[TTC Study] Chapter 19 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dawei]

Manifest purity. I don't think they're talking about good and bad here, not in that sense. The words are looking for purity of character in a different sense, in a sense of intentional self-realization. I can be a witness to the fact that walking this path with serious intent for years does indeed produce a more simple and graceful way of life. It seems to happen naturally. Other things fall away of their own accord.

 

I had to go back and look at why I used 'purity' since I did that translation some time ago. The character for that is:

素 = plain, unadorned, nature, white [silk]

 

It may be a stretch in meaning but my mind has a picture of the purity of a Sage; white-like silk 'purity'. So plain and unadorned yet so refined in simplicity. If I just say "manifest plainness and embrace simplicity" I just feel like I loose the silk picture in my head... so there you go!

 

 

I wonder why it says to abandon learning without worry. It doesn't seem that the two go together. I understand abandoning learning; I think what it means is that thinking our left brain alone, the organized information gatherer, isn't going to cut it. We have to leap into the abyss (Castaneda concept) and trust that there really is a 'magical' component which is accessible with the right brain. The way to get the right brain activated is to self examine our psyche, to question our attitudes in particular.

 

But why 'without worry?' I guess he's saying that you don't have to worry about abandoning learning (in this limited sense) even though nobody else in the world will understand this dynamic. As to my own 'learning', I was a total left brain queen until I had a breakdown some years ago, at which time the right brain necessarily opened on a psychiatrists couch for the first time. The learning all merges together anyway, once both dynamics in the brain are working in concert. I guess we just need to abandon the search for more and more external knowledge; there's a time to just Be and let the inner process begin. Striving for great knowledge will only put this process off, as far as I can tell.

 

maybe think of it like this phrase, which also has 'without worries' at the end:

高枕無憂 - retire or rest without worries; sit back and relax

 

I think learning creates concern. (left brain). To lessen learning is to lessen worries since it will more easily give an opening to the intuition (right brain). I think this is the way to activate the right brain, not self-examining or questioning; those are left brain activities. And the four lines I translated seem to be a kind of road back; the Way to do it. As one empties, then one gets truly full.

[manitou]

I had to go back and look at why I used 'purity' since I did that translation some time ago. The character for that is:

素 = plain, unadorned, nature, white [silk]

 

It may be a stretch in meaning but my mind has a picture of the purity of a Sage; white-like silk 'purity'. So plain and unadorned yet so refined in simplicity. If I just say "manifest plainness and embrace simplicity" I just feel like I loose the silk picture in my head... so there you go!

 

 

 

 

maybe think of it like this phrase, which also has 'without worries' at the end:

高枕無憂 - retire or rest without worries; sit back and relax

 

I think learning creates concern. (left brain). To lessen learning is to lessen worries since it will more easily give an opening to the intuition (right brain). I think this is the way to activate the right brain, not self-examining or questioning; those are left brain activities. And the four lines I translated seem to be a kind of road back; the Way to do it. As one empties, then one gets truly full.

 

I agree that the left brain is the method to get acquainted with our character foibles. But I found when I worked the 12 steps (starting 30 years ago) it led to the inner discovery which introduced me to the right brain; that's when I became an artist. It was a sort of convoluted way of getting to the right brain. My left brain was terribly developed because I'm a detective by trade, and I tend to think along evidentiary lines. So my thinking was horribly linear for many years. I probably really went around the long way....the intuition did ultimately appear and take over.

 

Your analogy of the white silk is a very nice one - blowing in a gentle breeze. I can almost hear it.

[lienshan]

Henricks also states that Chapters 17, 18, and 19 should be read together as a unit.

Henricks is right. Here is my explanation why:

 

Chapter 19 was one of Lao Tzu's first chapters written when he was very young!

He commentated six Shen Dao slogans (in bold in my Guodian translation).

Later on, when Lao Tzu had grown mature and developed his brilliant insight,

then he wrote a new commentary (the chapters 17-18) to his own chapter 19:

 

17

Inferior scholars have a great -er -est superior.

