Is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

But then, where is one to go if one escapes the recycling? Is there a heaven similar to the Christian Heaven? Or do you simply no longer exist? That wouldn't be consistent with the thought that no energy of the universe is ever lost.

 

No.. a Buddha continues to exist, but for the sake of helping others, thus they have the power to take rebirth consciously in different world systems in order to preach the dharma method and philosophy. Even at the end of this universe, a Buddha will not be absorbed and will enter another universe as there really is a multiverse here, not a single universe. Physicists are even finding this out. Basically a Buddha is just conscious of the process of birth and death and sees right through it, thus is not internally effected by it and has power over it for his or herself to one degree or another.

 

Sure, going to Heaven and becoming into the form that we were at the peak of our life and haveing 47 virgins and some comely boys to play with is a lofty goal (if that is your thing, hehehe) but that just seems so vain to me.

 

Yes, that is quite vain and not the goal of Buddhism.

 

And yes, my spirituality is pretty much linked with the observable universe. But I also like to link myself with the spirituality of the North American Natives. The Cherokee have a lot of beliefs that are consistent with my beliefs. Sure, they use different words to express the concepts and sure, they do personify many of the processes of nature but it is still the closest to Taoist Philosophy that I have read about. Sad that the North American Natives never developed a written language and we must rely on the stories and teachings that were hand down generation after generation.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yes, but for me observable is not limited to the 5 senses. I also like some native American beliefs. Like the Navajo for instance.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

 

My point is,

 

 

I too enjoyed your post.

 

But I will disagree with VJ just because I can. Heehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

Wow... you are bitter.

 

Just telling the truth. That is what you continually do on this forum.

[Marblehead]

So, Tao merely as a process of all things is eternal? Ok. I can agree with that.

 

By the way, scientists have found matter left over from the previous universe.

 

Yes, we agreed on that once before.

 

I still have not found any support for your last statement though. Yes, it is true that there is evidence of objects in our solar system that were not destroyed when the other star exploded and allowed for our solar system to be created. (There actually are meteorites in our solar system that are older than our solar system.)

 

However, if I ever see any evidence of that suggestion I would probably be able to accept it as valid.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

 

 

 

By the way, scientists have found matter left over from the previous universe.

 

Please provide me a reference. This is news to me.

 

ralis

Edited July 10, 2010 by ralis

[Marblehead]

No.. a Buddha continues to exist, but for the sake of helping others, thus they have the power to take rebirth consciously in different world systems in order to preach the dharma method and philosophy. Even at the end of this universe, a Buddha will not be absorbed and will enter another universe as there really is a multiverse here, not a single universe. Physicists are even finding this out. Basically a Buddha is just conscious of the process of birth and death and sees right through it, thus is not internally effected by it and has power over it for his or herself to one degree or another.

 

We shouldn't discuss that in this thread. (But I understand what you are saying.)

 

Yes, that is quite vain and not the goal of Buddhism.

 

I just couldn't help putting that into this discussion. A comic break.

 

Yes, but for me observable is not limited to the 5 senses. I also like some native American beliefs. Like the Navajo for instance.

 

Well, I have thoughts that I do not speak about here because I have no support for my thoughts. I would love to talk about my soul or spirit being able to comprehend things that my conscious mind cannot but I wouldn't be able to support anything I said. Yes, I believe in intuition. Where does intuition come from? I am unable to make a definative statement. I believe in deja vu as well but I have no support for such a belief.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Heck, I wanted to rejoin this conversation but so many posts have flown by I don't know where to start.

 

So just a couple of quick points:

 

Marblehead : feel free to respond to anything said to me by the way. The thing about the Big Bang - and I think this is worth saying because its important about origins - people think of empty space and then a big explosion like a billion supernovas or something similar - this is completely wrong. There was no space or time before the Big Bang - both space and sequential time as we experience it came into being with the Big Bang. This is difficult to think about because it runs counter to our experience of the everyday world - but love it or hate it that is the theory (a theory I might add which is supported by all empirical observations so its not just some mad scientists dream. The consequence of this is that when you think of the origin ... then you have to think f the beginning of time itself and not just a very large number of years. The same goes with space ... space itself is expanding as a result of the Big Bang not just things expanding in space. When we talk about beginingless time then perhaps we could say all the time there ever has been since there was time at all (if you see what I mean).

