Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section B

[XieJia]

I'll start with the seemingly obvious:

 

Emperor Yao is trying to give Xun You the throne because the job is basically taking care of itself and he feels that, if he influences the job that is being done, then he will ruin it.

 

Xun You refuses the position because [in this example of Anarcho-Taoism (and no I'm not just biased, it's pretty apparent that they feel active authority will ruin the harmony and balance)] he knows that there is no real job to be done so there is no use in pretending to govern.

 

This of course has wider implications about self.

 

Do you think it is possible to take the principle, that you found here.

And apply to the inner cultivation of the Dao; Read carefully and reflect.

Master Rong and Master Lie's ways are a bit different.

 

 

What will Master Lie be waiting for?

Edited October 20, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

I will also suggest that Chuang Tzu is still setting the stage here. Actually telling us some things about himself and his forthcoming philosophy. I think that we will later see that Chuang Tzu is all three of these (imaginary?) masters; Xu You, Rong & Lie.

[konchog uma]

 

[geezer voice]

when *I* was a kid, there were SIX elements! SIX thats right. kids these days and their five element theory!

[/geezer voice]

[lienshan]

[geezer voice]

when *I* was a kid, there were SIX elements! SIX thats right. kids these days and their five element theory!

[/geezer voice]

六氣之辯 the eloquence of the six qi (chi)

 

Your 'good old days' called my attention and the above is my litteral translation of the corresponding chinese characters in Zhuangzi. Qi (chi) is not my business so I checked Chun Qui Zuo Zhuan for an warring states time definition of the 'six qi' term:

 

天有六氣 .... 六氣曰 陰 陽 風 雨 晦 明 也

 

Heaven has six qi .... the six qi are called yin, yang, wind, rain, night, day.

 

Chun Qui Zuo Zhuan is a confucian text. I do not know if Zhuangzi's had other sources?

[konchog uma]

六氣之辯 the eloquence of the six qi (chi)

 

Your 'good old days' called my attention and the above is my litteral translation of the corresponding chinese characters in Zhuangzi. Qi (chi) is not my business so I checked Chun Qui Zuo Zhuan for an warring states time definition of the 'six qi' term:

 

天有六氣 .... 六氣曰 陰 陽 風 雨 晦 明 也

 

Heaven has six qi .... the six qi are called yin, yang, wind, rain, night, day.

 

Chun Qui Zuo Zhuan is a confucian text. I do not know if Zhuangzi's had other sources?

 

verrry interesting! thanks!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here is a mix of the Victor Mair translation (thankfully, Anamatva left an extra part in section A) with parts from the one MH posted in bold:

 

Here was a man who would neither feel flattered if the whole world praised him nor frustrated if the whole world censured him. Master Sung (Rongzi of Song) was able to be like this simply because he could tell the difference between what was intrinsic and what was extrinsic, because he made a distinction between honor and

disgrace. Here, however, he stopped. His place in the world indeed had become indifferent to him, but still he had not planted himself firmly (in the right position). [vs. Although he was not embroiled in worldly affairs, still

there was something that he was unable to achieve .]

 

 

Master Lieh could ride upon the wind wherever he pleased , drifting marvelously, and returning only after fifteen days. Although he was not embroiled in the pursuit of blessings and thus was able to dispense with walking, still there was something that he had to rely upon.

 

Supposing there were someone who could ride upon the truth of heaven and earth, who could chariot upon the transformations of the six vital breaths and thereby go wandering in infinity, [ who mounts on (the ether of) heaven and earth in its normal operation, and drives along the six elemental energies of the changing (seasons), thus enjoying himself in the illimitable ] what would he have to rely on?

 

Therefore it is said, 'The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame.'

 

Seems to be showing the connection between not being in the pursuit of blessings, yet being reliant on the right timing (the wind) or circumstances. Rongzi "still he had not planted himself firmly (in the right position)" and thus did not continue his journey as ruler (it seems to read).

 

Not having thought of self, merit, or fame allows one to avoid the limitations of walking in the world, allowing them to float though it on the wind with no hindrance except for having to wait for the right timing or circumstances which one must be mindful of in order to catch their flight when it's available.

 

"Supposing there were someone who could ride upon the truth of heaven and earth, who could chariot upon the transformations of the six vital breaths and thereby go wandering in infinity, what would he have to rely on?"

 

Surely this person would be at least as self-reliant as Rongzi and Leizi, so I suppose: themselves..

 

Perhaps they have "yin, yang, wind, rain, night, day" at their command within?

