Cat Pillar Posted January 19, 2011 I'm curious about something. Can you fully develop spiritually without ever experiencing "powers"? Or is that a necessary part of development? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
King Kabalabhati Posted January 19, 2011 I'm curious about something. Can you fully develop spiritually without ever experiencing "powers"? Or is that a necessary part of development? Â Abilities seem to be a natural part of cultivating because cultivation is all about harmonizing with the universal powers, which means that those powers become available, or maybe: we come available to those powers as empty vessels and clear channels. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeiChuan Posted January 19, 2011 Abilities seem to be a natural part of cultivating because cultivation is all about harmonizing with the universal powers, which means that those powers become available, or maybe: we come available to those powers as empty vessels and clear channels. Â This. I Find it very unlikely that someone wouldn't have any progress in siddhis if they're actually progressing a great degree. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiveelementtao Posted January 19, 2011 I'm curious about something. Can you fully develop spiritually without ever experiencing "powers"? Or is that a necessary part of development? Siddhis do not automatically represent spiritual development. Spiritual development is measured by emotional maturity and compassion. Siddhis represent energetic development. It is possible for someone to have both. It is also possible to have only one. I have personally met and/or trained with a few different individuals who had powerful siddhis but were also very emotionally immature, destructive and selfish. Â At one time I believed that the only way for someone to gain siddhis was by progressing spiritually. Now, however, because of my experience, I view siddhis as energetic weight lifting. If someone has big muscles, it probably means that they exercise alot. Sidhhis means someone does alot of energy work... Â Siddhis are fun and can be used to help others and oneself. But it does not mean spirituality. Get a couple siddhis and you will know what I mean... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted January 19, 2011 I'm curious about something. Can you fully develop spiritually without ever experiencing "powers"? Or is that a necessary part of development? Â Â Of course its necessary. For example, Robert Bruce has said in numerous places that you cannot raise kundalini until one has mastered wake induced OBE and preferably other abilities such as clairvoyance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted January 19, 2011 Siddhis are fun and can be used to help others and oneself. But it does not mean spirituality. Get a couple siddhis and you will know what I mean... Â Yes, more people actually use their siddhis to advance their selfish desires and even criminal activities than for use in spiritual pursuits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Yes, more people actually use their siddhis to advance their selfish desires and even criminal activities than for use in spiritual pursuits. Â Â Hou would you know that? It seems like the people who have psychic abilities are actually "love and light" New Age type of people. Â Anything can be used for both good and evil. You can use your hands to punch someone in the face, or help a fallen old person. Edited January 19, 2011 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted January 19, 2011 Hou would you know that? It seems like the people who have psychic abilities are actually "love and light" New Age type of people. Â Because I know it through lots of experience with people and the streets of various big cities in the USA. With insight not dependent on only the 5 senses. Â On this Earth, at this time, there are more dark psychics than light psychics. Hopefully that will change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sloppy Zhang Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Well the extent of either one depends on your tradition.  As has been pointed out, you can get siddhis without being spiritually developed.  Depending on the tradition, and/or your development, you may be spiritually advanced without presenting any siddhis.  In Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics", energy development techniques that lead to siddhis are part of the spiritual progress of the magician- prior to uniting with God/Divine Consciousness/whatever, the magician masters the three spheres (physical, astral, mental). As a master of the three spheres, it would only make sense that he or she could levitate, walk on water, be clairvoyant, astral project, control the weather, interact with spirits, heal, etc etc  Now the downside to this would be that if you get sidetracked, you would be thrown off of your spiritual cultivation track. But the upsides to it are that you study and learn as you go, seeing universal truths reflected in each of the spheres.  Now, other traditions maintain that after achieving full blown spiritual realization (insight into the nature of everything and what-have-you), one is naturally able to perform siddhis because, well, you realize the fundamental nature of the universe. As many people have put it, you have "the master key", so why bother yourself with collecting keys to individual doors? So these traditions would disregard any other type of development (gathering small keys) in favor of just focusing on getting to the final goal (the master key, which does the job of everything else).  