Kill The Buddha: Sam Harris On Buddhism

[nac]

^Since you asked, by rejecting what your senses tell you on face value. Eg. If you were to tell me that this is so and so, I may not believe you because you could be delusional on the subject. On the other hand, if I can discover precisely where your actions fit within the interdependent web of causality, then I can fish a gem of true wisdom from the ocean of phenomena. We can't be certain that our hypotheses will never be subject to revision, but learning the right lesson each phenomenon has to teach is one way of overcoming delusion one small step at a time; provided that we wanted to, of course.

 

Is that televangelistic enough for you? I tried not to make it sound blatantly obvious.

In short, don't trust immediate sense, but maintain a deep awareness of emergent phenomena and find the overarching patterns which give rise to the senses. Then all phenomena become our teachers. I think this teaching has many things in common with other traditions including Taoism. Nothing "religious" about it in the sense TzuJanLi is using the word. He seems to have loosely reinterpreted the word to mean something like "rigid orthodoxy", then mixed up the two definitions.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

In short, don't trust immediate sense, but maintain a deep awareness of emergent phenomena and find the overarching patterns which give rise to the senses. Then all phenomena become our teachers.

SEE, see.. i warned you..... try something very unique, suspend your beliefs and your thoughts.. what you experience during this still state is direct and Clear.. not filtered through Buddhist or Taoist beliefs.. then, contemplate the intimate relationships and interactions that unfolded in this Clarity, contemplate the consequences that echo through reality as experienced in Clarity, Presence, and Stillness.. you will notice that NO stories come remotely close to this reality..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited May 20, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

Well this stillness was self-manifesting..

 

 

No it arose due to causes and conditions relating to practice.

 

i kept reading all of this Buddhist propaganda, spewing from the inflated self-images of those too timid to Live in Reality, then.. after a few posts of meaningless parroting of Buddhist self-righteousness, i found myself in a trance-like state.. each Buddhist precept ripping away at fringes of sanity, self-awareness, and the fundamental duality of existence.. yes, the stillness self-manifested as an instinctive survival response.. it's like 'playing dead' to keep the incessant Buddhist droning from ripping away your very existence..

 

Be well..

 

It seems your stillness harbors animosity as well. Also, your attachment to existence is going to make it hard to go through the stages of death and after death.

[Vajrahridaya]

just 'still the mind', and let your 'stories' go, they deceive you..

 

 

 

Actually, when you understand how concepts and stories arise dependently, and how the stories manifest reality over eons of attachments to these stories, and how so called reality has no basis except for mental motion manifesting itself, then one can see right through the motion and not take preference in either stillness or motion as they are both without basis and thus have no power of bondage over one's inner state of peace.

 

So, I can be still or in motion and it doesn't effect the inner state of realization.

 

If you take preference with a false sense of stillness, suppressing the motion of the mind, your peace will not be nearly as deep as compared to one who's peace results from cutting through both experiences with deeply experienced understanding of how things work, as in, both stillness and motion.

 

It seems you prefer yin over yang.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

So, I can be still or in motion and it doesn't effect the inner state of realization.

 

If you take preference with a false sense of stillness, suppressing the motion of the mind, your peace will not be nearly as deep as compared to one who's peace results from cutting through both experiences with deeply experienced understanding of how things work, as in, both stillness and motion.

 

It seems you prefer yin over yang.

Don't wake-up, brother.. the truth will certainly underwhelm you.. enjoy your pre-fabricated fantasy..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

Don't wake-up, brother.. the truth will certainly underwhelm you.. enjoy your pre-fabricated fantasy..

 

Be well..

Just keep going deeper TzuJanLi.

[C T]

Greetings..

 

 

Well this stillness was self-manifesting.. i kept reading all of this Buddhist propaganda, spewing from the inflated self-images of those too timid to Live in Reality, then.. after a few posts of meaningless parroting of Buddhist self-righteousness, i found myself in a trance-like state.. each Buddhist precept ripping away at fringes of sanity, self-awareness, and the fundamental duality of existence.. yes, the stillness self-manifested as an instinctive survival response.. it's like 'playing dead' to keep the incessant Buddhist droning from ripping away your very existence..

 

Be well..

 

Self-manifesting stillness... yeah right.

 

Like a zombie you mean?

 

Murky, like always.

[Apech]

The original subject of this thread was quite interesting especially as the 'End of Faith' man still had time for genuine inquiry into the nature of our selves or perhaps the nature of being. But the last few pages seem to have reduced this debate to some kind of squabble.

 

Give me spiritual maturity over point scoring any day - the point of Buddhism is to be a better person, more compassionate, more generous and so on and Taoism takes us (hopefully) beyond relative dualism. IMO being smarter than everyone else is not the point.

 

And before anyone says it - I am not anti-intellectual I think it is important to formulate the path for ourselves but we shouldn't be fooled into thinking that this formulation is the path.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

And before anyone says it - I am not anti-intellectual I think it is important to formulate the path for ourselves but we shouldn't be fooled into thinking that this formulation is the path.

 

This is good. It is so that everyones path is unique, but may it be formulated from the guidance of truly liberated beings and not just powerful other worldly beings. Clarity in understanding, both conceptually and experientially is the key to the heart of Buddhahood.

[Apech]

This is good. It is so that everyones path is unique, but may it be formulated from the guidance of truly liberated beings and not just powerful other worldly beings. Clarity in understanding, both conceptually and experientially is the key to the heart of Buddhahood.

 

Guidance yes, but you have to do it for yourself otherwise its not really worth much and certainly not liberating (IMO).

 

What I like about Sam Harris is his hard headed challenge of the monoliths of organized religion but not all his conclusions.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Self-manifesting stillness... yeah right.