 

wind: chi

rain: jing

yin: allow

yang: intent

night: cultivation

day: shen

 

 

"The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame."

 

I like the correlations:

 

"By becoming attached to what is seen of the mind itself, there is an activity awakened which is perpetuated by habit-energy that becomes manifest in the mind-system. From the activities of the mind-system there rises the notion of an ego-soul and its belongings; the discriminations, attachments, and notion of an ego-soul, rising simultaneously like the sun and its rays of light."

 

- Ch. IV, Lankavatara Sutra

 

Not to say that they are the same...

[Apech]

Very carefully.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously. The Sections will be daily until the entire Chapter is posted. Then there will be a short break (two or three days maybe) between Chapters to allow people who don't get online every day to catch up, make comments, whatever, and then do the next Chapter.

 

I haven't read this for a long time. I am trying absorb each section so slow is good for me.

[Apech]

the mole drinks from the He

 

A detail I know ... but what does this mean?

[Cosmo]

However, wouldn't it be better to be the one using the instrument in order to help others? Sure, we can be satisfied with being just the instrument but I think it would be much more productive to be the user of the instrument.

 

And you believe you can use your instrument better than the divine can?

[XieJia]

A detail I know ... but what does this mean?

 

He can means River, Steams or Reference to the Yellow River.

 

@Harmonious

Nice!

But don't be partial, how about Liezi/Master Lie?

 

@Cosmo

A Divine Cat! A Divine Trees! Divine World!

Aren't all creations Divine? I am curious.

[Protector]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divan_(furniture)

[Cosmo]

@Cosmo

A Divine Cat! A Divine Trees! Divine World!

Aren't all creations Divine? I am curious.

 

A manifestation of a will and a will are not the same.

[XieJia]

A manifestation of a will and a will are not the same.

 

Bring forth more of my curiosity

If the manifestation knows the will, act by the will, becomes one with the will.

Then will the manifestation be with the divine?

 

 

@Sin

Nice one! A dwell-able couch.

Edited October 21, 2011 by XieJia

[Cosmo]

Bring forth more of my curiosity

If the manifestation knows the will, act by the will, becomes one with the will.

Then will the manifestation be divine?

 

This seems to be jumping around a few different ideas. Will and Divine were not necessarily linked in my mind.

 

But, the way you phrased, I would answer:

 

If the manifestation of the will knows the will, acts by the will, and becomes one with the will, then no the manifestation would not be "divine". It would not be "the will". It would simply be in accordance with "the Divine" or "the will".

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

@Harmonious

 

But don't be partial, how about Liezi/Master Lie?

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. Partial?

[Marblehead]

And you believe you can use your instrument better than the divine can?

 

Oh Cosmo! Have you not noticed that I am an Atheist???? There are no divinities anywhere in my life. I have never personified Tao. I have never even personified Tzujan.

 

I use 'me' or let someone else use 'me'. I prefer doing it myself. Besides, that is why I was afforded a functioning brain.

[XieJia]

I'm not sure what you mean here. Partial?

 

Lol, I am just teasing you.

 

You told us about Rongzi, I was just asking you whether you found the difference between Rongzi's and Liezi's Ways?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Lol, I am just teasing you.

 

You told us about Rongzi, I was just asking you whether you found the difference between Rongzi's and Liezi's Ways?

 

I guess I wasn't very clear here:

 

"Seems to be showing the connection between not being in the pursuit of blessings, yet being reliant on the right timing (the wind) or circumstances. Rongzi "still he had not planted himself firmly (in the right position)" and thus did not continue his journey as ruler (it seems to read).

 

Not having thought of self, merit, or fame allows one to avoid the limitations of walking in the world, allowing them to float though it on the wind with no hindrance except for having to wait for the right timing or circumstances which one must be mindful of in order to catch their flight when it's available."

 

So they both were able to transcend the beliefs of others, however, Ronzi did not use circumstance to advantage and so the country fell from him, whereas Leizi knew he was still dependent on the wind and so he was able to travel back and forth in just 15 days.

 

Essentially, Rongzi and Leizi both had virtue like that of the "Perfect man" but Rongzi did not employ favourable circustances, he did not accept that he was still reliant on Tao and so he lost favour with his country by letting it fall to ruin, whereas Leizi rode the wind, he moved with the time, with right circumstances.

 

I guess part of the message here being, too, that someone without thought of self, deed, or fame, must truly be humble enough to accept circumstances and not think "it is beneath me to have to acquiesce to common conditions." Leizi truly had no thought of self. Perhaps Rongzi did not reach the same height of selflessness?

