The Chinese Difinition of Chi Kung

[thelerner]

I think part of the issue is that we are discussing a very wide spectrum of practices from myriad different styles and traditions.

 

In general, what we refer to as Qi Gong includes body movement, breathing, and mind intent. In it's broadest sense, this could be considered to included Taijiquan forms and Daoist meditation practices in addition to what we normally would consider Qi Gong and Nei Gong.

 

Some forms and traditions use little or no body movements and these are often referred to separately as Nei Gong but some teachers continue to categorize these methods as Qi Gong, particularly if specific breathing patterns are emphasized.

If there is no physical movement and breathing is not specifically predetermined, we are more in the realm of meditative practices.

 

Some emphasize specific breathing patterns and others de-emphasize breathing in order to achieve natural, unforced breathing. Even when specific breathing patterns are not emphasized, breathing is clearly involved and important and over time will develop in several ways - some obvious and some more subtle.

 

Some techniques focus more on mental manipulations and use of mind intent whereas others de-emphasize this and allow the mind to naturally begin to sense and recognize what is going on internally without setting any preconceived notions or expectations.

 

It's sort of foolish for us to bicker over definitions because there are so many variations.

There may be officially sanctioned definitions but what does that matter?

If a practice is beneficial and follows basic principles, why try and force it into a definition.

Once you learn the basic principles and develop skill, there's no reason not to develop new forms.

A knowledgable practitioner can do this very easily.

 

It's certainly true that there was a relatively recent explosion of Qi Gong related activity, most of which has been developed by opportunists looking to profit from its popularity. Some of these forms make no sense at all. Unless you have some experience and a foundation in traditional methods it's difficult to know how "traditional" and credible many forms are, whether you live in China or elsewhere.

 

IMO this nails it.

[steve]

"Forget about breathing. You will breath naturally."

The practice of natural breathing was very true for a novice. As one progresses in the practice, at higher level, the breathing will be deeper and deeper. You may do natural breathing and stay at the amateur level if you want.

Be careful about brushing off "natural breathing" out of hand.

The practice of natural breathing is a gateway to very advanced breathing practices, including pre-natal breathing.

There is nothing amateur about natural breathing, after all is it not Wu Wei?

[Aetherous]

FYI It's real meaning means breathing exercise. But somebody translated that "qi" as "energy".

 

Breath..."energy"...same meaning.

[ChiDragon]

It's sort of foolish for us to bicker over definitions because there are so many variations.

There may be officially sanctioned definitions but what does that matter?

If a practice is beneficial and follows basic principles, why try and force it into a definition.

Once you learn the basic principles and develop skill, there's no reason not to develop new forms.

A knowledgable practitioner can do this very easily.

 

I do agree with the statement in bold. The basic principles you are referring to, don't they have to be originated from some kind of basic definition. As soon the basic definition was established, then we can go from there. If you say follow the basic principles, where are the basic principles coming from...??

[ChiDragon]

Breath..."energy"...same meaning.

How do you justify that...???

[ChiDragon]

Be careful about brushing off "natural breathing" out of hand.

The practice of natural breathing is a gateway to very advanced breathing practices, including pre-natal breathing.

There is nothing amateur about natural breathing, after all is it not Wu Wei?

Yes, natural breathing is Wu Wei. However, Qigong requires effort for cultivation, thus it was not considered to be Wu Wei.

 

My saying about natural breathing is for amateur because that is the first level of the breathing practice. The second level is to go into deeper breathing and more muscle contractions. Actually, I am trying to describe what is the involvement which is taken place during the different levels of practice. The involvement has to have some kind of basic definitions to make it easier to explain.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[mjjbecker]

"Forget about breathing. You will breath naturally."

The practice of natural breathing was very true for a novice. As one progresses in the practice, at higher level, the breathing will be deeper and deeper. You may do natural breathing and stay at the amateur level if you want.

 

No, natural breathing combined with the correct intent and method leads to non-forced 'early heaven' breathing. This I know not from reading Wikipedia, but from personal experience. Qi is not simply breath, it is not simply breathing. Real qigong is about energy. Not something vague or a play with Chinese characters. That you have no experience of this clearly is unfortunate for you. Perhaps you have not progressed beyond beginners qigong. Perhaps not much beyond Wikipedia, since this is the only source you seem to be able to reference.

