What seems to be the truth...?

[steve]

Who were you before you entered your mother's womb? I hate questions like that. I think it's much easier to ask, if you have never known someone or heard their name, how can you know they exist? If they have not known you, then how can they know you exist? It is not a requirement that someone knows who you are for you to be here, but rather that you are here, but then if you are not really here, where are you?

 

Aaron

It almost sounds like you're saying a memory of someone or a name defines existence. I exist. Names are boundaries...

[Aaron]

Confused?

 

No look. I believe what we (might be) referring to might be as in the 'I am this and that, I was born here and there and I have XYZ values and if you step on them it hurts a mofo. Right. Now I know this. Do you still want me to get rid of it???

 

But I was still born here and there. Before I had a name, I existed.

 

Hello Kate,

 

My point really, is that there being here and now is real, just there is more to it. You drop away your perception of reality and you can understand that there's more to it then that, but that doesn't mean that reality isn't real, nor that it is. In fact it's both. That's why the Zen laymen train so that they can be a part of society again. You chop wood and carry water before you understand and after you do the same thing, only you are aware of what you are doing.

 

The first step to awareness is understanding the underlying nature of the experience and what lies beyond experience. Before you can do that you have to understand experience. Which is not to say that you don't understand now, just that many people are not aware that they understand.

 

Aaron

Edited June 11, 2011 by Twinner

[Aaron]

It almost sounds like you're saying a memory of someone or a name defines existence. I exist. Names are boundaries...

 

That's not what I am saying, it's what I'm asking.

 

Aaron

[steve]

That's not what I am saying, it's what I'm asking.

 

Aaron

I don't think so - but I could be wrong.

[Aaron]

I don't think so - but I could be wrong.

 

Hello Steve,

 

What I am asking is essentially the same thing you're saying, does knowledge cause us to exist or do we simply exist? I think that we simply exist. Why? Because if no one else in the universe knew I existed, I would know, and that existence isn't based solely on my knowledge, but rather from my interaction with the world. So even if these things around me are illusions, or non-permanent, that does not mean that they are not real. They are just as real as I am. The trick is understanding that beyond reality there exists more. Call it the Godhead or whatever. Then the trick is understanding that if you don't believe this to be true, it doesn't matter. Everything will be fine either way.

 

In the end this has nothing to do with truth, because there is no way to prove any of this, so it can't be true, it can only be experienced.

 

Aaron

Edited June 11, 2011 by Twinner

[Bluefront]

'...f*cking drill it to the end'."

 

Right.

 

With most of these practices I end up with 'I don't know'. To the question 'who is writing this?' the answer 'I don't know'.

 

Any advice on what you do with that sucker?

 

Yeah stop being such a whiner and find out. Nobody can tell you how to proceed here. This is YOUR path. Your destruction and Armageddon. Nobody will or can fight your battles for you

 

If there is anything I can recommend it's reading Jed McKenna. Simply because he is a great writer and has excellent talent for speaking about that which cannot be spoken about. His sense of humor is brilliant too, which atleast makes it a fun read. His work could make things clearer. But don't turn for it as a means to an end.

[manitou]

I hate to think that something I said made you jump to another thread.

 

K, if posts about inner cultivation are making you furious, it's because something is coming up in you that needs to be tended to. Best wishes as you get through it, K. The furiousness is there for a reason.

I think the reason you weren't furious at CowTao was because CowTao had a more gentle way of saying pretty much the same thing. CowTao is a shining genius Sage as far as I'm concerned! You may have picked up on my residual arrogance, which may have butted up against any that you have left too. I do apologize for being too direct. I must immerse myself more in CowTao-ism.

Edited June 11, 2011 by manitou

[Birch]

Yeah stop being such a whiner and find out. Nobody can tell you how to proceed here. This is YOUR path. Your destruction and Armageddon. Nobody will or can fight your battles for you

 

If there is anything I can recommend it's reading Jed McKenna. Simply because he is a great writer and has excellent talent for speaking about that which cannot be spoken about. His sense of humor is brilliant too, which atleast makes it a fun read. His work could make things clearer. But don't turn for it as a means to an end.

 

"Yeah stop being such a whiner".

 

Thanks. I recall that phrase from my mother and father right before they used to slap me. I wasn't 'being a whiner' as you put it. And I'm not a buddhist looking for destruction of self either. Otherwise I'd be on a buddhist forum. Yes, I have my 'path' as you put it, and I was asking you about this practice you recommend. Like asking a seasoned meditator about some aspects of theirs.

 

So, if I take a cue from you on the anger thread, I'll suggest I'll stop being a whiner when you stop being an a44.

[Birch]

I hate to think that something I said made you jump to another thread.

 

K, if posts about inner cultivation are making you furious, it's because something is coming up in you that needs to be tended to. Best wishes as you get through it, K. The furiousness is there for a reason.

