Is Pineal Gland Activation more important than Heart Mind Activation?

[C T]

Found one online review.

 

http://spiritdimension.com/newstore/magic/ASIN1425136486-MC%C2%B2_&60;_C_Exploring_Freethought_Magick.htm

Hmm... you are in luck, RV.

 

sounds like a most objective critique... i wonder if it ever made any bestsellers' list? Not that it matters much. I suppose what counts is that it reaches a wide enough audience to enable the writer to make a few quid. Another self-help manual - helllpppp!!

[Vmarco]

Found one online review.

 

http://spiritdimension.com/newstore/magic/ASIN1425136486-MC%C2%B2_&60;_C_Exploring_Freethought_Magick.htm

 

Whoa! Thanks,...didn't know I had a review.

 

The truth is, those are preliminary books. I needed to get past that stuff to focus on the next,...I'm currently working on 'Return of Wisdom',...dakini wisdom.

 

Chapter 3 in 'Full Spectrum Consciousness' did win a 2007 International Christian Writing Competition,...go figure! But then my university studies were focused on Early Christianity.

 

V

Edited August 10, 2011 by Vmarco

[Aetherous]

CowTao,

 

do you also experience a dissipation of any sort in tandem with this onset of this 'void energy'? Like when the energy rises and becomes more acute, is it actually a condensation, or is there also a falling away of something happening and felt, riding on the one wave? Its this part of the experience that i am quite interested to explore.

 

I'm not sure if anything actually dissipates or condenses...

 

But there was a temporary falling away of body sensation...it was as if the "void energy" was like water being poured slowly through the inside of the body, and streaming down...and everywhere the water touched had entirely vanished or merged completely with the surroundings, or the space/air, to the point of not even existing anymore.

 

Something like that. It happened a while back, and I haven't been practicing these methods for the past year or so...so my memory regarding it isn't so clear.

 

[Vmarco]

i wonder if it ever made any bestsellers' list? Not that it matters much. I suppose what counts is that it reaches a wide enough audience to enable the writer to make a few quid. Another self-help manual - helllpppp!!

 

No way would my books make any best seller list,...too heretical, LOL

 

One thing I never cared for about books was how all the worthwhile content (in the non-fiction, enlightenment/mysticism genre) could usually be summarized onto a single page. I saw no need to write a book unless there was a Hui Neng moment on every page,...you know who Hui Neng was? 6th Zen Patriarch who hearing one sentence written by Hung Jen, instantly realized Enlightenment.

 

But, for most people, it's like Shakyamuni purportedly said, that he discovered something profound and luminous beyond all concepts. He tried to communicate that something, but few understood.

 

Yeap,...my books won't be best sellers. Just like my personal favorites were not best sellers. Like,...Alexandra David-Neel,...Magic and Mystery in Tibet; L Collot D'Herbois,...Colour; Wei Wu Wei,...Open Secret; Dennis Milner,...The Loom of Creation; PD Ouspensky,...In Search of the Miraculous; Krishnamurti,...Think on These Things; Tilopa's Mahamudra.

 

V

Edited August 10, 2011 by Vmarco

[Aetherous]

CowTao, this might help illustrate it more...

 

 

This was the primary experience, and it would also stream down and extend so that nearly the entire torso was "gone".

 

Anyway, nothing worth attaching to. Just a cool experience.

[Vajrahridaya]

Then there's the final stage of "crushing the void".

 

Thanks for sharing! I wonder if that can be equated with the practice of, "emptying the basis" in Mahamudra/Dzogchen?

 

CowTao?

 

Do you know about this reference?

 

In my understanding it means the process of fully emptying the seeds of self identity located in the Alayavijnana stage of contemplation and experience. The Alayavijnana being a dependent arising of formless levels of self clinging, generally experienced as the un-illumined unconscious in the deep sleep state for non-meditators and non-contemplatives.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Aetherous]

Thanks for sharing! I wonder if that can be equated with the practice of, "emptying the basis" in Mahamudra/Dzogchen?