Greatest when giving personal praise to him.

Greater when being afraid of him.

Great when insulting him.

Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust?

The fulfilled success of a completed task,

the superlative meaning of the phrase,

is like "myself" being added whenever common people say "I".

18

Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao

resulting in benevolence and righteousness.

The six relations are not harmonious

resulting in filial piety and compassion.

The state matters are muddled and confused

resulting in appropriate officials.

19

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

And the people will benefit a hundredfold?

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

And there will be no robbers and thieves?

Terminate hypocricy, abandon duplicity.

And the people will revert to youngest children?

 

Suppose that forethought lacks?

One orders those three statements.

One being in a position subordinate to.

 

To watch the unadulted protects simplicity.

To diminish privacy lessens wishful thinking.

........................................................................

 

The Chapter 17 refers to the six Shen Dao slogans of chapter 19 by:

"Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust?"

 

These lines in chapter 18:

"The six relations are not harmonious

resulting in filial piety and compassion."

refer to these lines in chapter 19:

"Terminate hypocricy, abandon duplicity.

And the people will revert to youngest children?"

 

These lines in chapter 18:

"The state matters are muddled and confused

resulting in appropriate officials."

refer to these lines in chapter 19:

"Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

And there will be no robbers and thieves?"

 

These lines in chapter 18:

"Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao

resulting in benevolence and righteousness."

refer to these lines in chapter 19:

"Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

And the people will benefit a hundredfold?"

 

Shen Dao had more slogans e.g. "Great Dao" and "Great One".

Shen Dao belonged to the Huang-Lao school and is today named a legalist.

Edited July 7, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Henricks is right. Here is my explanation why:

 

Chapter 19 was one of Lao Tzu's first chapters written when he was very young!

He commentated six Shen Dao slogans (in bold in my Guodian translation).

Later on, when Lao Tzu had grown mature and developed his brilliant insight,

then he wrote a new commentary (the chapters 17-18) to his own chapter 19:

 

At least we have an agreement on this. Yea!!!

[Aaron]

Here's my translation of chapter 19...

 

Put an end to wisdom,

Discard the judgement of humanity

and the people will benefit a hundredfold.

 

Put an end to cleverness,

discard what you value

and the robbers will dissapear.

 

Put an end to your hypocrisy,

discard your concerns with humanity,

and the people will again be like a newborn child.

 

One of these three should not hold a higher place than another,

They are not enough by themselves.

 

Look for the plain,

protect the ordinary

and your private ends will be be diminished

and lessen your own desires.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Looked really good until I got to the last section. I got tongue tied just reading it.

[Aaron]

Looked really good until I got to the last section. I got tongue tied just reading it.

 

HAH! I corrected that.

 

Aaron

[lienshan]

Look for the plain,

protect the ordinary

and your private ends will be be diminished

and lessen your own desires.

Looked really good until I got to the last section. I got tongue tied just reading it.

I have learned the hard way to respect your intuition, Marblehead

Your feedback to us doing translations is really a great help

 

The last section of chapter 19 is a mystery

Nearly all translators treat the eight characters this way:

 

視素 and 保樸 and 少私 and 寡欲

 

but doing so is only grammatically correct with a nineth character 而

where the last "and" is the series (Mawangdui B has 而 in that position)

The alternative is to translate the eight characters as an usual sentence:

 

保樸 of 視素 is 寡欲 of 少私

 

The preferred uncolored of the inspected uncolored is the reduced desire of few grain still on stalks.

 

視 look, see, inspect

素 white fine silk, uncolored

保 protect, take care of, prefer

樸 root of tree, uncolored

少 less, not many, few

私 private, grain still on stalk

寡 less, few, reduced

欲 desire

 

Did Lao Tzu, the brilliant author and perfectionist, not know his grammar?

My approach to translating Lao Tsu is, that I can be wrong but he did no mistakes!

