing wrong with going to China and studying with people but I don't see what's wrong with taking advantage of studying with "real" Taoists who spent years studying from Chinese teachers and can present the material through the lens of western culture very skillfully but also mantain the intergrity of the original traditions.

 

Not that Ime particularly interested in being a real Taoist over a Tao bum anyway, just saying.

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What about The Tao 'n' homies? -for some street cred

 

or

Up Taoners -just to balance the directional yin/yang thing

 

Tao'n' Outers -is also bum oriented

 

Taosers -for those seeking their own watery level

 

Taoners ... is just too sad

 

Taoters seems apt as we seem a pretty doubtful bunch -or similarly the Tao-Ting Thomases

or

 

Taoagers for those of us long in the tooth - same as Taodies

 

Or the Tao Jonesers-too confusing!

 

I say NO to each and every one! Sure, change is good but the name change idea isn't!!!

 

I was thinking of using "Taon Pat" as my stage name when I play the blues. People would think it was "Down Pat" and the down-ness of the blues would work, as well as a sort of cocky surity of my craft as a musician...

But I've not done so yet...

 

I once had a very over-weight pal at work who I called Tao-Boy... when he asked me why - I told him "Cause yr always in the way!"...He was convinced I meant Dough-boy because he was so big...He never did get it...

 

I'm spent on this thing!-

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Wait, Allen Ginsberg is dead?

 

Yes. -I'm thinking it was in 1997 that he passed on, a couple years after I closed my bricks & morter galleries..

There were sveral memorials and events around his passing....

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What about studying directly with westerners who are "authentic" Taoists? I have done workshops with Ken Cohen who is a Taoist priest(was the principle apprentice to Longmen Sect Taoist Abbot KS Wong).

 

The guy Sean studies with is considered a "real" Taoist initiate, no? Nothing wrong with going to China and studying with people but I don't see what's wrong with taking advantage of studying with "real" Taoists who spent years studying from Chinese teachers and can present the material through the lens of western culture very skillfully but also mantain the intergrity of the original traditions.

 

Not that Ime particularly interested in being a real Taoist over a Tao bum anyway, just saying.

 

I think maybe that is where I, at least have been flawed in my approach to all things Taoist for years. I had always assumed that it was Taoist traditions that needed to get with the times and translate everything into English and adjust things for a purer translation to the Western mindset. But that is just so terribly arrogant and flat out wrong.

 

It seems that it is I who must adapt myself to understand the context from which the aspect of Taoism I am interested in has emerged, rather than the other way around. Makes sense doesn't it? I don't know if its even possible to translate these ideas to a Western mindset that is just so damned over-the-top based on logic. I am just now starting with Mandarin. That is my first step.I am also trying to understand more about the Chinese mind. I am also trying connect with a living Taoist tradition with deep roots.

 

I don't know about the teachers mentioned above. I am more interested in the teachings of a particular lineage that has included very few westerners so far. The teachers mentioned here seem to have more of a philosophical or psychological focus. But I really don't know because I don't know much about either one.

 

I agree that the original Taoists probably would not have categorized themselves as such. But at this point it seems to me that it is important to attach oneself to a Taoist tradition that can be traced back as far as possible if a true understanding is to be developed. Because it takes time and the efforts of generations to create practices that work, can be taught and produce tangible, demonstrable results. In that light there is a scientific aspect to real Taoist meditation.

 

I guess the determination of whether or not you are a Taoist boils down to semantics and nomenclature.

 

I often refer to myself as a Tao Geek. :)

Edited by darebak

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What prompted this thread was my thinking about higher education. Education, in the 21st century, is moving towards giving learners more freedom to liberate their mind (if I and other good people have anything to say about it.) The problems I see with the Taobums name (and I only see it as a problem in this context) is that the name is kind of a joke. Do not get me wrong, jokes are good, especially in higher education and all - but in all seriousness, some in "academia" (and the crowd goes wild) will automaticaly see "bums" as being a term implying some kind of evil!

 

I would prefer people see Taobums as working to merge science and religion instead!

 

My point is we need to be careful. In this next century, there is no limit to how much innovative and important growth a website like this can manifest. I am thinking on cosmic levels and I do not think "taobums" is considered a cosmic concept by most any non member who does not have insight into tao (even if they would like to). I feel like a name which implies more explicitly the unification of science and religion, even in a jokingly and good-humorous way is something to seriously think about for the future of neo-Taoism and world peace.