 

I have no idea. "Crushing the void" is from Yang Jwing Ming's book Embryonic Breathing. Here is what it says:

 

Crushing the nothingness - Nine years of facing the wall. At this stage you begin to see the spiritual world as the more real one. Crushing nothingness means destroying the illusion which connects the physical world with the spiritual plane. According to Buddhism, your spirit cannot separate from your physical body completely because it is still connected to the human world by emotional feelings and desires....

 

Quite vague...and it seems to be written from the perspective of a scholar rather than a practitioner.

 

This is just one model of alchemical development. In Charles Luk's book Taoist Yoga, developing your essential nature is the first chapter, and it quotes masters stating that Taoist alchemy should begin with that for a few different and legitimate reasons.

 

Then I've seen other models which don't talk about this at all...

[Vajrahridaya]

I have no idea. "Crushing the void" is from Yang Jwing Ming's book Embryonic Breathing. Here is what it says:

 

 

 

Quite vague...and it seems to be written from the perspective of a scholar rather than a practitioner.

 

This is just one model of alchemical development. In Charles Luk's book Taoist Yoga, developing your essential nature is the first chapter, and it quotes masters stating that Taoist alchemy should begin with that for a few different and legitimate reasons.

 

Then I've seen other models which don't talk about this at all...

 

I see.

 

Well... the Alayavijnana is I think equated with the four formless jhanas when the unconscious or deep sleep state is illumined through conscious awareness inversion (meditation).

 

Which is where people start experiencing different levels of the Maha Shunya or Great Void as elaborated upon in various traditions.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[steve]

Yes, to me, and Oxford, faith is an unquestioning execeptence of something in the absence of reason,...or as Christians say, faith is the substance of things hoped for.

I prefer Osho's usage -

Belief is the fervent hope that something is true in the absence of proof or reason.

Faith is the confidence that when all belief is discarded, what remains is truth.

(or something like that).

 

Mathematics may be baseless in this universe but you are typing at your keyboard and I am reading what you type.

That's a good thing, I guess...

[C T]

Thanks for sharing! I wonder if that can be equated with the practice of, "emptying the basis" in Mahamudra/Dzogchen?

 

CowTao?

 

Do you know about this reference?

 

In my understanding it means the process of fully emptying the seeds of self identity located in the Alayavijnana stage of contemplation and experience.

Yes, VJ, i am familiar with the reference. The first time i encountered a similarly patterned dawning of this experience, quite like Scotty's, was back in 96. It was during an intensive Yamantaka meditation retreat. I could surmise it as the complete dropping off of all sense of self and other, a fusion of self with all background phenomena - i can recall now that i was postured on a cushion, eyes opened in a kind of Dzogchen stare, just resting the gaze on no particular object, remaining as awareness itself, when gradually this subtle sense of spaciousness simply expanded, and everything contained within the visual field became a hazy whiteness, with beams of rainbow-colored lights piercing thru this haze, and into everything around, including this thing called 'my body'. There was no real, tangible sensation at that particular point. There was no anticipation of anything, and the moment just took care of itself, without a 'me' to direct attention to any particular awareness of any sensation. It was only after the visual field returned to observing all the 'normal' things that made me think that i had 'made it' hahaha.

 

Would this be a fair reference to your understanding of 'emptying the basis'?

 

I later bounced this experience off some of the other retreatants, and also with the retreat leader, and was told its nothing to get too excited over, and that it will happen again and again in line with certain visualization practices undertaken. Was also told that a natural progression from releasing strong clinging to selfhood will also yield similar types of experiences.

 

Later, i got an opportunity to relay this to my mentor, a tulku whom i shall call R, who explained that she was the one who 'empowered' me to that particular unfolding, with the hope that i could learn to rest repeatedly in that non-state as and when it happens again. She encouraged that i should raise awareness around the 'self dropping' part of it, as this will train on, if the practices are kept, to remain more and more lucid during the 'clear light' phase of falling asleep before dreams begin. So apparently its not dreams that we should be lucid about, but that space before dreams begin. She also said that these are the 'symbol-producing functions' of contemplative awareness, and those who has the good fortune to be given Rigpa transmissions will eventually have to get used to them, and repeatedly habituate these functions while learning not to grasp after any of the experiences. This was also a note made by Scotty as well, so the similarities are quite astounding indeed! :)