[Marblehead]

My approach to translating Lao Tsu is, that I can be wrong but he did no mistakes!

 

Right!

 

We can misunderstand what was said but if what was said is perfect it is only our misunderstanding that is in error.

[Aaron]

Right!

 

We can misunderstand what was said but if what was said is perfect it is only our misunderstanding that is in error.

 

I think that Lao Tzu was not perfect and capable of making mistakes. I think when we begin to believe someone is incapable of error, then we stop questioning what is being taught and that is a dangerous road to walk down.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

I think that Lao Tzu was not perfect and capable of making mistakes. I think when we begin to believe someone is incapable of error, then we stop questioning what is being taught and that is a dangerous road to walk down.

 

Aaron

 

Hehehe. It didn't take you long to hit me on that one.

 

I agree. Perfection is found only in idealism.

 

I think by my calling myself an Optimistic-Nietzschian-Taoist indicates where I stand on that.

[lienshan]

The Guodian chapter 19 is two texts within one text.
Those knowing the Sheng Dao slogans: Forsake Knowledge Abandon Self read the text this way:

 

Forsake knowledge. Reject debate. The profit of the people is a hundredfold.
Forsake opportuneness. Reject vantage. The thieves and robbers disappear.
Forsake hypocrisy. Reject anxiety. The people returns to the youngest child.
Three slogans considered inadequate command someone in a subordinate position.
The preferred uncolored of the inspected uncolored is the reduced desire of few grain still on stalks.

Those knowing that to regard as matter is to guard the substance of matter read the text this way:

 

The knowledge of forsakenness rejects the debate, that the people will profit a hundredfold.
The opportuneness of forsakenness rejects the vantage, that the thieves will have nothing to rob.
The hypocrisy of forsakenness rejects the anxiety, that the return of the people is the youngest child.
Three sentenses considered a composition. Poor someone commands someone from a subordinate position.
To regard as matter is to guard the substance of matter. Little selfishness is few desires.

The Shanghai Museum published in 2007 a translation of some of Sheng Dao's exavacated writings:

If the worthy are subjected by the unworthy, it is because their quan 權 (authority/power) is light and their position is low. If the unworthy can be subjected by the worthy, it is because the quan of the latter is heavy and their position is honorable. When Yao was a commoner, he could not govern even three people; Jie, as the Son of Heaven, could bring chaos to the whole world. From this I know, that positions of power are sufficient to rely on, and that worthiness and wisdom are not worth yearning for.

 

The position is the keyword in the philosophy of Sheng Dao. That's why Laozi choose to write a two texts in one text. His trick is the characters 乎屬 meaning in a subordinate position or from a subordinate position, depending of the context. But the context depends of how one read ;絕 as the verb forsake or the noun forsakenness; both ways are grammatical correct, because his choice of characters has made it possible.

Edited April 30, 2013 by lienshan

[manitou]

Old thread, new remark.

 

Reading over some of the posts on this thread, it reminds me so much of a paragraph in "Advanced Course in Yogi Philosophy and Oriental Occultism" by Yogi Ramacharaka. He cites a paragraph from a little pamphlet called Light on the Path:

 

 

21. Look for the flower to bloom in the silence that follows the storm; not till then.

It shall grow, it will shoot up, it will make branches and leaves and form buds, while the storm continues, while the battle lasts. But not till the whole personality of the man is dissolved and melted - not until it is held by the divine fragment which has created it, as a mere subject for grave experiment and experience--not until the whole nature has yielded, and become subject unto its higher self, can the bloom open. then will come a calm which as comes in a tropical country after the heavy rain, when nature works so swiftly that one may see her action. Such a calm will come to the harassed spirit. And, in the deep silence, the mysterious event will occur which will prove that the way has been found. Call it by what name you will. It is a voice that speaks where there is none to speak, it is a messenger that comes - a messenger without form or substance - or it is the flower of the soul that has opened. It cannot be described by any metaphor. But it can be felt after, looked for, and desired, even amid the raging of the storm. The silence may last a moment of time, or it may last a thousand years. But it will end. Yet you will carry its strength with you. Again and again the battle must be fought and won. It is only for an interval that nature can be still.

