Spiritual Development and Siddhis

[Sunya]

Actually its an absolute requirement.

 

"If you cannot do a full wake induced real time OBE, with full reentry, it is highly unlikely you will be able to induce a full kundalini raising....If you disagree with this dream on...."-Robert Bruce

 

Now why does Robert say this?

 

If you cannot OBE whenever you want to, it means you have not mastered trance and energy work.

 

1- Who cares what Robert Bruce says? With all due respect to him, he's not the end all be all, a living Buddha if you will.

 

2- Kundalini raising does not require mastering trance or energy work. There are many ways to awaken kundalini. Devotional prayer, creativity, physical yoga, or just spontaneously are ways that this can happen without doing any out of body stuff at all.

 

I see you're very rigid. Why does everything have to be so black and white? You gotta leave room for more plurality instead of one ring to fit them all type thinking.

[RongzomFan]

Kundalini raising does not require mastering trance or energy work. There are many ways to awaken kundalini. Devotional prayer, creativity, physical yoga, or just spontaneously are ways that this can happen without doing any out of body stuff at all.

 

 

 

I never heard anyone raise their kundalini except Robert Bruce. You are saying there are others? Do you have any documentation?

[Sunya]

I never heard anyone raise their kundalini except Robert Bruce. You are saying there are others? Do you have any documentation?

 

Wow.

[RongzomFan]

Wow.

 

 

I am not talking about all those people who experience some kind of energy movement in their energy body and call that kundalini.

 

Not every energy movement is kundalini, even if its breath taking. By that low standard, I would be a veritable kundalini master.

 

Even Gopi Krishna's extreme energy movement is not kundalini.

 

Or some people dream about a snake and call that kundalini. Is this what you believe?

Edited January 20, 2011 by alwayson

[Sunya]

I am not talking about all those people who experience some kind of energy movement in their energy body and call that kundalini.

 

Not every energy movement is kundalini, even if its breath taking. By that low standard, I would be a veritable kundalini master.

 

Even Gopi Krishna's violent energy movement is not kundalini.

 

Or some people dream about a snake and call that kundalini. Is this what you believe?

 

No. Kundalini is the awakening of the subtle wisdom energy that when enters and rises through the central channel begins a purification process and eventually brings about nondual realization.

 

I highly doubt Robert Bruce was the only person to experience this, lol.

[RongzomFan]

No. Kundalini is the awakening of the subtle wisdom energy that when enters and rises through the central channel begins a purification process and eventually brings about nondual realization.

 

 

Thats sounds very buddhist.

 

The only thing the buddhists have right is Dzogchen. Everything else is clearly corrupted teachings....lost in translation from India.

[RongzomFan]

I highly doubt Robert Bruce was the only person to experience this, lol.

 

 

No hes not.

 

But I think he is the only currently known person.

[Sunya]

Yes it does sound Buddhist. The only difference is that the Buddhists don't worship the energy and view it as self-existing and the energy of the universe. It's the inherent purifying wisdom energy of the individual which is of course intertied with everything else.

 

I don't think tantra was corrupted at all. There have been unbroken lineages stemming from the Mahasiddhas of India.

 

Anyway, who cares about this? Who cares who says this or who says that? Just practice and gain your own experience...

[Cat Pillar]

Hello CowTao,

 

This is what i have observed as i mingle with my spiritual friends and teachers from different traditions - and i have done observing and mingling over the last 20+ years - those who are genuine cultivators generally have around them a sense of wonderment and non-expectation, and are quite indifferent to their own well-being, for they seem to be always doing something for the welfare and benefit of others. In my opinion, these 3 states of beingness are in themselves siddhis of sorts, for without them, of what good are other powers? One has to bear in mind that most do not set out to cultivate these 3 states... it extends out from within the heart, and forms some sort of magnetic field around them, making others want to come into their presence for no apparent reason other than simply sharing in this 'glow'. Moreover, i do not believe that these 3 qualities are cultivatable in themselves, that they bloom as a sort of bonus of having a sincere and integrated path of cultivation and practice.

 

That sounds like a very nice way of being. I'd like to experience that...such a fluid way of life. That is what exemplifies internal peace to me, those qualities you talk about. What you believe cannot be cultivated, is what I'd like to cultivate.