I think the reason you weren't furious at CowTao was because CowTao had a more gentle way of saying pretty much the same thing. CowTao is a shining genius Sage as far as I'm concerned! You may have picked up on my residual arrogance, which may have butted up against any that you have left too. I do apologize for being too direct. I must immerse myself more in CowTao-ism.

 

 

Thanks Manitou. I see the posts (and posters) who make me furious as an invitation to go see 'what' it is.

 

In regards to yours. It's just all this amends stuff. I don't want to do it as far as my parents are concerned. I feel tears welling when I imagine myself apologizing for being a terrible daughter. Why inflict more pain on myself? I don't get it.

 

Added this excellent link http://www.iraresoul.com/psychology_essays_p1.html

Edited June 11, 2011 by -K-

[Bluefront]

So, if I take a cue from you on the anger thread, I'll suggest I'll stop being a whiner when you stop being an a44.

 

It's not in my interest for you to stop whining or not, so let's not get confused. I don't ask of you to be anything youre not. Nor should it be important to you if I'm an ass or a nice guy.

 

What exactly are you becoming furious about here?

[Birch]

It's not in my interest for you to stop whining or not, so let's not get confused. I don't ask of you to be anything youre not. Nor should it be important to you if I'm an ass or a nice guy.

 

What exactly are you becoming furious about here?

 

 

Oh, good question. Here's what I found when I went looking. I didn't like your tone much. It reminded me (as I said already) of what my parents would say just before they hit me.

 

And I happen to fully disagree with the idea that one should get rid of oneself (per the buddhist exhortion). So there are 2 reasons at least.

 

If it's of no concern to you why bother telling me to 'stop whining'? I don't get it.

[Bluefront]

Oh, good question. Here's what I found when I went looking. I didn't like your tone much. It reminded me (as I said already) of what my parents would say just before they hit me.

 

And I happen to fully disagree with the idea that one should get rid of oneself (per the buddhist exhortion). So there are 2 reasons at least.

 

If it's of no concern to you why bother telling me to 'stop whining'? I don't get it.

 

Ofcourse, it's impossible to say "I believe I don't exist"

It would be insane to agree with that.

I'm not trying to push any opinions on you so you don't have to defend yours.

 

A thought appeared that reminded you of the past. Nothing more, nothing less. But that thought is not you

[steve]

Hello Steve,

 

What I am asking is essentially the same thing you're saying, does knowledge cause us to exist or do we simply exist? I think that we simply exist. Why? Because if no one else in the universe knew I existed, I would know, and that existence isn't based solely on my knowledge, but rather from my interaction with the world. So even if these things around me are illusions, or non-permanent, that does not mean that they are not real. They are just as real as I am. The trick is understanding that beyond reality there exists more. Call it the Godhead or whatever. Then the trick is understanding that if you don't believe this to be true, it doesn't matter. Everything will be fine either way.

 

In the end this has nothing to do with truth, because there is no way to prove any of this, so it can't be true, it can only be experienced.

 

Aaron

Thought is a reflection of experience. Either a recap immediately capturing, explaining, or commenting on experience in the present; or a memory, knowledge (which is memory), as a recollection,; or projecting knowledge (memory) into the future. Thought seems to be related to time.

Is there cause and effect between thought and existence?

It's how our mind likes to look at things but why should there be?

Is there cause and effect without thought putting it there?

[Aaron]

Thought is a reflection of experience. Either a recap immediately capturing, explaining, or commenting on experience in the present; or a memory, knowledge (which is memory), as a recollection,; or projecting knowledge (memory) into the future. Thought seems to be related to time.

Is there cause and effect between thought and existence?

It's how our mind likes to look at things but why should there be?

Is there cause and effect without thought putting it there?

 

 

Hello Steve,

 

An asteroid collides with the earth millions of years in the past and causes just enough change to the environment to allow bacteria to flourish. This bacteria over several millions of years eventually becomes the human species, two hundred thousand years later we ask if there was a cause and effect for that action if we hadn't put it there. Purely from the stance of science and physics, I think the answer is yes. Even in Wu Wei there is cause and effect. Cause and effect are the two sides of the same coin. Cause is the beginning and effect is the end, what we have in between is the rest of the experience. Just because we are describing it as such, doesn't mean it isn't so.

 

Aaron

[steve]

Did you ever read "Time's Arrow and Archimedes Point" by Huw Price?

Time is a funny thing.

Do you think Cause and Effect are time-dependent or -independent?

[Aaron]

Did you ever read "Time's Arrow and Archimedes Point" by Huw Price?

Time is a funny thing.

Do you think Cause and Effect are time-dependent or -independent?