 

Vaj,

 

Can I call you Vaj? or perhaps the diminutive Vajinho (but that starts to sound vaguely anatomical LOL) - I don't think I am confusing Tao with my Buddhist influenced mind (whatever that is) - I think that people write and speak about the Tao in a lot of ways because that is possible. Sometimes this may sound like some kind of irreducible underlying cause or whatever - but sometimes it doesn't. What Taoism or certainly philosophical Taoism brings (to me) is a great and profound wisdom about the world and ourselves what I might call a sagacity. This wisdom is not fooled into thinking it is something it is not. If you try to pin it down to something like an ontological essence then you will get very quickly confused. That is because while such an idea might be encompassed by the Tao it is not the Tao (or an adequate definition of it).

[Marblehead]

Marblehead ... The thing about the Big Bang ...

 

Yep. I'm with you and in agreement.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

"So, Tao merely as a process of all things is eternal? Ok. I can agree with that."

 

- I say ;-) THIS

 

'cept those damn Taoists don't know anything beyond that

[Birch]

I feel like drawing up a big calligraphied script that repeats what Vaj said and asking him to sign it in blood - oh wait, I'm not the Spanish Inquisition...

[Marblehead]

"So, Tao merely as a process of all things is eternal? Ok. I can agree with that."

 

- I say ;-) THIS

 

'cept those damn Taoists don't know anything beyond that

 

You funny!!! Hehehe. Thanks for the laughs.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Wow! There you go again trying to personify (reify) Tao.

 

Not a personified cosmic self, but rather an impersonal Self of all, beyond personification. But, in your view you would think of all us as the personification or actualization of the Tao. As in, it goes through the process of transformation to become the 10,000 things while all being Tao at the same time?

[Stigweard]

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Vaj,

 

Can I call you Vaj? or perhaps the diminutive Vajinho (but that starts to sound vaguely anatomical LOL) - I don't think I am confusing Tao with my Buddhist influenced mind (whatever that is) - I think that people write and speak about the Tao in a lot of ways because that is possible. Sometimes this may sound like some kind of irreducible underlying cause or whatever - but sometimes it doesn't. What Taoism or certainly philosophical Taoism brings (to me) is a great and profound wisdom about the world and ourselves what I might call a sagacity. This wisdom is not fooled into thinking it is something it is not. If you try to pin it down to something like an ontological essence then you will get very quickly confused. That is because while such an idea might be encompassed by the Tao it is not the Tao (or an adequate definition of it).

 

I am what I eat, though my wife would wish I could dine more often. Sorry if that's too crass for anyone. I couldn't resist.

 

On the other points. Ok... yes, I agree. The Tao is spoken about in so many differing ways. That's why I think sometimes it rhymes with Buddhist insight and at other times, it get's stuck in an ultimate existence.

[Vajrahridaya]

I feel like drawing up a big calligraphied script that repeats what Vaj said and asking him to sign it in blood - oh wait, I'm not the Spanish Inquisition...

 

Too funny! I could do it!

[voidisyinyang]

Thanks for the discussion

 

To summarize where this is leading my awareness, we have the emergence of Tao as a Universal principle or law, from or upon which the nature of the Universe and its changes are expressed.

 

An analogy, however insufficient, could be the way sound will make patterns in sand:

 

 

The patterning of the sand originates from the sound waves, so in this sense the sand patterns are the physical expression of the Tao of the music. But as I said this isn’t completely sufficient because the sound waves are dependent on the composer etc. etc. However it does provide insight into this mystery.

 

So let’s turn to the text again:

 

Humankind conforms to Earth.

Earth conforms to the sky.

The sky conforms to the Subtle Origin.

The Subtle Origin conforms to its own nature.

 

So the distinctions we know as Heaven, Earth, and Humanity arose because that was the natural response to the Universal harmonic principle we know as Tao. Tao must then have “preceded” Heaven and Earth for the Universe to manifest as Heaven and Earth in the way they have.

 

To link to some classic Taoist principles, this harmonic patterning of the Universe has been expressed in the Ten Celestial Stems and Twelve Terrestrial Branches:

 

 

So this is how Taoists of old observed the “sand patterning” of Universal substance as it expresses the harmonic resonance of Tao.

