how do i breathe w/ the tan t'ien?

[beoman]

How exactly does one breath w/ the tan t'ien? Does that mean that physically, the tan t'ien area of my body should be expanding and contracting when I breathe in and out, respectively?

 

I understand the difference between breathing with your chest and breathing with your abdomen. I used to move my whole chest when i breathe, but now when i breathe, my chest stays still and my upper abdomen moves. i'm not sure if I do it entirely correctly, though. I heard that the body gets much more oxygen this way. however, i feel i can take much deeper breaths if i allow my chest to move as well.

 

the way it is now, if i breathe in deeply using my abdomen, i feel a hardness in my solar plexus, and if i insist on breathing more deepy my chest starts to hurt too. this is why I think i'm breathing w/ my solar plexus at the moment, as i clearly feel that part of my body. i can't clearly feel my tan t'ien when i breathe at all, though.

 

any tips/suggestions/comments? does breathing w/ the tan t'ien just mean focusing on that area mentally and then breathing normally?

 

EDIT: I can get my lower abdomen to expand on an inhalation if i really tense my abs when breathing, but this doesnt seem too natural. It also seems strange that lower abdomen would expand considering the lungs stop at your ribcage

Edited July 26, 2010 by beoman

[WallaMike]

Dear Beoman:

Regarding your comment: "if i breathe in deeply using my abdomen, i feel a hardness in my solar plexus", this is probably because with abdominal breathing the diaphragm lowers down as it contracts and that increases pressure in the solar plexus area (just below the bottom of the ribs). The diaphragm is a muscle that looks like an upside down pie plate or domed saucer that is attached to the bottom of your ribs and divides the lungs from the intestinal cavity. When you breath in, the pie plate flattens out and compresses the intestinal contents, which you feel often in the solar plexus or lower, depending upon what type of breathing you are doing, such as reverse or regular abdominal breathing.

Regarding your question of "breathing with the tan tien", if I were you, I would ask for more clarification from the person who you got this from, as from my experience I was taught to breathe into, not with, the tan tien area. However, there several different definitions of the tan tien, as well as several ways to interpret how it works and where it actually is. Based upon what a person is meaning, it could make perfect sense to breath with the tan tien. However, I think you are already thinking along the lines that I would think, which is that they were telling you to expand and contract the tan tien or the tan tien area as your breath. This increases your awareness of the area and exercises it. A good first step.

The tan tien area, from what I know, is that it is not a specific area that you can dissect out physically, but an area that you can definitely feel, move, and strengthen, once you get mentally connected to it. What you are doing seems to be one way of doing that.

Last, you can get a deeper breath by expanding the chest. Mainly with abdominal breathing, the goal is to learn how to do it so as to allow air to go deeper into the bottom of the lungs and fill that part, with the chest expanding last, to fill up the mid and upper parts of the lungs. Abdominal breathing is often taught to help correct bad habits of breathing, as only doing chest breathing is very limited. BK Frantzis has a nice DVD on Taoist Breathing, if I recall the name of the DVD correctly, that you might look into. You can see it at: www.energyarts.com/.../Taoist-Breathing-for-Chi-Gung-and-Meditation-CD.html - Cached

 

I hope this is helpful.

WallaMike

[Encephalon]

a little anatomy goes a long way.

 

and

[Starjumper]

I used to move my whole chest when i breathe, but now when i breathe, my chest stays still and my upper abdomen moves. i'm not sure if I do it entirely correctly, though.

 

No it's not correct, your tan tien is in your lower abdomen, not upper.

[beoman]

Dear Beoman:

Regarding your comment: "if i breathe in deeply using my abdomen, i feel a hardness in my solar plexus", this is probably because with abdominal breathing the diaphragm lowers down as it contracts and that increases pressure in the solar plexus area (just below the bottom of the ribs). The diaphragm is a muscle that looks like an upside down pie plate or domed saucer that is attached to the bottom of your ribs and divides the lungs from the intestinal cavity. When you breath in, the pie plate flattens out and compresses the intestinal contents, which you feel often in the solar plexus or lower, depending upon what type of breathing you are doing, such as reverse or regular abdominal breathing.