 

 

I think it's dependent. (I actually believe I know this, but to say that would be presumptuous.) Time may seem to be an abstract concept, but in reality it's our awareness of what's going on, but it isn't solely human. Animals are aware of time, so is the rock being worn down by the water. If time didn't exist, then nothing would happen, because there would be nothing to relate it to. Without time you cannot speak, because there is nothing for the thought to exist within. Without time you cannot act, because there is no space for the action to occur. Our thoughts occur during seconds, without those seconds, there is no thought to occur, rather it is stationary with nothing to cause it grow and be.

 

In my metaphysical wacky way of looking at it, it is much like Te arising from Tao. Time arises from space. In essence time is the breath that allows reality to be. Without time reality ceases to be, at least we cannot conceive it as being, and instead we have a void, yes a pregnant void, but one that cannot give birth without the former.

 

Aaron

Edited June 11, 2011 by Twinner

[Birch]

Ofcourse, it's impossible to say "I believe I don't exist"

It would be insane to agree with that.

I'm not trying to push any opinions on you so you don't have to defend yours.

 

A thought appeared that reminded you of the past. Nothing more, nothing less. But that thought is not you

 

I know that stuff. Thank you.

 

 

Hopefully the result of the 'thought from the past' that left me bawling for part of this morning is that it's cleared out.

 

If anyone knows some 'be all and end all' techniques for this, I'm all ears...I'm done with it.

[steve]

I think it's dependent. (I actually believe I know this, but to say that would be presumptuous.) Time may seem to be an abstract concept, but in reality it's our awareness of what's going on, but it isn't solely human. Animals are aware of time, so is the rock being worn down by the water. If time didn't exist, then nothing would happen, because there would be nothing to relate it to. Without time you cannot speak, because there is nothing for the thought to exist within. Without time you cannot act, because there is no space for the action to occur. Our thoughts occur during seconds, without those seconds, there is no thought to occur, rather it is stationary with nothing to cause it grow and be.

 

In my metaphysical wacky way of looking at it, it is much like Te arising from Tao. Time arises from space. In essence time is the breath that allows reality to be. Without time reality ceases to be, at least we cannot conceive it as being, and instead we have a void, yes a pregnant void, but one that cannot give birth without the former.

 

Aaron

Time certainly feels restricted to us but there are some pretty slick Quantum Mechanics experiments that show cause and effect to work both ways.... I'm just sayin'

 

Edit - Oh, and Price's book looks at how this human-linked directional sense of time has no basis in math or physics and profoundly biases our construction and interpretation of experiments. Pretty cool stuff though a little technical for me...

Edited June 11, 2011 by steve f

[Aaron]

Time certainly feels restricted to us but there are some pretty slick Quantum Mechanics experiments that show cause and effect to work both ways.... I'm just sayin'

 

Edit - Oh, and Price's book looks at how this human-linked directional sense of time has no basis in math or physics and profoundly biases our construction and interpretation of experiments. Pretty cool stuff though a little technical for me...

 

 

I've learned a bit about that, at least what you can learn by watching documentaries, but I still tend to take the hard core approach to time. Quantum physics is all and good, but I have to remind myself that most of it is theoretical and can't be proven (yet). As far as our concept of time, did you know that time does not slow down when we are surprised (at least our perception of time doesn't), that's actually a perceptional anomaly. Time is still passing at the same speed, we just believe that it's slowed down. They had actually thought that the opposite occurred.

 

Anyways, it's all hypothetical in the end. There's nothing wrong with discussing it or trying to understand it further, but we should still remember that it's hypothetical, that there are realities that we can concern ourselves with, if we choose.

 

Aaron

Edited June 12, 2011 by Twinner

[manitou]

To get really metaphysical on you, hasn't it been proven that time and space are but an illusion? That both are actually curved and indeed intersect each other?

 

I actually think the quantum physics description of the nature of matter being both a particle and a wave is a really interesting phenomena. If one aspect of matter is a particle (just taking up space) and the other aspect of matter is a wave (of probability), then the wave must be the component of Time. It would take a millisecond of time for the 'wave' to get from point A to point B to determine which probability is going to appear.

 

I think we're sitting at a junction of time and space, but somehow yesterday, today, and tomorrow are All Now. We are our ancestors. We are our descendants. Only time separates us, and it's just an illusion.

[stan herman]

The problem bluefront, is that it exists and doesn't exist. Yes it is an illusion, but it is also real. So it is pointing at something false, but it is also point at something true. It is only when you can see how it is both false and true, that you can truly identify it for what it is and isn't.

 

Aaron

 

Yeah...and it's 'existence' takes so many different forms

The nice thing about its non-existence is that it has only one--none.

[stan herman]

The truth that bothered (still does, but less) me the most was that people lie, not just when threatened, but as a matter of course. The most flagrant liars, seems to me, are those who talk a lot about valuing truth. White-lying (being nice) has become a virtue--'tis an easy virtue.