 

Not too long ago, my partner got hold of a book called Beyond Words. I was flipping thru it recently.... found this quote below, and my heart just dissolved into orgasmic bliss (i'm sure you know the feeling!) :lol:

 

"When one falls asleep, one becomes disengaged from the karmic traces of the material body, the karmic traces of vision, and the karmic traces of of mental functioning. These karmic traces, during the waking state, manifest as one's material body, the external appearances one perceives, and the functioning of one's mind respectively. Why do we speak of being dis-engaged? ... From one's falling asleep right up to the moment when one begins to dream, there is no functioning of the mind and one finds oneself in the real condition of existence. In this, one will experience to a certain degree a merging with what is called the natural, clear light." - - Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Edited August 10, 2011 by CowTao

[Vmarco]

I prefer Osho's usage -

Belief is the fervent hope that something is true in the absence of proof or reason.

Faith is the confidence that when all belief is discarded, what remains is truth.

(or something like that).

 

Mathematics may be baseless in this universe but you are typing at your keyboard and I am reading what you type.

That's a good thing, I guess...

 

Although some might argue that Osho contadicts himself,...to me, I see it as his evolution,...that is to say, things he may have said in 1978, he would not have said in 1988,...for example:

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, VJ, i am familiar with the reference. The first time i encountered a similarly patterned dawning of this experience, quite like Scotty's, was back in 96. It was during an intensive Yamantaka meditation retreat. I could surmise it as the complete dropping off of all sense of self and other, a fusion of self with all background phenomena - i can recall now that i was postured on a cushion, eyes opened in a kind of Dzogchen stare, just resting the gaze on no particular object, remaining as awareness itself, when gradually this subtle sense of spaciousness simply expanded, and everything contained within the visual field became a hazy whiteness, with beams of rainbow-colored lights piercing thru this haze, and into everything around, including this thing called 'my body'. There was no real, tangible sensation at that particular point. There was no anticipation of anything, and the moment just took care of itself, without a 'me' to direct attention to any particular awareness of any sensation. It was only after the visual field returned to observing all the 'normal' things that made me think that i had 'made it' hahaha.

 

Would this be a fair reference to your understanding of 'emptying the basis'?

 

Well... I've experienced what you're saying about and do on a constant basis at this point it just takes a shifting of awareness. Kind of like being aware of every sub-moments moment at the same time as the densely 3 dimensional moment while walking around and doing things. It can be weird at times, as one see's through wall's sometimes, and "read's" too much of the subtle workings of so many sentient beings within a certain radius, their hungry ghosts.. etc. I've learned to control this power, or rather... just align my focus more with less crazy making sub-perceptions.

 

When I say emptying the basis... I think it has more to do with a transmission in the secret instruction, transcending all levels of experiencing as in, emptying the experiencing of the subtle tendency to reify the super conscious levels of experiencing that happens for the most experienced practitioners... of which I am not as of yet.

 

I later bounced this experience off some of the other retreatants, and also with the retreat leader, and was told its nothing to get too excited over, and that it will happen again and again in line with certain visualization practices undertaken. Was also told that a natural progression from releasing strong clinging to selfhood will also yield similar types of experiences.

 

Later, i got an opportunity to relay this to my mentor, a tulku whom i shall call R, who explained that she was the one who 'empowered' me to that particular unfolding, with the hope that i could learn to rest repeatedly in that non-state as and when it happens again. She encouraged that i should raise awareness around the 'self dropping' part of it, as this will train on, if the practices are kept, to remain more and more lucid during the 'clear light' phase of falling asleep before dreams begin. So apparently its not dreams that we should be lucid about, but that space before dreams begin. She also said that these are the 'symbol-producing functions' of contemplative awareness, and those who has the good fortune to be given Rigpa transmissions will eventually have to get used to them, and repeatedly habituate these functions while learning not to grasp after any of the experiences. This was also a note made by Scotty as well, so the similarities are quite astounding indeed! :)

 

Not too long ago, my partner got hold of a book called Beyond Words. I was flipping thru it recently.... found this quote below, and my heart just dissolved into orgasmic bliss (i'm sure you know the feeling!) :lol:

 

Just as you said it... lol. Which is what I meant when I stated a while ago about creating positive samskaras in the brain concerning these states of being that one can shift to during periods of intense negativity in order to integrate the bad into the super duper "all good" states of experiential reference.