[ChiDragon]

RongZi

宋榮子：世上的人們都贊譽他，他不會因此越發努力，世上的人們都非難他，他也不會因此而更加沮喪。他清楚地劃定自身與物外的區別，辯別榮譽與恥辱的界限，不過如此而已呀！宋榮子他對於整個社會，從來不急急忙忙地去追求什麼。雖然如此，他還是未能達到最高的境界。

 

Th people praise RongZi, but he will not given up his diligence because of that. When people put him down, he will not be discouraged neither. He clearly laid out the boundary between himself and the external world. He can distinguish the difference between praise and insult. It was only that. RongZi within the entire society, he had never rushed to pursuit anything. Even so, he hasn't reached the ultimate state.

 

LiZi

列子：列子能駕風行走，那樣子實在輕盈美好，而且十五天後方才返回。列子對於尋求幸福，從來沒有急急忙忙的樣子。他這樣做雖然免除了行走的勞苦，可還是有所依憑呀。至於遵循宇宙萬物的規律，把握「六氣」的變化，遨遊於無窮無盡的境域，他還仰賴什麼呢！

 

LiZi can ride with the wind, that will be a light way to travel; and then it only takes him 15 days for a round trip. In the case in seeking for happiness, there was never an indication that he has to be hasty. That will eliminate the fatigue from running around; but still there was a need to depended on something else. In order to follow the universal law for all things, by keeping track of the changes of the "six chi" and to travel the endless boundaries. What else does he has to be depended on...???

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What else does he has to be depended on...???

 

yes. you're translation makes much more obvious what I was "picking up" from the others.

 

So, the last part about the 6 chi was talking about Leih Tzu? I thought it was saying "what if someone (hypothetical person) could chariot.." in contrast to Leih Tzu who had to wait for the natural movements of the 6 chi. Not a huge deal, but the other translation seemed to fantasize about the possibility of commanding the 6 chi.

[Apech]

Oh Cosmo! Have you not noticed that I am an Atheist???? There are no divinities anywhere in my life. I have never personified Tao. I have never even personified Tzujan.

 

I use 'me' or let someone else use 'me'. I prefer doing it myself. Besides, that is why I was afforded a functioning brain.

 

Functioning brain! There you go exaggerating again.

[Apech]

Right. Tell me if you think I am on the right lines with this.

 

When you do things its not for praise or self esteem, it is simply to do what has to be done. Not too much or too little because both of those would lead to error (? is that the right word).

 

Er help me out here ... I do not have a functioning brain at the moment.

[ChiDragon]

yes. you're translation makes much more obvious what I was "picking up" from the others.

 

So, the last part about the 6 chi was talking about Leih Tzu? I thought it was saying "what if someone (hypothetical person) could chariot.." in contrast to Leih Tzu who had to wait for the natural movements of the 6 chi. Not a huge deal, but the other translation seemed to fantasize about the possibility of commanding the 6 chi.

The six chi are:

陰、陽、風、雨、晦、明: Yin, Yang, Wind, Rain, Darkness and Brightness.

 

Just by looking at the nomenclatures, it was pretty much self explanatory that they are the phenomenons of Nature. Thus they cannot by controlled by human.

[manitou]

I am an instrument in the hands of God.

 

 

 

I'm jumping in a bit late, I know. I think this statement is exactly what the words point to: I am an instrument in the hands of God. It's also like saying I am an instrument in the manifestation of the underlying Order of everything. It seems pretty clear when the words of conclusion are;

 

Therefore it is said, 'The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame.'

 

The Sage, or the one who is at One with his inner self, has no thought of self; Self isn't separate from his God-knowledge; he has become merely a vessel for this strange new way of thinking and behaving. He has merged with his God-knowledge and his perspective has changed forever. The sage takes no merit because he needs none. He is complete in and of himself and he loves Work for the sake of work. Therefore, he is Here Now in his most menial task, and receiving merit from others isn't necessary to his own happiness.

 

The sage has no thought of fame because his ego remains in a state of reduction. He is eternally grateful for those things and situations and people and relationships and just...changes in general - and he realizes that all things, at some level, are truly manifesting through us, the personification of creation at this level. He realizes that because he is merely a vessel any accolades coming his way really aren't for him anyway.

[ChiDragon]

Right. Tell me if you think I am on the right lines with this.

 

When you do things its not for praise or self esteem, it is simply to do what has to be done. Not too much or too little because both of those would lead to error (? is that the right word).

 

Er help me out here ... I do not have a functioning brain at the moment.

 

Yes, you do....

Edited October 21, 2011 by ChiDragon