The downside to this is that, well, you have very few signs that you are making progress. Since you aren't working on working out your energy muscles, and are just working on the full blown spiritual realization, well... until you have the realization, you don't have the realization, and since you aren't working on developing anything else, you don't get anything else. This insight could be instantaneous, or it could take lifetimes. The upside is, well, it's fairly "direct". BOOM, you got everything.  Depending on the type of person you are, you might find style of development to be more preferable. Edited January 19, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiveelementtao Posted January 19, 2011 Of course its necessary. For example, Robert Bruce has said in numerous places that you cannot raise kundalini until one has mastered wake induced OBE and preferably other abilities such as clairvoyance. Well, I know very little about Robert Bruce so that argument carries little weight with me. I would be much more persuaded if you brought your own experience to the debate instead of simply parroting another New Age teacher. I watched a few minutes of his free video and I was not very impressed. In my estimation, He did not show a well defined understanding of energy work outside of the basic New Age homogenized version. But, in his defense, I did not watch very much of it so, perhaps he got better... However, even assuming that he is a good teacher, I must say that Robert Bruce is just another human being and that is his human opinion based on his human experience. My human experience has taught me something different. I also don't think he understands what the word "kundalini" means. I believe he is mistaking prana for kundalini. He is not alone. Many New Age teachers make this mistake... And IME, OBe's and clairvoyance do not require kundalini nor are they a sign of significant spiritual or even energetic development. I have experienced both of these phenomena and most people can easily experience them and they do not require the awakening of kundalini. So, if he believes that these low level siddhis are a result of kundalini, then I question his yogic education on what kundalini actually is... Â Once again my experience has taught me that these types of "siddhis" are very easy to experience and also very hard to verify. Anyone can have them and anyone can manufacture them in their own minds and then claim to have "raised their kundalini"... sounds like the typical New Age hook that people use to sell books. again just my opinion based on my experience... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sloppy Zhang Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Well, I know very little about Robert Bruce so that argument carries little weight with me. I would be much more persuaded if you brought your own experience to the debate instead of simply parroting another New Age teacher. I watched a few minutes of his free video and I was not very impressed. In my estimation, He did not show a well defined understanding of energy work outside of the basic New Age homogenized version. But, in his defense, I did not watch very much of it so, perhaps he got better... However, even assuming that he is a good teacher, I must say that Robert Bruce is just another human being and that is his human opinion based on his human experience. My human experience has taught me something different. I also don't think he understands what the word "kundalini" means. I believe he is mistaking prana for kundalini. He is not alone. Many New Age teachers make this mistake... And IME, OBe's and clairvoyance do not require kundalini nor are they a sign of significant spiritual or even energetic development. I have experienced both of these phenomena and most people can easily experience them and they do not require the awakening of kundalini. So, if he believes that these low level siddhis are a result of kundalini, then I question his yogic education on what kundalini actually is... Â Once again my experience has taught me that these types of "siddhis" are very easy to experience and also very hard to verify. Anyone can have them and anyone can manufacture them in their own minds and then claim to have "raised their kundalini"... sounds like the typical New Age hook that people use to sell books. again just my opinion based on my experience... Â Well I think some of the videos he's been releasing lately are rather deceptive in regards to their reflection of his knowledge. I've found that someone who's read one of his books, like Astral Dynamics or NEW Energy Ways, would not find much new material in the videos. And on top of that, the videos progress kind of slowly. Â I would highly recommend looking at his book "Astral Dynamics", or even in "NEW energy ways". Skip right past the intros and the testimonials and the journal entries, and get into his energy development method/projection method. His energy development system is pretty solid, I think. He shows a good knowledge of the energy body, and different points to focus on. His method of development starts with the smaller energy centers (like in the joints, hands, feet, etc) before working on the higher energy centers (the chakras). Â I haven't looked seriously into his explanation or instruction on kundalini, because for me that's not a point where I'm at. Â For general energy body stuff, it seems pretty well thought out/experimented with. He said he developed it through his own personal experience. I've seen similar descriptions of the energy body/energy development in other works by other authors (some completely unrelated). While it's possible one or the other, or both, could have been drawing from the same source (or even from each other), I still think that his method of instruction and his system are pretty solid. Â While he may be categorized as "new age" based on the time of his writing, the