Regarding your question of "breathing with the tan tien", if I were you, I would ask for more clarification from the person who you got this from, as from my experience I was taught to breathe into, not with, the tan tien area. However, there several different definitions of the tan tien, as well as several ways to interpret how it works and where it actually is. Based upon what a person is meaning, it could make perfect sense to breath with the tan tien. However, I think you are already thinking along the lines that I would think, which is that they were telling you to expand and contract the tan tien or the tan tien area as your breath. This increases your awareness of the area and exercises it. A good first step.

The tan tien area, from what I know, is that it is not a specific area that you can dissect out physically, but an area that you can definitely feel, move, and strengthen, once you get mentally connected to it. What you are doing seems to be one way of doing that.

Last, you can get a deeper breath by expanding the chest. Mainly with abdominal breathing, the goal is to learn how to do it so as to allow air to go deeper into the bottom of the lungs and fill that part, with the chest expanding last, to fill up the mid and upper parts of the lungs. Abdominal breathing is often taught to help correct bad habits of breathing, as only doing chest breathing is very limited. BK Frantzis has a nice DVD on Taoist Breathing, if I recall the name of the DVD correctly, that you might look into. You can see it at: www.energyarts.com/.../Taoist-Breathing-for-Chi-Gung-and-Meditation-CD.html - Cached

 

I hope this is helpful.

WallaMike

 

I think I probably meant "breath into the tan tien". thanks for the comments about the diaphragm and the role of the chest in breathing, that makes a lot of sense to me. I also think I get the point of the exercise now - to have increased awareness of that area. i'm still not sure whether i should forcibly contract my muscles when doing it, but perhaps i'll try it both ways and see what I feel is best.

 

I did at some point recently distinctly feel like there was a ball in that area.. maybe i should work on getting that feeling back! i also remember it being very easy to visualize a ball and feel something about 6 years ago when I was 15.. maybe it was something else, or maybe it was easier to do these energy exercises then. i hadn't heard about qigong or meditation or anything related w/ chi by that point, though, so i didn't try practicing

Edited July 26, 2010 by beoman

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well, I suggest you get the book "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" by B.K. Frantzis, because a good breathing technique (which he has called "Longevity Breathing") is explained really well there.

 

Basically, the abdomen breathing is not the only thing that should be moving. Not only the front of your belly should expand, but also the sides of your belly, as well as the back of your belly.

 

While you don't breathe from the front of the chest, having the lungs expand forward, you breathe from the upper back, having the lungs expand to the back, as well as breathing from the sides of your chest, as the lungs expand to the side of your chest.

 

This is something that if you aren't used to, will take some practice.

 

In an older book by William Walker Atkinson on yogic breathing, he does mention that there's a full type of breath in which everything, including the top of the chest (which he says most people breathe from to begin with, causing shallow breathing), expands. There have been some situations in which I get the sudden impulse to breathe from the front of my chest, as well as with everything else, and in those situations I do so, but I don't do it all the time, and I don't feel the need to do it all the time either. It's kinda like stretching- when you need to do it, it feels good, but there's no point in doing it all the time (at least for me, anyway).

 

Furthermore, trying to breathe, or trying to lead the breath, will lead to strain. In my experience, if you LET the breath come in, the whole process becomes much easier.

 

As you want to breathe, relax everything, and let the air come in naturally. Try to "follow" the breath, not "lead" it. The breath, and the energy within the breath, and the feeling of the breath, should lead. When this happens, you naturally let the energy and the awareness fall, and it naturally sinks to the dantien, and then as you exhale, naturally rises from the dantien and goes out.