 

"When one falls asleep, one becomes disengaged from the karmic traces of the material body, the karmic traces of vision, and the karmic traces of of mental functioning. These karmic traces, during the waking state, manifest as one's material body, the external appearances one perceives, and the functioning of one's mind respectively. Why do we speak of being dis-engaged? ... From one's falling asleep right up to the moment when one begins to dream, there is no functioning of the mind and one finds oneself in the real condition of existence. In this, one will experience to a certain degree a merging with what is called the natural, clear light." - - Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

 

Crystal! Yes... then there is emptying that basis.

 

First merge with the basis, then empty it with further contemplation of dependent origination/emptiness which makes it integratabtle with all levels of being from hell's to heaven's.

 

I think which is why many masters pray to go to hell during their time of departure as to share this with hell beings.

 

Emptying the basis at the very deepest levels of density more dense and rigid than this Earth plane.

[C T]

 

When I say emptying the basis... I think it has more to do with a transmission in the secret instruction, transcending all levels of experiencing as in, emptying the experiencing of the subtle tendency to reify the super conscious levels of experiencing that happens for the most experienced practitioners... of which I am not as of yet.

 

Emptying the basis at the very deepest levels of density more dense and rigid than this Earth plane.

Well, yes, this is very specific to the technicalities of Vajrayana, and i thought it would be inappropriate to go off on a tangent which will derail the subject at hand, hence i drew on sharing as close an approximate experience with Scotty's, and see where it will take us.

 

Suffice to add that according to Longchenpa, the basis is primordially empty and cannot be emptied any further. It is only during the conceptual stages of practice (Method) that one initiates, or is initiated into, via transmissions, to 'seeing' this actual basis (Path), whereupon one then relies on Methods (the various related sadhanas) to gain deeper familiarizations until it begins to bear results (Fruition).

 

Here is Longchenpa's elaboration (for which i apologize to the OP) --

 

"If you see from the standpoint of the essence (of the basis), which is primordially pure, nothing exists, and the lights, forms, and colors of the outer clarity (Phyi-gSal) are not distinguishable. But if you see from the standpoint of the nature of the basis, which is the spontaneously accomplished ultimate sphere, there is the primordial glow, which is the utmost subtle appearances of the five lights, forms, rays, and Thigles in the ultimate sphere. So the nature dwells as the utmost subtle intrinsic wisdom, the inner clarity (Nang-gSal).

 

The nature of primordial purity is spontaneously accomplished. Its ultimate sphere, the utmost subtle primordial wisdom, the inner dwelling presents itself as the subtle appearances of the luminous clarity, the primordial glow. The ultimate sphere is free from the extreme of eternalism as there is no assertion that it is gross outer clarity (projections). It is free from nihilism, as it is asserted as a subtle inner clarity. Thus, the spontaneously arisen primordial wisdom, free from extremes, is non-existent as it is emptiness in its essence, and it is ceaseless appearances in its nature. It is the basis of all the arisings as it is ceaseless in its compassion (power). This is the mode of the true nature of the basis."

 

 

(see, i told ya it will be technical and jargon-laden I dont think this will make sense to some other readers, so lets not pursue the matter, ok dokey?)

[diagons]

Proper activation Heart is absolutely necessary I would say... Otherwise the Eye will see into depths that are not correctly grounded...

 

-Dia:]

Edited August 10, 2011 by diagons

[Vajrahridaya]

ok dokey?)

[steve]

Although some might argue that Osho contadicts himself,...to me, I see it as his evolution,...that is to say, things he may have said in 1978, he would not have said in 1988,...for example:

He contradicts himself frequently. Sometimes evolution perhaps, at other times it is simply the nature of applying language to the that which is inherently paradoxical. He was certainly far from perfect but quite insightful, knowledgable, and an excellent teacher and guide (unless, of course, you were an attractive woman and not interested in his sexual opportunism).