manner in which he developed his system (some people erroneously equate "learning on own" and "developing through personal experience" with "fabricated with no basis", "fraudulent", and "unreliable"), and the circles within which his material is passed (the new age circle), I for one would not categorize his material at all with that other fluff that is passed around and taken seriously in those same circles. Edited January 19, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiveelementtao Posted January 19, 2011 Hi Sloppy, well as i said, I didn't really watch very much, So perhaps I will give him another looksee. I have great respect for personal experience. Many on this forum seem to have a great deal of respect for him, so I may be getting distracted by the initial presentation rather than the content. It does sound as though he is using the word kundalini in the typical new age understanding which is just to paste that word onto any energy experience. Kundalini is such a loaded word because it carries with it the idea of spiritual awakening or enlightenment. I think alwayson exemplified this with his assumption that simply because RB says that kundalini is necessary for OBE's that therefore anyone who accomplished such and such a siddhi must therefore be spiritually advanced because RB says it requires "kundalini" (and therefore spiritually advanced). This is one of my pet peeves when it comes to the new age understanding of energy terms. people make alot of assumptions without critically thinking about what they are assuming with the use of such terms and then continue to create faulty arguments based on faulty assumptions allowing their personal agendas and emotions to affect their thinking process. Â Thanks for your input sloppy 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted January 19, 2011 Hi Sloppy, well as i said, I didn't really watch very much, So perhaps I will give him another looksee. I have great respect for personal experience. Many on this forum seem to have a great deal of respect for him, so I may be getting distracted by the initial presentation rather than the content. It does sound as though he is using the word kundalini in the typical new age understanding which is just to paste that word onto any energy experience. Kundalini is such a loaded word because it carries with it the idea of spiritual awakening or enlightenment. I think alwayson exemplified this with his assumption that simply because RB says that kundalini is necessary for OBE's that therefore anyone who accomplished such and such a siddhi must therefore be spiritually advanced because RB says it requires "kundalini" (and therefore spiritually advanced). This is one of my pet peeves when it comes to the new age understanding of energy terms. people make alot of assumptions without critically thinking about what they are assuming with the use of such terms and then continue to create faulty arguments based on faulty assumptions allowing their personal agendas and emotions to affect their thinking process.  Thanks for your input sloppy  Don't criticize me, when you don't even read what I wrote. I said mastering OBE is necessary before one tackles kundalini, not the other way around LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted January 19, 2011 The teachers I trust the most have said that siddhis have nothing to do with enlightenment, but rather with karma. Â On the other hand, I find the process itself is a wonderful siddhi. I can fit all of you in my innermost being, and still there's room for more. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiveelementtao Posted January 19, 2011 Don't criticize me, when you don't even read what I wrote. I said mastering OBE is necessary before one tackles kundalini, not the other way around LOL Â I did read your post. You very clearly said that siddhis were a sign of spiritual development and used Robert Bruce's kundalini quote to illustrate your point. and it still represents your unsubstantiated assumption that only spiritually advanced people can raise their kundalini. Â So, if you are now saying that siddhis and Kundalini are NOT a sign of spiritual development, then you are at cross purposes with yourself and your post is illogical. Â always, My experience of your posts is that you leap to conclusions based on your emotional agenda without really analyzing your thought process... and once again, you would be more persuasive if you could share your personal experiences rather than someone else's opinion... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) This is what you said  I think alwayson exemplified this with his assumption that simply because RB says that kundalini is necessary for OBE's that therefore ...   This is what I actually said:  Robert Bruce has said in numerous places that you cannot raise kundalini until one has mastered wake induced OBE...   I think you really are clueless on multiple levels. You probably still don't get it LOL Edited January 20, 2011 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiveelementtao Posted January 20, 2011 This is what you said     This is what I actually said:     I think you really are clueless on multiple levels. You probably still don't get it LOL  Yes, I did quote you inaccurately. My apologies.  Nevertheless, your original post was to argue that siddhis are a sign of spiritual development. So, let's stay on topic. Your argument then is actually an argument against the topic of siddhis being a sign of spiritual development because you say that according to RB, someone must first be able to exhibit clairvoyance and OBEs before awakening kundalini... So, If what you say is true, (assuming that kundalini is also necessary for spiritual development), then you are arguing against yourself, at least in terms of the siddhis of OBE's and clairvoyance...  