 

I am willing to believe that with a sense of wonderment and non-expectation, many of the things we deem 'dull' and 'routine' and 'mundane' are, to these individuals, anything but... perhaps this is what sets them apart, and how they are able to be always grateful for the smallest surprise, or kind act from others, and ever compassionate toward the smallest hurt, anguish and pain they feel in others, which somehow, we tend to often miss, even though we like to think we are so 'spiritual', and have our eyes and chakras wide open. Perhaps, again, it is precisely the growth of these 2 qualities that enable the actualization of the third state - that of altruistic intent and actions, without which all other complementary siddhis become empty, meaningless and nullified.

 

That state is what I idealize. My inability to consistently live up to this ideal causes a lot of internal conflict for me.

 

I suppose to a degree this observation is in accord with what Forest had mentioned, that siddhis have more to do with karma.

 

I can see why.

 

Thank you, Cat Pillar

 

You're welcome! Although I'm not sure what you're thanking me for.

 

... and welcome to TTB!

 

Thank YOU for the welcome. And the reply.

 

---------------

 

Sunya,

 

Yes I agree. Robert's method is his own and his "requirement" (which I see more as a recommendation) isn't absolute. I've never had a bona fide OBE and had spontaneous 'classic' Kundalini experiences, but I stopped them luckily from going further because I wasn't ready, had more mind training to do, and had to focus on graduating.

 

Are you working on raising Kundalini now, or are you still focusing on training/graduating?

 

About siddhis, well it depends what you mean. In Buddhism, the highest siddhi is seen as enlightenment. If you mean powers that control reality, being able to fly or whatever, then I would say that I have no clue since I never experienced them. Some Buddhist traditions such as Vajrayana develop siddhis and see them as beneficial. Others like Zen view them as a waste of time, though I don't think any Buddhist school denies their existence, that they come about naturally, and that the enlightened have access to them.

 

It was sort of a general thing, although I suppose my intent was mostly towards the siddhis that directly/indirectly affect reality (including things like clairvoyance).

 

Thanks for your reply!

[Vajrahridaya]

"the minimum requirement before anyone even thinks about raising their kundalini would be to develop wake induced OBE ability, plus good trance and energy body control." -Robert Bruce

 

"As I have often said, learn how to achieve OBE first, multiple times, and then think about kundalini." -Robert Bruce

 

This is entirely his subjective opinion and not at all based upon the scriptural texts surrounding kundalini awakening in the Hindu Tantra or Shaivite Tantra traditions from which the term originates. Kshemaraja and Abhinavagupta categorized the different levels of kundalini awakening and Shaktipat from a living adept of the kundalini tradition in various texts known as scripture in the Trika or Kashmir Shaivite tradition. There is no need to master OBE and other such things, which start to happen naturally when kundalini is awakened, or as I like to put it, when awareness is catalyzed by an adept and coaxed through the inner layers of individual consciousness.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

I am not talking about all those people who experience some kind of energy movement in their energy body and call that kundalini.

 

Not every energy movement is kundalini, even if its breath taking. By that low standard, I would be a veritable kundalini master.

 

Even Gopi Krishna's extreme energy movement is not kundalini.

 

Or some people dream about a snake and call that kundalini. Is this what you believe?

 

By your assertions, you obviously have no experience of kundalini, so should not talk so much as if to presume that you know because you read a book by a guy named Robert Bruce. Robert Bruce is not a master on the tradition from which the term Kundalini comes from so his assertions should be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to know more about kundalini and what type of phenomena is called kundalini from the traditions that coined the term, you would be better off reading the text, "Triadic Heart of Shiva", by Paul Muller Ortega who is a genuine scholar, teacher and student of the tradition from which the term kundalini comes from.

 

Also read texts translated by Mark S. G. Dyczkowski, Douglas Renfrew Brooks, Jaideva Singh and other such scholars all of which can be found on amazon.

Triadic Heart of Shiva

 

Only then will you have at least a conceptual idea of the true traditions surrounding the phenomena of kundalini directly from the original texts that talk about it in depth from India over a thousand years ago.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

Back on topic...

 

everyone ALREADY HAS SIDDHIS already.

 

You just need to learn a bit about trance and energy work to access these siddhis.