 

The question is then: Can this principle of universal harmonic resonance fulfill these requirements as stated in the opening stanza of Ch 25?

 

• Formless
  
• Complete in itself
  
• Impalpable and everlasting
  
• Silent and undisturbed
  
• Standing alone and unchanging
  

 

 

Stig -- the image you've posted based on the 10 and 12 is ALSO the basis for the small universe 12 in the book "Taoist Yoga"

 

Now Stig you've put this into the context of sound harmonics.

 

Stig my research is focused on this great secret -- see the Hans Jenny experiment you're referring above -- if you read his book Cymatics he states at the end it's all based on the Pythagorean Tetrad.

 

My research discovered that the Pythagorean Tetrad -- which is the 10 as 1:2:3:4 of music harmonics --

 

is ALSO the Taoist yin and yang.

 

So the Tao Te Ching states that from the one came two and from two came three and from three everything is created.

 

That's the same as the Pythagorean Tetrad. I give the reference in my masters thesis.

 

2:3 is yang and 3:4 is yin.

 

So in Western logic C:G is 3:2 while G:C is 2:3.

 

But in NONWESTERN logic of music shamanism (Taoism and Pythagorean but comes from the Bushmen)....

 

C:G is 2:3 while G:C is 3:4

 

O.K. so THAT's the secret to interdependent origination.

 

The West is based on symmetric logic ("I Am that I Am" is the attempt to "contain infinity" through geometry -- with I as ONE and AM as the OHM as 2:3:4).

 

So the Western music scale is based on logarithms with 2:3 and 3:4 converted to 9:8 cubed as the square root of two and the cube root of two as 5:4, the major third, etc.

 

So my research gives all the details on this -- which can get quite technical but that's the basic concepts.

 

Oh -- also this is why the Small Universe is the SECRET foundation for the alchemical practice -- because the 12 energy nodes along the outside of the body are the

 

"infinite spiral of fifths" from the nonwestern music scale -- the 12 notes of the scale are based on the Tetrad, again, as the Tai-chi as 10 from 1:2:3:4 with the cycle of fifths creating the 12 notes.

 

This is a never ending cycle -- again because it's not symmetric -- there's no start and no ending.

 

In Western music logic that "problem" was called the "comma of Pythagoras" and so the "comma" was closed off into logarithmic averaging and therefore the energy channels were also closed off.

 

This is why Plato understood music scales to be the secret to mind control.

 

Finally Stig -- I'm sure Vaj in his eternal effort to official give his approval of Taoism while appreciate this book

 

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/The_Treasury_of_Knowledge_Book_8_Esoteric_Instructions.html

 

which is very much the same as the "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" book -- albeit crouched in slightly different terms.

 

Jamgon Kongtrul's Treasury of Knowledge in ten volumes is a unique encyclopedic masterpiece embodying the entire range of Buddhist teachings as they were presented in Tibet. Tibetan Buddhist teachers expected their students to study Buddhist philosophical texts as well as practicing reflection and meditation; present-day students have also realized that awakening has its source in study as well as in reflection and practice. This volume, Esoteric Instructions, deals with meditation, specifically tantric meditation. Esoteric Instructions is a collection of intimate records of personal teaching by masters. They simplify tantric meditations by providing pertinent examples and very personal and helpful hints to disciples based on the masters's own experience. Although originally oral in nature, they have been codified and passed down thorough specific lineages from teacher to student.

Edited July 11, 2010 by drewhempel

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I'm sure Vaj in his eternal effort to official give his approval of Taoism

Taoists don't need my approval. I've never tried to do any such thing. We debate view and outcome of view though here on a concept board and that's about it.

 

But... hey... whatever makes you evolve. There's my approval.

[Marblehead]

Not a personified cosmic self, but rather an impersonal Self of all, beyond personification. But, in your view you would think of all us as the personification or actualization of the Tao. As in, it goes through the process of transformation to become the 10,000 things while all being Tao at the same time?

 

Hehehe. I just need to keep you properly oriented here.

 

I really don't like to use the words 'personification' or 'actualization' when I speak to this subject. The words contain misleading connotations. Manifestation is the word I use for the physical universe. Yes, all manifest things were at one point in time non-things. So yes, there was a transformation (I like the word 'transmutation') from no-thing to thing and there will be another transformation from thing to no-thing.