You also did introduce another unspoken and unsubstantiated assumption which is that raising kundalini is a de-facto sign of spiritual development. Based on my experience, I disagree.  So, if you can make some reasoned arguments from your own personal experiences without attacking anyone on a personal level, that would also lend weight to your arguments... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cat Pillar Posted January 20, 2011 Thanks for your replies, everyone.  King Kabalabhati,  Abilities seem to be a natural part of cultivating because cultivation is all about harmonizing with the universal powers, which means that those powers become available, or maybe: we come available to those powers as empty vessels and clear channels.  I suppose if I were an empty vessel, a clear channel, I would not have any apprehension towards siddhis.  ---------------  fiveelementtao, Siddhis do not automatically represent spiritual development. Spiritual development is measured by emotional maturity and compassion. Siddhis represent energetic development. It is possible for someone to have both. It is also possible to have only one. I have personally met and/or trained with a few different individuals who had powerful siddhis but were also very emotionally immature, destructive and selfish.  I should have been clearer with the intent of my question...it was not my intent to ask if siddhis represent spiritual development, but rather if they were a natural aftereffect of such. Although you do address that later in your response.  Siddhis are fun and can be used to help others and oneself. But it does not mean spirituality. Get a couple siddhis and you will know what I mean...  I'm not so sure I really want siddhis, hence my question. My perception of them is that they appear to usually be a lot more trouble than they're worth. Granted, I have no personal experience with them so my opinion is biased and based on other people's experiences and opinions...but I have started to question if they're worth the effort to develop.  ---------------  alwayson,  Of course its necessary. For example, Robert Bruce has said in numerous places that you cannot raise kundalini until one has mastered wake induced OBE and preferably other abilities such as clairvoyance.  I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Bruce's techniques, but I'm not so certain about this particular assertion. I have read that some people experience Kundalini awakenings without any intention or practice directed towards it. I don't have any direct quotes to support this (and unfortunately don't have the time to look for them) but my impression of what Robert was saying was more along the lines of a recommendation that Kundalini not be pursued until one has already mastered OBE and other abilities.  ---------------  Sloppy Zhang,  Now, other traditions maintain that after achieving full blown spiritual realization (insight into the nature of everything and what-have-you), one is naturally able to perform siddhis because, well, you realize the fundamental nature of the universe. As many people have put it, you have "the master key", so why bother yourself with collecting keys to individual doors? So these traditions would disregard any other type of development (gathering small keys) in favor of just focusing on getting to the final goal (the master key, which does the job of everything else).  Although Bardon's pathworking involves direct cultivation of siddhis, he makes a kind of indirect agreement with this. If I remember correctly, he often states that focusing exclusively on certain abilities to develop them to a high degree is pointless and unnecessary, as once one becomes a Master all these things will come to you anyways.  The downside to this is that, well, you have very few signs that you are making progress. Since you aren't working on working out your energy muscles, and are just working on the full blown spiritual realization, well... until you have the realization, you don't have the realization, and since you aren't working on developing anything else, you don't get anything else. This insight could be instantaneous, or it could take lifetimes. The upside is, well, it's fairly "direct". BOOM, you got everything.  I like how you stated this. While I'm apprehensive about siddhis in general, perhaps a balanced approach would be best for me. Mostly because it would provide some more obvious signposts of progress.  I also agree with your analysis of Mr. Bruce's work. Were you aware that he's studied Hermetic (specifically Bardon) magic as part of his path? IIH is a book he highly recommends.  ----------------  forestofemptiness,  The teachers I trust the most have said that siddhis have nothing to do with enlightenment, but rather with karma. On the other hand, I find the process itself is a wonderful siddhi. I can fit all of you in my innermost being, and still there's room for more.  That's interesting. Would you be able to expound more on that, specifically about the karma aspect?  Thanks again for your replies, everyone! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) but my impression of what Robert was saying was more along the lines of a recommendation that Kundalini not be pursued until one has already mastered OBE and other abilities.   "the minimum requirement before anyone even thinks about raising their kundalini would be to develop wake induced OBE ability, plus good trance and energy body control." -Robert Bruce  "As I have often said, learn how to achieve OBE first, multiple times, and then think about kundalini." -Robert Bruce Edited January 20, 2011 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cat Pillar Posted January 20, 2011 "the minimum requirement before anyone even thinks about raising their kundalini would be to develop wake induced OBE ability, plus good trance and energy body control." -Robert Bruce  http://www.saltcube.com/files/RobertBruce_PostsOnKundalini_2004.pdf   And he has said the same thing many times  Thank you for finding the quote, alwayson. Again, while I respect Mr. Bruce greatly, and I understand his reasoning behind this precaution, I do not believe this is worded so as to imply that raising Kundalini is dependent on mastery of the mentioned skills. Rather, I believe these are his guidelines for the earliest it would be safest to pursue the raising of Kundalini.  If your understanding is the same, I apologize for the mistaken inference otherwise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Thank you for finding the quote, alwayson. Again, while I respect Mr. Bruce greatly, and I understand his reasoning behind this precaution, I do not believe this is worded so as to imply that raising Kundalini is dependent on mastery of the mentioned skills. Rather, I believe these are his guidelines for the earliest it would be safest to pursue the raising of Kundalini. Â If your understanding is the same, I apologize for the mistaken inference otherwise. Â Â No its not a "precaution" Â His kundalini method uses his energy body system. He has openly shared what his kundalini method is previously. It is based on the methods in Astral Dynamics. Â you really DO have to master OBE Edited January 20, 2011 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cat Pillar Posted January 20, 2011 Ah, I believe I misunderstood your context. Yes, I can see how Robert's method would be dependent on mastering previous skills. However, I do believe that others have successfully (and safely) awakened Kundalini using other methods that did not have OBE as a prerequisite. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted January 20, 2011 This is what i have observed as i mingle with my spiritual friends and teachers from different traditions - and i have done observing and mingling over the last 20+ years - those who are genuine cultivators generally have around them a sense of wonderment and non-expectation, and are quite indifferent to their own well-being, for they seem to be always doing something for the welfare and benefit of others. In my opinion, these 3 states of beingness are in themselves siddhis of sorts, for without them, of what good are other powers? One has to bear in mind that most do not set out to cultivate these 3 states... it extends out from within the heart, and forms some sort of magnetic field around them, making others want to come into their presence for no apparent reason other than simply sharing in this 'glow'. Moreover, i do not believe that these 3 qualities are cultivatable in themselves, that they bloom as a sort of bonus of having a sincere and integrated path of cultivation and practice. Â I am willing to believe that with a sense of wonderment and non-expectation, many of the things we deem 'dull' and 'routine' and 'mundane' are, to these individuals, anything but... perhaps this is what sets them apart, and how they are able to be always grateful for the smallest surprise, or kind act from others, and ever compassionate toward the smallest hurt, anguish and pain they feel in others, which somehow, we tend to often miss, even though we like to think we are so 'spiritual', and have our eyes and chakras wide open. Perhaps, again, it is precisely the growth of these 2 qualities that enable the actualization of the third state - that of altruistic intent and actions, without which all other complementary siddhis become empty, meaningless and nullified. Â I suppose to a degree this observation is in accord with what Forest had mentioned, that siddhis have more to do with karma. Â Thank you, Cat Pillar... and welcome to TTB! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sunya Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Ah, I believe I misunderstood your context. Yes, I can see how Robert's method would be dependent on mastering previous skills. However, I do believe that others have successfully (and safely) awakened Kundalini using other methods that did not have OBE as a prerequisite. Â Yes I agree. Robert's method is his own and his "requirement" (which I see more as a recommendation) isn't absolute. I've never had a bona fide OBE and had spontaneous 'classic' Kundalini experiences, but I stopped them luckily from going further because I wasn't ready, had more mind training to do, and had to focus on graduating. Â About siddhis, well it depends what you mean. In Buddhism, the highest siddhi is seen as enlightenment. If you mean powers that control reality, being able to fly or whatever, then I would say that I have no clue since I never experienced them. Some Buddhist traditions such as Vajrayana develop siddhis and see them as beneficial. Others like Zen view them as a waste of time, though I don't think any Buddhist school denies their existence, that they come about naturally, and that the enlightened have access to them. Edited January 20, 2011 by Sunya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Yes I agree. Robert's method is his own and his "requirement" (which I see more as a recommendation) isn't absolute.   Actually its an absolute requirement.  "If you cannot do a full wake induced real time OBE, with full reentry, it is highly unlikely you will be able to induce a full kundalini raising....If you disagree with this dream on...."-Robert Bruce  Now why does Robert say this?  If you cannot OBE whenever you want to, it means you have not mastered trance and energy work. Edited January 20, 2011 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites