All Prophets are Buddhas or How We Decide Who is Enlightened!

[goldisheavy]

Ok, this is what's wrong with your comparison. Corporations are dealing with mundane levels of profiteering. Spiritual traditions do not, but have to succumb to the financial system of support in place either locally or globally in order to maintain the dissemination of information.

 

My comment was about attribution. How and to what do we attribute success? How and to what do we attribute failure? Is the process of attribution a logically cogent one? Is it symmetrical? If we attribute success to the living lineage, why not the failure? Why the gratuitous asymmetry?

 

GIH, you are so proud my dude. You really think you know, but you don't know what you don't know.

 

Yes I am proud and I do think I know what I am talking about. I also think that your lineage did not equip you to talk to me at my level. You're grasping at the straws, son.

[ralis]

VAJ has psychic judgement? Awesome!

 

VAJ, could you give me the hotline/judgement number? It's (almost) just for fun. I've often been interested in seeing how people that irk me (and you do, but it's probably not your fault :-)) see me. Sounds like a full-on ego-trip :-)

 

Has Vajraji sent you his psychic judgment number? I hope the first 10 minutes of judgment are free.

[ralis]

Heres to you Vajraji, Mr. positive.

 

 

 

[Vajrahridaya]

My comment was about attribution. How and to what do we attribute success?

 

A Lineage is made up of individuals and their realizations. Those who are ready to go for it with their entire being, are successful, in whatever good spiritual tradition of whatever goal. Of course this is a process, and it's so complex, to think in black and white dichotomies like you are doing will merely reveal your lack of insight. As an individual, I focus on what is successful for me and those who came to success. In Buddhism, luckily, there are endless examples, because the tradition and the teaching is pretty exhaustive already, simply due to the amount of Buddhas that have come since Gotama in order to comment and clarify.

 

Yes I am proud and I do think I know what I am talking about. I also think that your lineage did not equip you to talk to me at my level. You're grasping at the straws, son.

 

Pompous B.S. My teachers put you to shame. Genuinely.

[Birch]

Has Vajraji sent you his psychic judgment number? I hope the first 10 minutes of judgment are free.

 

No. But now I know where he is, I'll be sure to drop by and have that psychic judgement served up. It's not often you get a opportunity.

 

You're both still as much in love I see :-)

 

In fact, one of the reasons I chose Santi as a teacher was because he offended me somewhat. Not enough to not want to learn what he was teaching but enough to make me go 'hmm, what's up with that?' I also used to find Susan uber scary, Slop a rational dude, SereneBlue weak, Manitou a bit of a hippy/new age BS person. And many of those things changed into something else and keep changing. It's the 'why' they change (or not) that I'm interested in. I still don't think DO is the biz and I still dislike preaching (so if I'm doing it now, shoot me;-) well, not literally :-))

[JustARandomPanda]

I also used to find...SereneBlue weak...

 

 

Actually that is still spot on K. I am weak and I know it. I've had problems with this all my life. All my life with men similar to the way you see Non here with women. He is the self-described 'beta-male'. I was pretty much and still am the 'door-mat'. Stong, chi-balanced women find me irritating as hell cause I get walked all over by manipulative and domineering men. Chi-balanced men usually didn't stick around either as they found me as irritating as the women.

 

That's why I've been a bit puzzled by that 'Why Are Western Women so Messed Up' thread. It's as if there aren't weak-willed/deficient Yin women in the world either. Go figure.

 

Anyway...I've been looking into TCM about it. Lots of interesting stuff there. Things like being deficient in Liver and Kidney jing...stuff like that.

 

Here's one bit of info that made me curious if TCM is right.

 

One day I was sitting in Taco Bueno (a fast food joint similar to Taco Bell ). All of a sudden I felt a massive amount of jing leaking from my eyes. I knew it was Jing because it was definitely sexual energy. It spiraled out of my eyes just like the pattern of a hurricane or vortex. I freaked. I am not able to feel my energy body very well at all. It's one reason why I've always sucked at Qi Gong and stuff like that.

 

Well at the time I thought this was a good thing. Hey! I'm feeling Jing! Something that happens very rarely. Not only that but TONS of it. Why this must mean my cultivation practice is having a good effect! Right?

 

Nope.

 

Imagine my surprise when I later read that the eyes can be a major conduit for leaking one's Jing! It's just that most people aren't able to feel it when it happens. I usually can't. But I felt a major blast of it that day.

 

It now has me wondering if this hasn't been going on for a very long time but I just haven't been able to feel it because I'm so poor at detecting these higher vibrational energies?