[forestofemptiness]

Regarding siddhis and karma, the bottom line short answer is that siddhis are beyond our control. We can no more choose to cultivate a specific siddhi than we can choose to become a famous actor or professional athlete. These fruits require a certain amount of luck, natural talent, and drive.

 

In other words, a siddhi comes when a person possesses the potential and the proper methods of cultivating it. Without the potential, no amount of cultivation will help. This often is a problem with mediators who practice in a tradition that isn't suited to them. For example, some people are great at having visions and others aren't. Yet some people will find themselves in a tradition that emphasizes visions, even though they tend to be more feeling or auditory oriented in their spiritual experiences.

 

Personally, I have had some experience with siddhis and I can say they have nothing to do with spiritual development; although spiritual development makes them easier to access. Further, I have found that they are inconsistent and unreliable.

[Vajrahridaya]

I never heard anyone raise their kundalini except Robert Bruce. You are saying there are others? Do you have any documentation?

 

You really need to widen your study on the phenomena of kundalini before you start believing everything you hear from one person named Robert Bruce.

 

You should loosen up your grasping and open your mind to more information. There is so much documentation, "Daughter of Fire" by Irena Tweety, "Play of Consciousness" by Swami Muktananda, also Gopi Krishna most definitely did have his kundalini awakened, and not gently because it wasn't catalyzed by a Master, like it is talked about in these books.

[Vajrahridaya]

Everything else is clearly corrupted teachings....lost in translation from India.

 

Complete hogwash. The Tibetans have all the source scriptures in both sanskrit and tibetan translations with scholars that knew both and carried on the tantric tradition from India with great care to detail. You really should study more before you make such assertions with such absolute rigidity.

 

So, you're saying that the reading of your English translations of Indian traditions are more clear?

[Vajrahridaya]

Personally, I have had some experience with siddhis and I can say they have nothing to do with spiritual development; although spiritual development makes them easier to access. Further, I have found that they are inconsistent and unreliable.

 

For us Padawans... yes, I must agree, and can even be totally distracting from the higher spiritual fruit.

 

Like thought pushing, and energy manipulation in other peoples bodies or going into other peoples dreams and such things, all not recommended for anyone interested in spirituality, unless you are genuinely doing this stuff for the spiritual benefit of other beings.

[Gerard]

...Like thought pushing, and energy manipulation in other peoples bodies or going into other peoples dreams and such things, all not recommended for anyone interested in spirituality, unless you are genuinely doing this stuff for the spiritual benefit of other beings.

 

Very true, the power of healing others is the greatest of all, alleviate suffering, the driving force of existence as a result of constant change.

 

Here you can watch real siddhis, the ones that matter the most:

 

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-2173642525917926602&q=shamanistic+healing+duration%3Along&total=39&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4#

 

 

 

He must have been a one amazing healer.

[Sunya]

Are you working on raising Kundalini now, or are you still focusing on training/graduating?

 

Well I'm still in school, but I'm less worried about going crazy now. I'm focusing more on surrendering and seeing experience as without a self. As for trying to raise kundalini, yes and no. I see 'trying to raise kundalini as an ego trying to become enlightened. Once I actually had a sincere experience, I realized that 'I' cannot pass, so I wasn't ready for that. Be careful what you wish for. In my experience, purification is much more important than trying to raise energy or gain powers. The ego does not become enlightened. If you awaken kundalini without purification, all the unconscious crap will come out and it won't be pleasant. Better clean your house first and explore the attic before bringing in the light that reveals everything, lol. Kundalini will come about naturally. There's no need to focus on it. This happens when the proper conditions are there.

 

Now I'm focusing on purifying the body/mind through Tibetan tsa lung exercises (Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's book Healing with Form as well as his new DVD are great for this).

Edited January 21, 2011 by Sunya

[fiveelementtao]

In my experience, purification is much more important than trying to raise energy or gain powers. The ego does not become enlightened. If you awaken kundalini without purification, all the unconscious crap will come out and it won't be pleasant. Better clean your house first and explore the attic before bringing in the light that reveals everything, lol

 

Well said!

[Vajrahridaya]

Well said!

 

I concur. My kundalini was awakened spontaneously through just looking at a picture of a master at the age of 14, went really heavy at around 20 with lots of practice, got crazy with siddhi bombardment at about 24/25. I'm 35 now and still a little crazy, but much more acclimatized.