 

We are in a new paradigm in this century, we have to expand our horizons people. I know Bums (well, sometimes) are good but I feel our name could be misconstrued as dualistic too easily.

 

Perhaps my problem with the taobums name is that it resonates in the heart through base chakras? It does not even resonate in higher chakras and barely in the heart at all - maybe with some intellectual shit interpretation of tao.

 

Bums implies laziness and slowness, nothing like "supreme clarity" or "celestial masters" or "complete perfection." Do you see what I am saying? Compare our name to authentic Taoist cults/clans like "heavenly heart" and you get a completely slower and lower resonance in your subtle body. Who can argue with that? I know some of you will, but as Lao Tsu says, arguments are not good!

Edited by GrandTrinity

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I think Taobums is a very heartwarming name. Does that mean it activates my heart Chakra? Maybe. I am not sure I know what a chakra REALLY is. (And I have heard all the new agey definitions, as well as the yoga version, the Tibetan version, The "American Taoist" version, etc.) I think I have a slightly more acurate idea what a Tantien is than most people do, though I still don't REALLY know. I know that it only exists as a potential until you create it. (Which means I don't have one. Yet.) I learned that viewpoint from the old Wenwu.org site. And it sure makes a heck of a lotta sense to me. Now is this the same as a chakra? I don't know.

But I digress.

I'll tell you this much: Taobums has a lot more heart than some high falootin' fancypants name. It also implies a good degree of humility which is pretty important to me. I probably never would have joined if it weren't for that name and I am very, very glad I did. Thanks very much Sean, for starting this forum. Perhaps giving birth is a better description, since it is its own living, breathing entity at this point. :o

It may also be, GT, that your view of what this forum should be is different from what Sean had in mind upon its inception (or conception to keep with the birth metaphor. :lol: ) Perhaps rather than attempting to steer his forum in any one particular direction you would serve your purpose better by starting one of your own, with your objective in mind. I'm sure a lot of folks here would join. I would join, even though I would probably annoy the hell out of everyone with my more than slightly purist viewpoint. I annoy myself sometimes with that. Hehe.

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:lol: Are you high on drugs? j/k

 

Your right, my current vision may slightly differ from the Sean's initial conception.

 

I do not like to think I am "trying" to change the name of this forum, it is Sean's forum and if I were really trying to change it, I would call him up or something. Right now I am just interested to see what people think about this question. Maybe Sean will end up agreeing, maybe not. I just get slightly depressed being called a bum all the time, even though I know it is a joke and we, as Taoists are the only people who can potentially save the world.

 

And think about how much suffering there is in the world?

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Wait a minute!!! The world is perfect just as it is! It offers us each the challange to make it and ourselves better. What more could you want? We may be able to see the nature of our reality more clearly through the prism of Taoism, this does not lend us a right to lead the world or presume anything other than any given truth we find On Our Way... Each in our own seperate (yet intrinsicly entwined) manner of being in these moments of our lives.

 

I fear for the arrogance inherant in this idea now! Scientists are no better than bums - if the bums create peace and leave small foot-prints on this earth, while the scientists probe with prurient fingers only to be answered with Spring for all the troubles they cause!

 

Making little physical impact on this precisely balanced orb of life has far more merit than changing the chemical structure of plastics to make them pierce body-armor...

 

Read any poetry by Gary Snyder.

Also read The Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac and then see if his ode to proto-hippidom and getting back to the earth has less meaning than genetic manipulations- and then read Desolation Angels, about his experience as a forest fire-watcher deep in the green world of wood and rock and sky and stream,(and away from the world of men)...You will then care less what some egg-head thinks about what things are named and get to the why things are the way they are, the real science of all inter-connected life so apparent in the poetry of Gary Snyder- who is the original Dharma Bum and would be pleased- I believe - to have the Tao bum association as well...

 

Namaste- from an old freight-hoppin' hippy who is proud to be part of Da Bums! - And often ashamed to be part of the human rat-race.

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I see the word "bums" to imply wandering, not attached to any particular system, and getting a bit of this & that as we can. Which, I think, describes perfectly what many people in western cultures are doing while exploring eastern religions. It points to openness and plurality of view and approach, and the real independence (like it or not) of the western~eastern spiritual seeker.

 

Such an open, pluralistic view makes it accessable and inviting to anyone. And prompts the peaceful-variety-conversation that is the social-religious dynamic of our time.

 

:D

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