 

Anyway I've since resigned myself to accepting that I will never become a strong-willed woman with balls of steel like Shaktimama. It's just not me. I can kinda understand Non in a way when he despairs about being always told to buck up and just be a ballsy alpha male because that's what women want. If he is like me I suspect there may be some sort of energy deficiency stuff going on or even karmic stuff going on that makes such a path exceedingly hard for people like him or me.

 

And of course I don't forget that a lot of the make up of our particular personalities is genetic-based. Not that we're 'hard-wired' but that certain personality tendencies are genetic and thus less under our conscious control.

 

And now...

 

Deep breath...

 

Having said all of that I apologize for spinning this thread OT.

 

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

[Birch]

 

Actually that is still spot on K. I am weak and I know it. I've had problems with this all my life. All my life with men similar to the way you see Non here with women. He is the self-described 'beta-male'. I was pretty much and still am the 'door-mat'. Stong, chi-balanced women find me irritating as hell cause I get walked all over by manipulative and domineering men. Chi-balanced men usually didn't stick around either as they found me as irritating as the women.

 

That's why I've been a bit puzzled by that 'Why Are Western Women so Messed Up' thread. It's as if there aren't weak-willed/deficient Yin women in the world either. Go figure.

 

Anyway...I've been looking into TCM about it. Lots of interesting stuff there. Things like being deficient in Liver and Kidney jing...stuff like that.

 

Here's one bit of info that made me curious if TCM is right.

 

One day I was sitting in Taco Bueno (a fast food joint similar to Taco Bell ). All of a sudden I felt a massive amount of jing leaking from my eyes. I knew it was Jing because it was definitely sexual energy. It spiraled out of my eyes just like the pattern of a hurricane or vortex. I freaked. I am not able to feel my energy body very well at all. It's one reason why I've always sucked at Qi Gong and stuff like that.

 

Well at the time I thought this was a good thing. Hey! I'm feeling Jing! Something that happens very rarely. Not only that but TONS of it. Why this must mean my cultivation practice is having a good effect! Right?

 

Nope.

 

Imagine my surprise when I later read that the eyes can be a major conduit for leaking one's Jing! It's just that most people aren't able to feel it when it happens. I usually can't. But I felt a major blast of it that day.

 

It now has me wondering if this hasn't been going on for a very long time but I just haven't been able to feel it because I'm so poor at detecting these higher vibrational energies?

 

Anyway I've since resigned myself to accepting that I will never become a strong-willed woman with balls of steel like Shaktimama. It's just not me. I can kinda understand Non in a way when he despairs about being always told to buck up and just be a ballsy alpha male because that's what women want. If he is like me I suspect there may be some sort of energy deficiency stuff going on or even karmic stuff going on that makes such a path exceedingly hard for people like him or me.

 

And of course I don't forget that a lot of the make up of our particular personalities is genetic-based. Not that we're 'hard-wired' but that certain personality tendencies are genetic and thus less under our conscious control.

 

And now...

 

Deep breath...

 

Having said all of that I apologize for spinning this thread OT.

 

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

Well, actually SB, I'd revised my original 'prejudice' of you and found your take in the thread pretty strong indeed (in a 'chi-balanced' kind of way even!)

 

It's interesting this Jing stuff. I swear I sometimes see it transferring. Like a heat-haze sort of. It has a 'plasma' like thing about it (I probably shouldn't get too much into this as it's a bit weird and it's like admitting to hallucinations :-)) Not the same as my experience with Shakti which was definitely electric. It also has a specific colour whereas Jing is colourless :-)

 

I was puzzling the other the day about whether I could now voluntarily zap people or not. I was going to ask Susan but on second thoughts I don't think 'small me' gets to decide to zap or not zap. I mean I'd like to be able to, to see everyone wake up - but I think you wake yourself up when you decide to yourself. Zapping or no zapping.

 

TCM is definitely my 'go-to' for most 'ailings' - only because I have a particularly good TCM who gets me results and I have little confidence in traditional docs. But I will consult them and use them on occasion.

 

I'm not sure you can actually ever 'lose' jing on the grand scale of things. It just converts. ZerosTaos post about open and closed systems was interesting and I would love to heat what TaoMeow has to say about it.

[goldisheavy]

A Lineage is made up of individuals and their realizations. Those who are ready to go for it with their entire being, are successful, in whatever good spiritual tradition of whatever goal. Of course this is a process, and it's so complex, to think in black and white dichotomies like you are doing will merely reveal your lack of insight. As an individual, I focus on what is successful for me and those who came to success. In Buddhism, luckily, there are endless examples, because the tradition and the teaching is pretty exhaustive already, simply due to the amount of Buddhas that have come since Gotama in order to comment and clarify.