 

It's better to just focus on virtue and purification, the rest should come naturally.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I concur. My kundalini was awakened spontaneously through just looking at a picture of a master at the age of 14, went really heavy at around 20 with lots of practice, got crazy with siddhi bombardment at about 24/25. I'm 35 now and still a little crazy, but much more acclimatized.

 

It's better to just focus on virtue and purification, the rest should come naturally.

 

 

Bravo!!!

[Astral_Anima]

In response to Alwayson's statement that RB is the only known person and Frostofeemptiness's statement that siddhis are up to karma, I pose a question (which of course applies too all here)... What about those of the Lei Shan Dao? Certainly for those who have read Magus of Java, hearing of the now infamous level4 Mo Pai, think about what's involved. You gather energy in your LTT, then you force MORE energy in there, then you mobilize it, then you merge it with the base of your spine and all your "powers" come out. Base of the spine is known to be where the kundalini resides. Not to mention the whole "extremely painful" "risk of death" "Like having lightning running through your body" thing. It sounds to me like THAT is the REAL kundalini. Energy movement up the spine and even 3rd eye awakenings comes just from level 1 that stuff falls short in comparison to level 4.

 

I'm sure other sects achieve it as well, but it seems to be just a step in the path, a beginning more than an end. Plus why kundalini? If you believe in karma, just be a good person, focus on virtue. If you're looking for immortality go follow one of the daoist schools and forget kundalini, jus follow your teacher (and hey maybe it'll come), if you're doing it for powers...well that should be observed.

 

With great power comes great responsibility. If you're not in control of yourself, or don't trust you'd use them wisely then it's best to focus on virtue first or at LEAST simultaneously. The karma of cursing out a bad driver and shooting an energy blast at his car causing a 5 car pile up and maybe a few lives...o.O is GREATLY different. For most people it's probably better they don't have powers

 

Thats just my personal take on things.

-Astral

[Cat Pillar]

Well I'm still in school, but I'm less worried about going crazy now. I'm focusing more on surrendering and seeing experience as without a self. As for trying to raise kundalini, yes and no. I see 'trying to raise kundalini as an ego trying to become enlightened. Once I actually had a sincere experience, I realized that 'I' cannot pass, so I wasn't ready for that. Be careful what you wish for. In my experience, purification is much more important than trying to raise energy or gain powers. The ego does not become enlightened. If you awaken kundalini without purification, all the unconscious crap will come out and it won't be pleasant. Better clean your house first and explore the attic before bringing in the light that reveals everything, lol. Kundalini will come about naturally. There's no need to focus on it. This happens when the proper conditions are there.

 

I've heard this warning about Kundalini many times, and respect it. Although, your post made me realize once again, I don't really know what is ego and what is not. All I know must be ego, if I cannot make the distinction.

 

I wish I had a teacher...or, apparently, that I was ready for one...

 

----------------------

 

I'm sure other sects achieve it as well, but it seems to be just a step in the path, a beginning more than an end. Plus why kundalini? If you believe in karma, just be a good person, focus on virtue. If you're looking for immortality go follow one of the daoist schools and forget kundalini, jus follow your teacher (and hey maybe it'll come), if you're doing it for powers...well that should be observed.

 

I'm looking for my path...my Way. I want to be in harmony with the Universe, rather than feeling separate and discordant with it. I want that flowing ease of being, that effortless form of existence. Whatever comes with that is window dressing, icing on the cake. I'm just curious what that path might look like, and whether siddhis are likely to be a part of it.

[RiverSnake]

I've heard this warning about Kundalini many times, and respect it. Although, your post made me realize once again, I don't really know what is ego and what is not. All I know must be ego, if I cannot make the distinction.

 

I wish I had a teacher...or, apparently, that I was ready for one...

 

 

It's been my experience that the easiest way to pin the ego is through the "F" word:

 

-Fear...the egos primary tool of controlling you is through fear.

 

-It's also been my experience that when you remove fear from your mind things flow naturally and things fall into place.

[Astral_Anima]

I've heard this warning about Kundalini many times, and respect it. Although, your post made me realize once again, I don't really know what is ego and what is not. All I know must be ego, if I cannot make the distinction.

 

I wish I had a teacher...or, apparently, that I was ready for one...