 

You presume that because people are not native Chinese that they clearly don't understand anything about qigong or its methods, or definitions as per the Chinese language. Some of us laowai know a good deal more about this than the vast majority of Chinese people.

 

You take this further by attempting to belittle people because they post evidence that does not fit with your world view. That this evidence is from reliable sources is conveniently ignored. It must be wrong because it does not fit with your opinion. I think I will take the instruction of genuine masters over some anonymous internet person.

 

In your attempts to belittle you presume people have no experience or ability in these things. Some of us have experienced high level teachings and experiences. Some of us have been accepted into authentic lineages. Some of us are more than competent at what we practice in these lineages and have official recognition from those lineages.

 

I could not give a fig for your opinion on what is or is not 'qigong'. I only care that no one is mislead by your ignorance in these matters. There is no point in any further discourse with you, as you are incapable of acknowledging legitimate sources or of being polite.

 

I wish you well in your breathing exercises.

[steve]

Yes, natural breathing is Wu Wei. However, Qigong requires effort for cultivation, thus it was not considered to be Wu Wei.

I will freely admit that every Qigong form I've learned from my Shifu was taught with a specific breathing pattern.

I'll add that as we gained skill he told us to experiment with different patterns and styles of breathing, including natural breathing.

There are benefits to be gained through all variations as long as basic principles are followed.

[Aetherous]

Breath..."energy"...same meaning.

 

How do you justify that...???

 

Chuang Tzu is attributed to say that a Taoist breathes through his heels. What this means is that the "energy flow" or respiration process occurs throughout the entire body.

 

Embryonic breathing, the state that is achieved through breathing practice and other methods, is a similar thing...where the person doesn't need to inhale and exhale, yet respiration is occurring. The breath flows through the entire body. Or you could say the energy is flowing through the entire body.

 

You haven't experienced this??

 

If you did, then it'd be easy to see how breath (qi) is the same thing that people call "energy". You wouldn't have to nitpick about various terms and definitions, because in truth they are the same thing.

[Aetherous]

http://literati-tradition.com/qi_breath.html

[ChiDragon]

Some of us laowai know a good deal more about this than the vast majority of Chinese people.

 

No offense, since you had brought it up, we don't call you "laowai", 老外, for nothing...

 

PS...

Since your mind had been made up already. There is no reason to go further, is it...?? Anyway, I tried to share. I apologize for causing all this confusion.

[ChiDragon]

http://literati-tradition.com/qi_breath.html

Yes, another one of those good old explanations from a "laowai". Then all the loawai will use them to be throwing back at us natives. :D

 

This is very amusing.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

ChiDragon speaks doesn't know

 

...

 

Then all the loawai will use them to be throwing back at us natives.

 

Don't be fucking ridiculous.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Scotty

[mjjbecker]

No offense, since you had brought it up, we don't call you "laowai", 老外, for nothing...

 

PS...

Since your mind had been made up already. There is no reason to go further, is it...?? Anyway, I tried to share. I apologize for causing all this confusion.

 

It is a long way from being the worst thing I've been called. One eight year old student called me a motherf****r in the local lingo, not realising I understood what he said. The language children pick up from their parents...I threw the little bastard out of the window and that cured the problem

 

It isn't simply about my mind being made up. I write from personal experience, not simply from what I have read. You could have said from your experience you disagree-that would have been fair enough. The impolite comments directed at my teachers were uncalled for.

 

Yes, you didn't learned from the tradition way. Somebody had reinvented the wheel for you and misinformed you.

 

Frankly, bullshit. You have little knowledge of who I've learned from, what lineages or how correct or incorrect that instruction was. I have no doubt regarding what I've been taught because it has delivered results. In regards to the Hunyuan method, I have quoted the Grandmaster himself on this. I have learned it from direct family members and students. You have no right to be so rude about these people.

 

Sharing is good and most welcome. I hope we can all do that and also be polite to each other while we do.

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon speaks doesn't know

 

Yes! He doesn't know; but he is going to find out and justify how the breath(qi) becomes "energy".

 

He will have to borrow something from the western science for the explanation.

 

The reason we breathe was to capture the oxygen in the air for our body cells. Then, the body cells will use the oxygen to combine with the glucose and convert it into energy. This energy is a biochemical energy called adenosine triphosphate(ATP). Our muscles require this biological useful energy for contraction. Thus we get an indication from this fact if we breathe more oxygen, then our body cells will generate more energy.

 

A simple biochemical energy formula:

Glucose + O2 = H2O + CO2 + Heat + Energy(ATP)

 

The formula indicates:

The increase of Oxygen, O2, will increase the chemical reaction to produce more energy. Hence, the reason for Chi Kung to take slow and deep breathing was to breathe in a maximum amount of oxygen possible in one inhalation. The slowness was for allowing ample of time for the red blood cells to collect the oxygen for the cell respiration enhancement.

 

 

Edited to add:

It is very peculiar. I've posted this information on a Chi Kung website in Hong Kong, nobody dare to argue with me. Even the Chi Kung master didn't say a thing about it. BTW he had some of the similar things posted on his site too.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

Hence, the reason for Chi Kung to take slow and deep breathing was to breathe in a maximum amount of oxygen possible in one inhalation.

 

Actually, breathing and respiration/gas exchange are two entirely different things...there's not an ideal way of breathing for oxygenation of cells. Basically, the autonomic nervous system tells the body when to breathe, so the less you control the inhalation/exhalation process, the better you are breathing. To the point where I believe, if a person is in an embryonic breathing state (no breathing, only respiration), that they are truly functioning efficiently.

 

Taking slow deep breaths can actually decrease the amount of oxygen that's being absorbed, because it's unnatural and sending mixed signals to the brain!

 

If people really want to increase their oxygen intake, then they need to increase their VO2max by doing endurance forms of exercise. Cross country skiing is one of the best ways...they have the highest scores in general.

 

Also, ATP isn't something we perceive (as far as we know). We can only know when there's a lack of it, because our muscles are then incapable of functioning. The "energy" that people talk about is the different sensations and forces that they become aware of through practice.

 

If you wanted to prove that slow deep breathing increased ATP, you'd have to actually do a study on that...testing whether muscles fatigued faster and for longer periods or not, between deep breathers and people who didn't practice breathing. Or actually take samples from deep breathers to see if they had more ATP.

[ChiDragon]

Really.........???

 

Yes, tests has been done on sprint runners. The tests were done based on the lack of oxygen inside the body. They must not consume all of the oxygen in their body before reaching their destiny. They must breathe hard and fast to replace the oxygen that was converted into ATP energy, so they can continue running with their muscles.

 

A sprint runner consumes the oxygen faster than he can breathe. As in chi kung, the oxygen was more provided than it can consume.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

Yep. It's good to study physiology.

 

...

 

Here is some information from a textbook I have (Exercise Physiology: Energy, Nutrition, and Human Performance. Sixth Edition. By McArdle and Katch).

 

"Hyperventilation refers to an increase in pulmonary ventilation that exceeds the oxygen consumption and carbon dioxide elimination needs of metabolism. This 'overbreathing' quickly lowers normal alveolar carbon dioxide concentration and causes excess carbon dioxide to leave bodily fluids via the expired air. An accompanying decrease in hydrogen ion concentration increases plasma pH. Several seconds of hyperventilation generally produce lightheadedness; prolonged hyperventilation leads to unconsciousness from excessive carbon dioxide unloading. (page 272)"

 

Unconsciousness because the brain isn't receiving the oxygen it needs. One of the functions of the respiratory system, and the respiratory centers in the brain, is to detect the carbon dioxide levels in the blood and adjust the breathing rate to maintain homeostasis.

 

We need a certain level of carbon dioxide in order for the body to 'know' that its oxygen levels are good. If we get rid of our carbon dioxide, then gas exchange from the lungs to the blood is compromised, and oxygen consumption actually goes down.