 

It's kinda tricky to explain, but basically, you want to let the process happen by itself. Because it will happen by itself. If you get out of the way and let it happen.

 

In this way, you can maintain a relaxed state, not strain, get a good, strong, natural energy flow, and avoid all the problems with overdoing it.

[Vajrasattva]

1st start with deep belly breathing and relaxation of all muscles.

 

try inhaling 4 sec exhaling 8 sec.

 

let the abs expand like a balloon on the inhale let the navel move back towards spine on the exhale.

[donjitsu2]

How exactly does one breath w/ the tan t'ien? Does that mean that physically, the tan t'ien area of my body should be expanding and contracting when I breathe in and out, respectively?

 

I understand the difference between breathing with your chest and breathing with your abdomen. I used to move my whole chest when i breathe, but now when i breathe, my chest stays still and my upper abdomen moves. i'm not sure if I do it entirely correctly, though. I heard that the body gets much more oxygen this way. however, i feel i can take much deeper breaths if i allow my chest to move as well.

 

the way it is now, if i breathe in deeply using my abdomen, i feel a hardness in my solar plexus, and if i insist on breathing more deepy my chest starts to hurt too. this is why I think i'm breathing w/ my solar plexus at the moment, as i clearly feel that part of my body. i can't clearly feel my tan t'ien when i breathe at all, though.

 

any tips/suggestions/comments? does breathing w/ the tan t'ien just mean focusing on that area mentally and then breathing normally?

 

EDIT: I can get my lower abdomen to expand on an inhalation if i really tense my abs when breathing, but this doesnt seem too natural. It also seems strange that lower abdomen would expand considering the lungs stop at your ribcage

 

Lower abdomen breathing and "tan tien" breathing are the same thing (anyone who tells you any different doesn't know what they are talking about). When you inhale and expand your belly ("Buddhist breathing") you are breathing with/into your tan tien. At first this practice may seem unnatural and require some effort on your part. Eventually you will become more proficient and it will become second nature.

 

It sounds as if you are forcing the breathing and that is what is causing the tension you are feeling. I bet my big toe you are attempting to utilize the Buddhist Breathing method while at the same time attempting to COMPLETLY fill your lungs with air AND you are also trying to keep your chest from moving while you breath. You can't do all three at once. To completely fill your lungs with air you will simply need to allow your chest to expand as well, but there is no need to do this. You do not need to take a FULL breath, only a deep one. By expanding your abdomen when you inhale you are taking a deep breath.

 

For now just focus on taking simple breaths while allowing your lower abdomen to expand - try to make this process as natural as possible and don't force it too much. RELAX and you'll get there.

 

(also don't forget to work in some reverse breathing as well)

[mYTHmAKER]

How exactly does one breath w/ the tan t'ien? Does that mean that physically, the tan t'ien area of my body should be expanding and contracting when I breathe in and out, respectively?

 

I understand the difference between breathing with your chest and breathing with your abdomen. I used to move my whole chest when i breathe, but now when i breathe, my chest stays still and my upper abdomen moves. i'm not sure if I do it entirely correctly, though. I heard that the body gets much more oxygen this way. however, i feel i can take much deeper breaths if i allow my chest to move as well.

 

the way it is now, if i breathe in deeply using my abdomen, i feel a hardness in my solar plexus, and if i insist on breathing more deepy my chest starts to hurt too. this is why I think i'm breathing w/ my solar plexus at the moment, as i clearly feel that part of my body. i can't clearly feel my tan t'ien when i breathe at all, though.

 

any tips/suggestions/comments? does breathing w/ the tan t'ien just mean focusing on that area mentally and then breathing normally?

 

EDIT: I can get my lower abdomen to expand on an inhalation if i really tense my abs when breathing, but this doesnt seem too natural. It also seems strange that lower abdomen would expand considering the lungs stop at your ribcage

 

Relax and put your mind on your tan tien. Your breath will automatically go there. after a while it will become habit. Don't try and breathe deeper than normal. One should do this walking, sitting, standing, laying down.

