What is Lao Tzu?

[Everything]

[zanshin]

I don't think technology will be our salvation. I don't see people building a utopia, eradicating pain and suffering or becoming immortal. If anything it hurts my heart to see us living more and more apart from nature and real human connections with each other. I think we'll probably continue to sputter along for a while and someday the whole human race will be gone.

 

But I really don't see that any of that as cause for despair. Tomorrow is going to be a beautiful day. Looking forward to doing some gardening. Friends coming over and trying to think of some good food to make for everyone. Life's not perfect, but it has some perfect parts.

[Marblehead]

Atheism does not = nihilism, perhaps it could, but I think we should be better than that.

 

Just repeating this for emphasis.

[Everything]

I don't think technology will be our salvation. I don't see people building a utopia, eradicating pain and suffering or becoming immortal. If anything it hurts my heart to see us living more and more apart from nature and real human connections with each other. I think we'll probably continue to sputter along for a while and someday the whole human race will be gone.

 

But I really don't see that any of that as cause for despair. Tomorrow is going to be a beautiful day. Looking forward to doing some gardening. Friends coming over and trying to think of some good food to make for everyone. Life's not perfect, but it has some perfect parts.

When you look at nature, you see certain patterns. Those patterns you can apply to technology. Technology is inspired by nature. Technology is impartial like nature. It is good for bad am good, it is bad foor bad and good. It just matters how we decide to apply it. We have been using technology since we started to throw rocks and building fires. Hehe, I'm not sure what technology exactly is. It doesn't seem to be unnatural.

[zanshin]

I like my nature relatively technology free. But I am ridiculous, lived just fine with no cell phone for over 30 years, this morning left it at home and felt like I lost an appendage. You are right though, technology could be seen as like nature, stock market and cities too. For a long time, we made assumption that economies would grow forever. And the urban planners never considered how to adapt cities for shrinking populations.

[manitou]

Nice dissertation on manifesting, Marbles. I would only add that you are the one doing the manifesting.

[Marblehead]

Nice dissertation on manifesting, Marbles. I would only add that you are the one doing the manifesting.

 

Hahaha!!! See? That is something a Buddhist would say. Lao Tzu would never ever say anything like that. I can manifest nothing! I can only interpret what I have observed.

 

 

And BTW Welcome back. I am looking forward to many conversations with you with a few disagreements now and then. Hehehe.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Marblehead

[Everything]

I like my nature relatively technology free. But I am ridiculous, lived just fine with no cell phone for over 30 years, this morning left it at home and felt like I lost an appendage. You are right though, technology could be seen as like nature, stock market and cities too. For a long time, we made assumption that economies would grow forever. And the urban planners never considered how to adapt cities for shrinking populations.

Yeah, but human minds are pattern seekers of nature. The patterns all around us within nature is many. We can infinitely discover new patterns, as the promise goes that the mysteries in this universe are infinite. I think even Lao Tzu gave great importance to nature.

 

When you plant some flowers in the garden, even that is technology is it not? You use a pattern to your advantage.

 

What about the bow and arrow being technology? The digital technology is also nothing more then a human built device that are dependant on natural patterns.

 

Lao Tzu also spoke of technology.

"Thus tools come from what exists(discovering natural patterns in order to built new technological tool),

But use from what does not(using this tool comes from our desire to fill the lack/nothing)."

 

We can use tools to built food more efficiently.

 

 

"Cut out doors and windows in order to make a room.

Adapt the nothing therein to the purpose in hand, and you will have the use of the room.

 

Thus what we gain is Something, yet it is by virtue of Nothing that this can be put to use."

[Everything]

I can manifest nothing!

Nice manifestation

[Marblehead]

Nice manifestation

 

Hehehe. You and Manitou should talk with each other more often.

[manitou]

Hehehe. You and Manitou should talk with each other more often.

 

I merely think Everything and I have gotten down to Who we Really Are. This involves loss of structure, whether it be Daoism or Buddhism. they all lead to the same place, once you get there you realize that.

[Marblehead]

I merely think Everything and I have gotten down to Who we Really Are. This involves loss of structure, whether it be Daoism or Buddhism. they all lead to the same place, once you get there you realize that.

 

Ha Ha Ha.

 

I won't challenge you. I'm gonna' try real hard to be nice for a while. (Might last for only a few minutes though.)