 

And again I will stress that Tao is not a thing in and of itself so we didn't transform 'out of Tao', we transformed within Tao (Tao in this case being only a word to define everything of the universe).

 

So in answer to your question: Yes.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Hehehe. I just need to keep you properly oriented here.

 

I really don't like to use the words 'personification' or 'actualization' when I speak to this subject. The words contain misleading connotations. Manifestation is the word I use for the physical universe. Yes, all manifest things were at one point in time non-things. So yes, there was a transformation (I like the word 'transmutation') from no-thing to thing and there will be another transformation from thing to no-thing.

 

And again I will stress that Tao is not a thing in and of itself so we didn't transform 'out of Tao', we transformed within Tao (Tao in this case being only a word to define everything of the universe).

 

So in answer to your question: Yes.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Hmn... sounds like the Buddhist concept of Alaya Vijnana, or storehouse consciousness. The I maker arising from the craving for existence from formless to form left over from the residue of the previous moment, so on and so forth. So, the potential for re-birth of a universe due to consideration of an ultimate existent. Each moment is a new universe on a micro-cosmic scale as you.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

[Marblehead]

Hmn... sounds like the Buddhist concept of Alaya Vijnana, or storehouse consciousness. The I maker arising from the craving for existence from formless to form left over from the residue of the previous moment, so on and so forth. So, the potential for re-birth of a universe due to consideration of an ultimate existent. Each moment is a new universe on a micro-cosmic scale as you.

 

Oh!, I so much don't like that. Hehehe. Especially the "storehouse consciousness". That is too much "god-like".

 

The other ideas in that are almost acceptable. Basically it is speaking to 'cause and effect' (or, to tickle your consciousness, dependant-origination).

 

Yes, each moment of time is like a snowflake, never two alike.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh!, I so much don't like that. Hehehe. Especially the "storehouse consciousness". That is too much "god-like".

 

It's merely referencing the individual ability to experience beyond personal consciousness through meditation and realize formless potential for form directly by diving deep into the unconscious.

 

This is exactly what we cut through though. So, as far as both you and Stig have explained the Tao... it is basically the trap that the Buddhas insight cuts through to liberate from. Basically... this is the seed of Samsaric (cycle of becoming) experience.

 

Edit: Basically, an all absorbing and all expressing essence that is a mystery to the vast majority of conscious minds is what we try to illuminate and completely dismantle from within. Basically, this is another phenomena to completely empty of inherent existence through contemplation and meditation.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

This is exactly what we cut through though. So, as far as both you and Stig have explained the Tao... it is basically the trap that the Buddhas insight cuts through to liberate from. Basically... this is the seed of Samsaric (cycle of becoming) experience.

 

And that is exactly the point at which the two philosophies take different paths.

 

For we Taoists the way the universe actually works is good enough for us. We don't need to be liberated because there is nothing to be liberated from. We are totally accepting of the fact that we are going to die and all of what was at one point in time 'us' will be recycled to be used to form other 'things', or not.

 

(Hehehe. I better point out that my usage of the words 'we' and 'us' refers to 'me' because I don't want anyone to think that all Taoists believe exactly as I do. Afterall, most religious Taoists long for the same immortality the the Buddhists long for - just using different words.)

 

No, there is no trap according to Taoism. We too continue on just as a Buddhist does, we just take different paths (and form). (But then, if we consider the concept of tzujan, there is a natural process involved here. Who has the better understanding of the process is what is being questioned.)

 

But then, since we are talking about "is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?" your sweet Buddhist understandings don't apply here. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

It's merely referencing the individual ability to experience beyond personal consciousness through meditation and realize formless potential for form directly by diving deep into the unconscious.

 

 

I just wanted to point out that this applies to Taoism as well. In my opinion, the most important aspect of meditation is to realize the state of 'wu'. Most of us spend far too much time in the state of 'yo'.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

I just wanted to point out that this applies to Taoism as well. In my opinion, the most important aspect of meditation is to realize the state of 'wu'. Most of us spend far too much time in the state of 'yo'.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Uh hu... I do agree.

 

What I'm saying is that to merely realize oneness beyond concept is what most paths seem to do.