[electric gravity]

look man ill just tell you like this.

 

1. you do not go looking for your lower dan tian it should tell you where its at.

2. after your lower dan tian tells you where its at and it should start to spin.

 

this is what you are looking for in lower dan tian training.

 

how can you breathe into the dan tian if you dont know where it is?

 

anyone who tells you different doesnt know the full truth.

and why?.......

 

because with the right training a student's lower dan tian will start to vibrate and spin within the first hour of the first day with the right training.

when you take the right posture you will instantly feel where your lower dan tian really is.

[Mal]

[joeblast]

Breathing into the dantien does have a physical connotation to it - check this out:

 

 

Towards the inferior posterior portion of the diaphragm, it overlaps with the psoas muscle - by initiating breath there and "sinking" the diaphragm along with the psoas you can establish a forward & upward rolling motion in the diaphragm that 1) allows you to breathe very deeply because you're getting at "the very bottom" of it, 2) establish an "anchor point" for diaphragmatic motion so that as you slow and lengthen your breaths you are able to overcome more easily a couple herky jerky inconsistencies that are barriers to smooth motion to relatively arbitrarily slow breaths and 3) it enables you to roll the exhale into the inhale easier, helping to create the "One Breath" cycle which works very well for longevity breathing.

 

Additional info on Mal's comment, "false dantien" is merely qihai, cv-6, "real" being the middle of the gut, around the culmination of the small intestine.

[beoman]

Practically with abdominal breathing your back and sides will also expand / contract, not just your solar plexus (Think girdle breathing)

 

I tried it last night while sitting in (what I think is) half lots, and I noticed that my sides definitely expanded and contracted with my breath. My back also expands and contracts slightly. my upper abdomen moves a lot, and actually the sides and back around the upper abdomen are the ones that are moving. my lower abdomen also moves a good amount, but the majority of the motion is around the upper abdomen.

 

i also find this easier while lying down than while sitting, and it's very hard to do while standing. if i try it while standing i usually get short of breath quite quickly.

[beoman]

It sounds as if you are forcing the breathing and that is what is causing the tension you are feeling. I bet my big toe you are attempting to utilize the Buddhist Breathing method while at the same time attempting to COMPLETLY fill your lungs with air AND you are also trying to keep your chest from moving while you breath. You can't do all three at once. To completely fill your lungs with air you will simply need to allow your chest to expand as well, but there is no need to do this. You do not need to take a FULL breath, only a deep one. By expanding your abdomen when you inhale you are taking a deep breath.

Ahh thanks for this clarification. That makes sense, both logically and anatomically.

 

(also don't forget to work in some reverse breathing as well)

I read in this book, T'ai Chi Qi and Jin, ( http://www.ebook3000.com/T-ai-CHI-QI-and-Jin--Ultimate-Guide-for-Developing-Internal-and-Intrinsic-Energies_80004.html ) that it was only useful to try reverse breathing once you got results with natural breathing?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Ahh thanks for this clarification. That makes sense, both logically and anatomically.

 

 

I read in this book, T'ai Chi Qi and Jin, ( http://www.ebook3000.com/T-ai-CHI-QI-and-Jin--Ultimate-Guide-for-Developing-Internal-and-Intrinsic-Energies_80004.html ) that it was only useful to try reverse breathing once you got results with natural breathing?

 

In the books I've read, B.K. Frantzis doesn't advocate doing reverse breathing until you're at a good point with regular breathing. I don't know if his position has changed/developed/refined in the time since his books have come out, and I've never met him personally (Pietro just got back from a three week session with him, so you might consider asking Pietro).

 

However, I will say that in my experience reverse breathing does arise naturally from normal breathing. There are times when suddenly my body will start reverse breathing, even though my intention is to do regular belly breathing. When it happens, I just go with it, but I don't ever try to reverse breathe.