 

One of the things I like to look at is how the personality and cultural biases of a guru is reflected in their apprehension and presentation of spiritual insight. Osho was decidedly opportunistic and extravagant.

[Vmarco]

[tulku]

Then I fear that this life will be a short one for you, the heart is the energy that heals. Whatever you are thinking that you know will be incomplete at best without the heart.

 

You may be privy to some insights, but others will have no meaning.

 

Without even experiencing the heart, how can you know?

 

Whether this life is a short or long one, it is already a matter of no consequence to me.

 

Life and death are all illusion in the great matrix. If I were to die the very next second, then so be it.

 

One is only incomplete without experiencing the void, the source, the emptiness.

 

Without even experiencing the void, the source, the emptiness, how can you know?

 

By the way, when you use the words "fear" and "this life is a short one", i can already tell you are afraid of death.

 

The truly enlightened person isn't afraid of death. One should embrace death as it a blessing to be released from the illusion we call life.

Edited August 11, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

Ah my friend... it was you who pointed to the Void that needs to be traversed on the way to liberation - so it was natural to ask what and how you perceive this Void to be in order to understand where you are going with this, right?

 

I am sure we are all quite familiar with the cliches, but sometimes, when statements about the Void are made, its good to know the speaker's contextual reference. While i understand this may not describe the real article, but at least we get to hope to see the instrument of pointing. If this is not satisfactory to you, by all means just forget i was interested enough to enquire into this.

 

Peace okay?

 

No reference is good enough to describe the void. We know what it is but to actually describe it? Impossible.

[tulku]

The only way to truly transverse the void is with the heart.

 

If you find yourself in the void without heart, that is the end of it, you will think it is enlightenment, and from that perspective it is, as there is nothing left.

 

If you do make it back, there is still much work to be done or undone.

 

One last thing, the only way you know if the intuition is the intuition rather than mind tricks is by checking it with the heart.

 

Are you kidding me? You can only experience the void with the higher mind, the higher consciousness. Only by destroying your ego then can you interact with the void and the heart is one of the biggest supporters of the ego.

 

The truly enlightened person has no feelings whatsoever, no positive nor negative feelings because everything is void, everything is emptiness.

[Vajrahridaya]

No reference is good enough to describe the void. We know what it is but to actually describe it? Impossible.

 

It's easy to describe... the buddha described it. It's in 4 stages.

 

The realm of infinite space

infinite consciousness

infinite nothingness

neither perception nor non-perception

 

There is no reference to time or other in these states of void meditation which is why they are called aspects of the void.

 

Oh... but yeah.. even these do not adequately describe it... eating an apple is far greater than describing it.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[tulku]

It's easy to describe... the buddha described it. It's in 4 stages.

 

The realm of infinite space

infinite consciousness

infinite nothingness

neither perception nor non-perception

 

There is no reference to time or other in these states of void meditation which is why they are called aspects of the void.

 

Oh... but yeah.. even these do not adequately describe it... eating an apple is far greater than describing it.

 

His descriptions is like calling a space shuttle a "flying ship"

[Jetsun]

Are you kidding me? You can only experience the void with the higher mind, the higher consciousness. Only by destroying your ego then can you interact with the void and the heart is one of the biggest supporters of the ego.

 

The truly enlightened person has no feelings whatsoever, no positive nor negative feelings because everything is void, everything is emptiness.

 

So you think an enlightened person is a corpse?

 

Feelings are as natural as the weather and the seasons, the only problem and ego issue is when you cling to them and push them away

[Adishakti]

Yep, you are right. We can certainly work towards activating the pineal gland, but there is no "What is more important." How do people come up with these crass questions I sometimes wonder.

 

Um, no, don't think so and I don't think there's a neat n tidy order to any of it either. Although I do think that if you focus more on certain centres then that "does stuff" but the stuff may or may not be beneficial in the short or long term. I think people forget the long term.