[Marblehead]

That's actually pretty nice. Thanks for sharing.

[dust]

19, I'm here to resurrect thee

 

I do not read ancient Chinese, but have been having fun trying to figure some out. Something is bothering me though.

 

Can anyone explain to me why on the Guodian bamboo, the characters usually listed as "乎屬" (column 3 rows 11-12) do not seem to actually be those 2 characters...?

[Taoist Texts]

Can anyone explain to me why on the Guodian bamboo, the characters usually listed as "乎屬" (column 3 rows 11-12) do not seem to actually be those 2 characters...?

these 2?

 

 

[dust]

Oh christ, sorry, not row 3! Row 2! (it's a Sunday...I've been napping...)

 

[dust]

I'm certainly out of my depth, and sure that the experts who transcribed this stuff have it right, but I just really would like to know what I'm missing. The history of each character 乎 and 屬 fit nowhere with what I see here..

[Taoist Texts]

The variations of the first char. in diff. copies

 

http://ctext.org/text.pl?node=11610&if=en&show=parallel

 

are 有，所 ， 乎

 

 

to me that char. looks a lot more like suo than hu

 

 

 

 

a variation of the above.

 

 

As to the second char., this being a complicated char. on a meager bamboo slip, the scribe simplified it to the fullest retaining only the 2 base elements and discarding the top completely.

 

 

Note the retained middle roundel and the supporting vertical strokes.

[dust]

The variations of the first char. in diff. copies

 

http://ctext.org/text.pl?node=11610&if=en&show=parallel

 

are 有，所 ， 乎

 

 

to me that char. looks a lot more like suo than hu

 

 

 

 

a variation of the above.

 

 

As to the second char., this being a complicated char. on a meager bamboo slip, the scribe simplified it to the fullest retaining only the 2 base elements and discarding the top completely.

 

 

Note the retained middle roundel and the supporting vertical strokes.

 

I had considered 所, as it certainly looks more like that than the considered alternatives.

 

As far as 属...I still don't see it.

 

Either way, why is it that these transcriptions of the GD have characters that are clearly not in the original?

 

On ctext, for example, in chapter 46, it is listed as

 

禍莫大乎不知足

 

but to my eyes it looks much more like

 

化莫大於不知足

 

which another source confirms...

 

These sources continue to differ in their transcriptions, which makes me feel like the safest way is to be doubtful about all of it...

[Michael Sternbach]

Rules often achieve the opposite of what they are meant for.

[dust]

Rules often achieve the opposite of what they are meant for.

 

 

Which rules are we referring to..?

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Which rules are we referring to..?

 

Rules which are perceived as unnecessary restrictions tempt to overstep them. You know, the Yin/Yang thing.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[dust]

絕智棄辯 民利百倍 Refute wisdom, abandon discussion, and the people will profit a hundredfold;

絕巧棄利 盜賊亡有 Refute skill, abandon profit, and there will be no more thievery;

絕僞棄慮 民復季子 Refute falseness, abandon scheming, and the people will return to innocence;

三言以為文不足 But these three sayings alone are not enough

或命之或所屬

見素保樸 少私寡欲 Cherish simplicity, lessen selfishness and desire

 

That's what i've got so far. Not satisfied with anything i've come up with for the missing part.

 

 

 

edit: apparently the character I had written instead of 僞 can't be shown. Based on the bamboo, I had written

 

為 +

心

 

http://www.zdic.net/z/8e/js/2287A.htm

Edited September 9, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

Well, I have no problem with it so far.

 

I would like to mention the last phrase of Line six:

 

It does not read "abandon selfishness and desire." it reads "lessen selfishness and desire." This is a major difference between Taoism and many, if not most, schools of Buddhism.

 

Taoism understands that these two are a part of our true nature.