 

For example look at Dogen's life. Where Dogen was born, in Japan, there was a living tradition. He went to a temple, which is a place of living tradition, and started asking questions. He wasn't happy with the answers. He thought to himself these people are full of shit. Then Dogen went to another temple and asked the same questions. He liked those answers better, so he stayed. Eventually he wasn't happy with the answers anymore and thought they really were lacking. So this second place of tradition has also failed him. Then Dogen left for China, and surprisingly, the abbot left with him. The two of them arrived at China where they met with a guy who was reputed to be best Zen master in all of China. At some point after arriving to China the abbot friend of Dogen died. Dogen stayed with the guy who was reputed to be the best master in China and received a transmission from him. When that was done, Dogen finally realized he heard what he wanted to hear and did what he wanted to do, and so he returned to Japan to start his own lineage there. The established Buddhist authorities in Japan didn't like that idea. So they hunted Dogen for a while and if I remember correctly Dogen had to run away at least once. So here it is again, tradition interfering with Dogen as much as if not more than it's helping.

 

So what happened? Dogen is considered one of the greatest Buddhist masters in Japan, and he is said to be the originator of the Soto lineage of Zen Buddhism. Is Dogen's success thanks to tradition, or is it thanks to Dogen? Why did Dogen kept switching traditions until he heard what he wanted to hear? Something inside Dogen told him in China, "this is it." And frankly we don't even know if the Chinese master was any good. Perhaps Dogen just got tired of running around. Perhaps in all that running Dogen realized something.

 

Well, there was one good thing that came of it. Dogen received a formal document from the master of China. This document looked fancy. It had the names of lineage holders and fancy seals on it. And it authorized Dogen to teach. So it wasn't a complete waste of time. Such documents come in handy when you want to open your Zendo.

Edited July 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

For example look at Dogen's life. Where Dogen was born, in Japan, there was a living tradition. He went to a temple, which is a place of living tradition, and started asking questions. He wasn't happy with the answers. He thought to himself these people are full of shit. Then Dogen went to another temple and asked the same questions. He liked those answers better, so he stayed. Eventually he wasn't happy with the answers anymore and thought they really were lacking. So this second place of tradition has also failed him. Then Dogen left for China, and surprisingly, the abbot left with him. The two of them arrived at China where they met with a guy who was reputed to be best Zen master in all of China. At some point after arriving to China the abbot friend of Dogen died. Dogen stayed with the guy who was reputed to be the best master in China and received a transmission from him. When that was done, Dogen finally realized he heard what he wanted to hear and did what he wanted to do, and so he returned to Japan to start his own lineage there. The established Buddhist authorities in Japan didn't like that idea. So they hunted Dogen for a while and if I remember correctly Dogen had to run away at least once. So here it is again, tradition interfering with Dogen as much as if not more than it's helping.

 

This is the type of fetters that people create and manifest side traditions from that I do not follow. I'm interested in the muscle, not the fat, I'm into the Buddhas, not those that are esteemed without merit, but merely due to family, or birthright, etc. Also, what you may deem fat, another might deem muscle, and both are valid if it evolves the person. Just like Dogen, for a while the answers at one temple played a part, just like with the Buddha. His hindu guru's helped him attain high states of realization, when he saw that they were still limited, though high, he moved on to go deeper. Still, what later was deemed as fat, was necessary for him to advance.

 

It's not so black and white.

 

So what happened? Dogen is considered one of the greatest Buddhist masters in Japan, and he is said to be the originator of the Soto lineage of Zen Buddhism. Is Dogen's success thanks to tradition, or is it thanks to Dogen? Why did Dogen kept switching traditions until he heard what he wanted to hear? Something inside Dogen told him in China, "this is it." And frankly we don't even know if the Chinese master was any good. Perhaps Dogen just got tired of running around. Perhaps in all that running Dogen realized something.

 

We are saying the same thing. And, Dogen's realizations became a tradition, which helped people, and maybe some types of people corrupted some of his teachings over time, whatever... I'm not interested in the corrupted versions of any tradition. The word tradition is not a bad word, it is defined by the individuals experience. If one is diligent in self inquiry, which takes true humility, the meat of a tradition will be found.