 

I still have my structure. I still have my emotions, I still have my ego, I still have my free will!

 

I don't know where that place is you speak to. Maybe I am still an individual, special in my own way, and at peace with his Self. Oh, sure, I am a part of the whole. Oneness wouldn't be complete without me at this point in time.

 

There really is no place to go, you know. Everything that really matters is within ourselves.

 

 

Edit to add:

 

OH!, and it is true, doesn't really matter if one is a Taoist, a Buddhist, a Christian, a Moslem, or whatever. What matters is the reality of the person.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Marblehead

[XieJia]

Everything that really matters is within ourselves.

 

Wot! So what Everything said is actually within ourselves.

 

 

Hahaha, Kidding kidding.

 

Well said my friends.

[Marblehead]

I'm ignoring that post. Hehehe.

[manitou]

Enlightenment, should anybody desire that, does involve loss of structure.and temperance of ego. Along with not being slaves to emotion or opinion.

[Marblehead]

Enlightenment, should anybody desire that, does involve loss of structure.and temperance of ego. Along with not being slaves to emotion or opinion.

 

I still haven't heard a good definition of what enlightenment is.

 

Yes, temperance - moderation - tolerance. All good things. But I do believe that we should have some structure in our life. IMO this would be the middle path. We can always return to what is already established whenever we have gone too far in any direction.

[Birch]

Edited for being pointless :-)

Edited September 28, 2011 by -K-

[Birch]

I still haven't heard a good definition of what enlightenment is.

 

Yes, temperance - moderation - tolerance. All good things. But I do believe that we should have some structure in our life. IMO this would be the middle path. We can always return to what is already established whenever we have gone too far in any direction.

 

 

I'll give you what I figure I "know" about enlightenment mr MH. Enlightenment is the realisation that you are pure consciousness in human form and all the rest is pure consciousness in other forms. So that would include matter (just condensed consciousness). If, prior to this realisation you had believed in God or gods or anything else 'out there' in terms of the 'divine' well, by the time of your enlightenment, you would realise you are it. As is everyone else. But I don't see much in there that's different from the Taoist position on things.

[Marblehead]

Hi -K-,

 

That's just as good, if not better, than some I have heard.

 

Funny, I just read a taoist quote from a collection I have. It read:

 

One who embraces the Tao has wholeness of character; from wholeness of character comes wholeness of the body, and from wholeness of the body comes wholeness of the Spirit.

 

So we could rephrase this and say:

 

Enlightenment is having wholeness of Spirit which is attained through wholeness of body which is attained through wholeness of character.

 

Pure consciousness? And what would this be? If you had said 'pure energy' my question would not be so strong. 'Pure energy' being unaltered Chi from the source.

 

Stig once asked me if I thought there was still any 'pure energy' in the universe and I answered "Yes". No, I have no idea why I feel this is true.

 

Oh, it is so much fun thinking about things I don't know anything about!

[Birch]

We might run into that issue of how energy "begets" consciousness. It doesn't, because it already is. Energy is created through differences. Dualities, polarities...

 

I guess knowing it doesn't make much of a difference. What might make a difference is where you're knowing it from.

 

I liked your quote. It reminded me that a lot of "spiritual" practices are these attempts to cease identification with the body/mind/spirit which IMO is what one wanted to do (identify)in the first place as an incarnate being. Figuring that a return to something that is "pure" spirit after one's "fall" into matter is feasible. But that's IMO just more crazy dualism. Think "continuum" Mr MH!

[manitou]

'Pure energy' being unaltered Chi from the source.

 

 

 

This is also the best description of what people around the world consider 'God' that I've ever heard. This is the One that is reverted to in the Tao.

[Marblehead]

Think "continuum" Mr MH!

 

Hehehe. Oh, I do. But only now and then. Mostly I am thinking today and tomorrow. (Don't think about yesterday too often.)

 

And yes, I can understand your preference for the word "consciousness". Not a problem as far as I can tell. I just don't think about the concept at as high a level as many do.

[Marblehead]

This is also the best description of what people around the world consider 'God' that I've ever heard. This is the One that is reverted to in the Tao.

 

Yes, I have a Pantheist friend who likes that as well.

 

I have spoke of TzuJan numerous times and this must be considered whenever speaking of "Pure Tao", "God", or any other "Higher Power".