 

----------------------

 

 

 

I'm looking for my path...my Way. I want to be in harmony with the Universe, rather than feeling separate and discordant with it. I want that flowing ease of being, that effortless form of existence. Whatever comes with that is window dressing, icing on the cake. I'm just curious what that path might look like, and whether siddhis are likely to be a part of it.

 

I hear ya on trying to find your way. Up until recently I was trying to find mine too. Although I'll tell ya, my teacher certainly didnt "find" me, I made the effort to learn what was out there and decided on what resonated with me the most. Most teachers who actively seek students really only have like 2-3 reasons to do so.

1.) They don't want their art to die. In the case of Wang Liping his teachers sought him out to continue the tradition of their lineage.

2.) They're really energy Vampires. They want to be worshiped, they want your time and your energy( and YOUR MONEY!!!). These are usually the ones who go about parading as "Masters" but when asked for "proof" or a demonstration of their "mastery" they give stupid excuses and say you should just be able to "know", basically the same thing with faith and religion. Anything that depends on faith for existence is an illusion/trick/lie. If they can't objectively demonstrate mastery then they have no right to mascaraed as a master.

3.) It's possible some may get lonely and feel isolated and disconnected and thus want to meet others who share similar interests. just a thought, no idea either way.

 

Personally I believe a true "master" who cares about the individual's growth (and not their own social status) will give the student a practice and perhaps some minor guidance and leave the rest to the student. Ultimately the work is up to you. A teacher can say, sit in lotus pose for 4 hours while focusing on the lower dan tien and it takes 1 min, however for you the practitioner it may take a long time before you reach that level of ability (depending on your current state). It is my belief that genuine masters will simply give you a practice and leave you to do it (unless of course they're trying to measure your progress, or perhaps empowerments/minor healings)

 

Likewise it's usually a good idea to know what you want out of your practice, why you do it. From my understanding there's two basic labels that paths fall under. Firepath & waterpath.

Firepath, again from my understanding, is a "building" process. It starts by bringing energy from the earth up the spine. Usually it uses alot of "forceful methods" think kundalini yoga. It forces energy through channels, forces blockages open. However it takes alot of dedication and hard work. Think "Martial Arts". This is usually phsyically demanding but mentally pretty safe.

Waterpath, from my understanding, is a dissolving process, instead of building up you're letting go. It starts by bringing the energies of heaven and celestial realms down through the crown and into the body. This is the opposite of force, you have to be able to let go of everything, just relax and let energy take it's natural course. This tends to be very powerful and very fast if one lets it. However alot of people (men especially) have trouble "letting go". From my experience this method awakens the bodily intelligence and allows energy blockages to dissolve and lets the energy "do its thang". This is usually physically pretty light, but causes powerful psychological changes very quickly. Think Shamanistic.

 

A quick list of most of the practices that I've looked at and seemed worth it and powerful to me, based on my research.

1.) Spring Forest Qigong

2.) Mo Pai/Lei Shan Dao

3.) Kunlun

4.) Celestial Nei Kung (Also check out the "Thunder Wizard" link!)

5.) Stillness/Movement Neikung

 

Talk to others and see what they recommend and why. Explore different paths and see what each has to offer until you find one that resonates strongly with you. Personally if you're looking for "flowing" and "effortless" I suggest you at least look into Kunlun and some of the talks Max gives. Also I would look into Vipassana (spelling?) or if it's you're calling perhaps look into the Essenes. Best to give energy arts a trial period (usually a few weeks) to give it a chance to work on ya.

 

Anyway sorry to write an essay and strain your eyes if you've read this long. Best of luck on your Journey

-Astral

 

Edit: Concerning "ego". This seems to be a new age term that's almost as loose as the word "love". Most "gurus" use it to label any personality traits that don't appeal to them. Most "masters" prefer moldable clay, people with no ability to think or judge, with no personality because they're easier to control that way. Ego, to me, is simply being out of touch with yourself. I don't believe in becoming an "impersonal being" because if everyone becomes impersonal being then wouldn't that go against impersonal being's wishes to create personal beings? But anyway, don't get sucked into the whole "ego" thing. Use Vipassana, contemplate deeply the cause of all things. Constantly observe and question your behaviour, question your beliefs, question everything. Just make sure you stay grounded, lest you bump your head on the way down the rabbit hole

Edited January 21, 2011 by Astral_Anima