 

As you've said, meaning comes from within, not without. For instance you have Catholicism, quite a corrupted tradition when it comes to the Papacy and it's politics. None the less, due to a persons inner diligence, like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, etc. and even Meister Eckhart who was excommunicated for voicing his transcendence of accepted Catholic dogma, there are some Masters on the side of the tradition which I would find inspiring.

 

You are merely disagreeing due to your personal, as you say, "field of meanings."

 

But, I also do think you are wrong when it comes to certain traditions. You think they are fat and I think they are meat. For me, it's a revelation of your lack of experience and insight. For you... it doesn't matter because you'll never concede to being wrong, as you're too proud, you lack humility in my opinion. Also, you are so sure that you are right. That's fine, I am also sure I am right, but it took humility to get here. I honestly understand how it's compassionate to withhold certain methods from individuals if they are not ready for it. It's all about the intention behind withholding them that gives the act genuine meaning of virtue or corruption.

 

Well, there was one good thing that came of it. Dogen received a formal document from the master of China. This document looked fancy. It had the names of lineage holders and fancy seals on it. And it authorized Dogen to teach. So it wasn't a complete waste of time. Such documents come in handy when you want to open your Zendo.

 

Yup, what is fat became necessary in order for the meat to get passed around and digested by other beings, in order for Dogen's words to ignite an enlightened version of the Buddhist tradition.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

But, I also do think you are wrong when it comes to certain traditions. You think they are fat and I think they are meat.

 

I guess you have something specific in mind when you say that, since you use the word "certain." Do you mind telling me which specific traditions do you think I think are fat?

 

As for the rest of your reply, it looks like everything I was trying to say went right over your head.

Edited July 9, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

As for the rest of your reply, it looks like everything I was trying to say went right over your head.

 

Yeah, you're so high GIH, you're so great!!

We are not worthy!

[goldisheavy]

Yeah, you're so high GIH, you're so great!!

We are not worthy!

 

Not "we". Just you.

[Birch]

Yeah, you're so high GIH, you're so great!!

We are not worthy!

 

Oh I KNOW this is between you and GIH, but I tend to enjoy his posts. I find some of them a little 'dry' and intellectual but they do seem to be good for me to read. Anyway. What's wrong with being proud? Seriously? It's one of those backwards things you're supposed to want/not want to do/be again,

 

I suppose if you get proud for the wrong reasons where you're currently at, you might 'stick' there. But can't you let someone at least get there and THEN figure out that it might be a good idea to drop it to move? Besides, if you berate them, they might stick there further. Pointless IMO/IME Mr VJ :-)

[Aaron]

Oh I KNOW this is between you and GIH, but I tend to enjoy his posts. I find some of them a little 'dry' and intellectual but they do seem to be good for me to read. Anyway. What's wrong with being proud? Seriously? It's one of those backwards things you're supposed to want/not want to do/be again,

 

I suppose if you get proud for the wrong reasons where you're currently at, you might 'stick' there. But can't you let someone at least get there and THEN figure out that it might be a good idea to drop it to move? Besides, if you berate them, they might stick there further. Pointless IMO/IME Mr VJ :-)

 

Hello K,

 

For me this notion of pride and humility is all about perception. Pride can be seen as arrogance, a notion that you are better than someone else, especially when it's pride in a belief system, for instance Buddhism, Taoism, or Christianity. I think why most religions and philosophies advocate humility is because it is founded on the principle that we are no better (or worse) than anyone else. It allows us to have a dialogue, rather than a debate and argument.

 

Does that mean pride is wrong? No, it just means it's perceived as being wrong. Humility isn't necessarily good either, it's all about perception. The key to understanding the teachings of any "good" philosophy is understanding that at the root there is no right or wrong, there are just ideas that one can choose to follow or not.

 

Aaron

[Vajrahridaya]

Anyway. What's wrong with being proud?

 

It's based upon a solidified identity.

 

There's a difference between pride and confidence. As far as how I see the experience the word is pointing to anyway.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Not "we". Just you.

 

Yes, Mr. Authority figure. You're so right, I'm so lowly compared to you.

 

Here, I'll be the rug on your floor, how about that?

[ralis]

I have often considered the possibility that Buddhism is nothing more than a traditional cult disguised as something else. After all, cults are defined in part as personality worship of the founder and by extension, all leaders of the movement after the founder passes on.

[Vajrahridaya]

I have often considered the possibility that Buddhism is nothing more than a traditional cult disguised as something else. After all, cults are defined in part as personality worship of the founder and by extension, all leaders of the movement after the founder passes on.

 

So, the Buddha taught the ways of a cult, and all the Buddhas that ever were, were cult leaders?