 

"...this small 'background level' of carbon dioxide provides the chemical basis for ventilatory control through its stimulating effect on the neurons of the pons and medullary centers of the brainstem. (page 282)"

 

So if you're breathing a lot of air, you're actually messing with the sensory centers which ensure the correct proportion of gases are in the body...you're not getting more oxygen.

 

If you're going to focus on the breathing, it's best to allow the body to breathe itself, and try your best to abandon control. In other words, to just breathe naturally. I like this paragraph:

 

"Complex mechanisms exquisitely adjust breathing rate and depth in response to metabolic needs. Intricate neural circuits relay information from higher brain centers (motor cortex), the lungs, and other sensors throughout the body to coordinate ventilatory control. The gaseous and chemical states of the blood that bathes the medulla and aortic and carotid artery chemoreceptors also mediate alveolar ventilation. (page 294)"

 

A lot is going on "under the hood"...the body is constantly attempting to bring itself back into balance. Exquisitely! If a person forces their breathing, they are bringing their body out of balance...any effects that they get from such a practice aren't necessarily signs that it's working...they might be signs that what you're doing is using up energy rather than creating it.

 

But dantien breathing can be a sweet and very effective practice if you can do it right.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Scotty

[Aetherous]

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/596electransport.html

 

http://bcs.whfreeman.com/thelifewire/content/chp07/0702001.html

 

These links explain a little bit of the respiratory chain and the electron transport chain. The process creates the most amount of ATP, and produces pure water as a byproduct. In other words, it's absolutely the most efficient and productive part of cellular metabolism.

 

I think this is what's happening when "respiration happens throughout the entire body" or there is embryonic breathing...but that's just me guessing.

 

It's a very complex thing to try and learn from the internet and books. Good to have a physiology teacher to talk with, to help make sense of it.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Scotty

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[dawei]

A question on natural breathing since it is a general question:

 

What if the natural breathing is a breathing habit and not natural breathing?

Which method you use to correct them?

You are not describing where is the breathing occurring, chest or stomach. How is the breathing occur: what happens on inhale and exhale.

 

I think any answer needs to consider what you are calling natural vs habit.

 

And maybe, what is your goal to the breathing? Just to be natural?

[ChiDragon]

A question on natural breathing since it is a general question:

 

What if the natural breathing is a breathing habit and not natural breathing?

Which method you use to correct them?

 

Q

I can only speak for myself to answer your question since I have a little Chi Kung experience. Each individual breathes in a certain way, it can be said to be that is the normal or natural way. It may not be correct because it may a bad habit. Regardless, it is still the natural breathing for this particular individual.

 

Now, we have to define what is the correct way of breathing. A correct way of breathing is to breathe like a baby which is abdominal breathing. The normal sequence is from the nose, to the throat, to the chest, then to the abdomen. Now-a-days, an adult does not breathe like a baby anymore.

 

There are some people only take shallow breaths which will cause chronic illnesses due to hypoxia, the lack of oxygen. To correct this problem, people have to learn to do chest breathing. At first, they have to breath like they normally do. Then try to learn to breathe deeper and deeper progressively inch by inch until the breath reach down to the chest. Then, the ultimate goal was to breathe down to the abdominal like a baby...

 

PS...

Once I bad a breathing problem, I took Tai Ji lessons and practice daily to correct it. At the beginning, I was told to breathe naturally. My natural breathing, at first, was the same way as I was having a problem.

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

I can only speak for myself to answer your question since I have a little Chi Kung experience.

Can you clarify what is a "little" experience? How many years?

[ChiDragon]

Can you clarify what is a "little" experience? How many years?

I started taking Tai Ji lessons since 1975 and practiced until now. I start doing zazen meditation with breathing in last seven to eight years.

[dawei]

I started taking Tai Ji lessons since 1975 and practiced until now. I start doing zazen meditation with breathing in last seven to eight years.

Truly great ! which style ?

 

When did you start Qigong practice and was that taught by another or you put it together based on readings?

 

I am very curious as to the zazen meditation, which seems more zen buddhism based, but will like to hear your story.