Edited July 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

So, the Buddha taught the ways of a cult, and all the Buddhas that ever were, were cult leaders?

 

Carefully read what I said. It is the followers that have created the cultist following by creating a Buddhist religion or to frame it more succinctly, personality worship.

[Vajrahridaya]

Carefully read what I said. It is the followers that have created the cultist following by creating a Buddhist religion or to frame it more succinctly, personality worship.

 

So, every single Buddha since the original Buddha that created the different traditions of Vajrayana, Zen, Theravada, etc. are all merely cultish personality worshipers?

[ralis]

So, every single Buddha since the original Buddha that created the different traditions of Vajrayana, Zen, Theravada, etc. are all merely cultish personality worshipers?

 

 

You just don't get it. Your lack of research and curiosity never ceases to amaze me.

[Vajrahridaya]

You just don't get it. Your lack of research and curiosity never ceases to amaze me.

 

No ralis, you don't get it. Your lack of research and curiosity never ceases to amaze me.

 

I'm not interested in the corrupted versions of traditions. I'm interested in following the paths of enlightened beings, of liberated masters. Not the paths of bound, bitter sounding people such as yourself.

 

Why did you leave the community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche? Too much personality worship in your eyes? Everyone didn't get it, but you did, so you are enlightened and don't have to read his books or follow his teachings anymore, because you got everything he had to teach? The way you speak of his students has revealed plenty about your perspective to me. As I've said before, you suffer from "nega-ception"

 

My level of curiosity is reflected by the fact that I've actually studied the texts of all the different traditions, and my curiosity led me to Buddhism, not to old man stuffy views. "Oh, if he doesn't write in perfect English according to my personal level of research and subjective interpretation of it, he must be an ignoramus." That's basically how you see me.

 

Why don't you go dust some shelves ralis.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Informer]

Every religion that has ever existed has been broken into different sects do to differing interpretations, and non of them are complete.

[Vajrahridaya]

Every religion that has ever existed has been broken into different sects do to differing interpretations, and non of them are complete.

 

If the tradition leads to or influences one to Buddhahood, it's complete.

 

What's the definition of complete? When in this malleable universe, elaboration on any single concept can have no end. Then there is nothing that externally fits the ideal of, "complete" as anything can evolve. The Buddhas teaching wasn't complete in that sense, which is why we have Mahayana, Theravada, Zen, Vajrayana, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Gelugpa, etc. These traditions will no doubt further splinter and evolve, but if true to the message of Buddhahood, will not waver from the initial intention, regardless of how it's dressed.

[ralis]

No ralis, you don't get it. Your lack of research and curiosity never ceases to amaze me.

 

I'm not interested in the corrupted versions of traditions. I'm interested in following the paths of enlightened beings, of liberated masters. Not the paths of bound, bitter sounding people such as yourself.

 

Why did you leave the community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche? Too much personality worship in your eyes? Everyone didn't get it, but you did, so you are enlightened and don't have to read his books or follow his teachings anymore, because you got everything he had to teach? The way you speak of his students has revealed plenty about your perspective to me. As I've said before, you suffer from "nega-ception"

 

My level of curiosity is reflected by the fact that I've actually studied the texts of all the different traditions, and my curiosity led me to Buddhism, not to old man stuffy views. "Oh, if he doesn't write in perfect English according to my personal level of research and subjective interpretation of it, he must be an ignoramus." That's basically how you see me.

 

Why don't you go dust some shelves ralis.

 

 

I would term the ashram you were raised in a cult. The belief that Muktananda is the only being that can transmit the shaktipat is cult worship of a personality. That means you see it outside of yourself and are dependent on someone else to give it to you. If that is the case, the dependency is always there.

 

It is entirely possible that I have no need to hang around the Dzogchen community anymore. Perhaps I have evolved beyond that?

 

BTW, there are a number of people who don't speak well of Norbu's students. Most don't behave like mature adults around him. Instead, many are like needy children wanting attention by projecting parental needs onto him! I believe the problem is that most can't handle what is being transmitted. So they act out like the "terrible two's" stage of childhood development.

 

It was always clear to me from the beginning, that Norbu is not my mother or father. I have two parents that are still living and I have no need to project whatever was unfilled in that relationship onto someone else. If someone has difficulty defining their relationship with a teacher, and in this case parental projections, that problem belongs in family therapy and not in any other context.

 

If one is having difficulty handling life, then don't expect living or dead masters to solve one's problems!

Edited July 9, 2011 by ralis