 

Like a zombie you mean?

 

Murky, like always.

WOW!! Is it necessary to explain sarcasm applied as humor?.. The simple statement is that Buddhists are more evangelical than evangelists, more critical of others than others are of them, and Buddhist criticsm is masked as 'loving;kindness'.. ALL of this based on some guy's need to escape reality through years of continual meditation, only to reveal an imaginative 'non-existence'? Now, still too 'murky'?

 

Be well..

[C T]

Greetings..

 

 

WOW!! Is it necessary to explain sarcasm applied as humor?.. The simple statement is that Buddhists are more evangelical than evangelists, more critical of others than others are of them, and Buddhist criticsm is masked as 'loving;kindness'.. ALL of this based on some guy's need to escape reality through years of continual meditation, only to reveal an imaginative 'non-existence'? Now, still too 'murky'?

 

Be well..

Sarcasm is your domain TJL. I am only dishing whats been handed over. If these kindly remarks of yours were not strewn all over the shop, there would have been nothing there to dish with. Right from the word 'go', there were vibrant signs of discontent gleaned from all your posts directed at Buddhist posters, most of which hid behind the veil of 'clarity'. Just because no 'religious' labels are attached to your brand of 'clarity' does not make it any more 'clear'. In addition, the afore-mentioned posts are all, whats the word - peppered, perhaps - with stark displays of intolerance. When challenged, more than once proclaimed you have much respect for your buddhist brothers and sisters! Boy, you sure have a 'clear' way of demonstrating this.

 

Your statement above about some guy's need to escape reality fundamentally shows a total lack of understanding of that which you hope to refute, and, to put it crassly, displays ignorance and disrespect. You might want to consider taking some lessons from Apepch7 as regards to decorum and diplomacy to polish up that mucky 'mirror of clarity' that you are so proud of. To conclude, yes, i would say its still quite murky.

 

Be well..

Edited May 20, 2010 by CowTao

[-O-]

Probably a mute point, and I may need to be corrected on this. When I lived in Asia there wasn't really any delineation between Buddhist and Taoist. On the same note when I lived in Nepal there was no delineation between Buddhism and Hinduism, each prayed at the others temples etc- Buddha was considered the 5th Vajrasatva.... interestingly so was Jesus and again they didn't make the delineation between Hinduism or Christianity (as Jesus was considered one of the Vajrasatvas)... anyway at least that is what I found "on the streets" there.... so perhaps the strong delineations between Buddhism - Toaism are....well, made up in your heads.

Edited May 20, 2010 by -O-

[nac]

Greetings..

 

 

SEE, see.. i warned you..... try something very unique, suspend your beliefs and your thoughts.. what you experience during this still state is direct and Clear.. not filtered through Buddhist or Taoist beliefs.. then, contemplate the intimate relationships and interactions that unfolded in this Clarity, contemplate the consequences that echo through reality as experienced in Clarity, Presence, and Stillness.. you will notice that NO stories come remotely close to this reality..

 

Be well..

Um... Isn't that what I'm doing? Except suspending all thought, that is?

 

PS. I can't remember saying anything different either. Could you please jog my memory?

Edited May 20, 2010 by nac

[nac]

I'm really curious. Those of you who followed our exchange last night, what do you think of dragonfire45?

 

Frankly, I've no idea why he'd think I'm out to convert everyone to Buddhism. (You have no idea what a hard time I gave my Buddhist teachers. As for E-Sangha, even I have lost count how many times I've been banned from that place.) Skillful means are employed to ensure the mutual co-arising of wisdom, not BuddhistTM wisdom. I may have failed to help him in any way, but he has certainly illuminated my mind on one or two points, and I thank him for it.

 

It's possible that he was just trolling for fun and profit. However, if he meant every word he wrote last night, shouldn't he be informed that he sounds like a deluded racist? Consciously or subconsciously, he seems to think that Muslims, particularly Indian Muslims, are to be despised for whatever reason, and justifies this hatred by thinking "Oh, it's the Muslims who hate us Hindus, so it's okay to hate others in the extent to which they identify with that tradition."

[-O-]

I'm really curious. Those of you who followed our exchange last night, what do you think of dragonfire45?

 

 

We'll not that I would up a conversation like that - however I thought he had you mixed up with Vajrahridaya

[forestofemptiness]

Shhh! If this gets out, what will people do? Practice?

 

so perhaps the strong delineations between Buddhism - Taoism are....well, made up in your heads.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

If possible, i will try to make my understandings very clear.. i understand the the 'stilled-mind' suspends judgment, belief, and distracting chatter.. that experiences unfolding while the mind is still are themselves Clear, and their interconnectedness with ALL of Life is self-evident, i understand these to be 'Pure Experiences'.. it is my understanding, that 'the stilled mind' is balanced by the active mind, the source of great misunderstanding and conflict.. the active mind makes judgments, holds beliefs, is subject to pregramming by mentors and socio-religious 'authorities'.. i understand that one's local environment, cultural history, and lineage of belief systems can and frequently does disguise the authenticity and Clarity of Pure Experiences by influencing the active mind's contemplation and interpretation of the Pure Experiences it has engaged..

 

I have spent more than three decades exploring the mind's relationship with the processes of Life and with existence itself.. i have explored most of the major belief systems and the precepts they claim as validity for their 'beliefs'.. i have come to some conclusions that are consistent with quantifiable physical relationships and withstand scrutiny.. these same conclusions are revealed in the major belief systems as the thread of 'commonallity' evident in each.. what was first evident early in my exploration, is that ritual and tradition interfere with Pure Experience and Clarity of Understanding.. i am an eaqual opportunity offender when it comes to religions and belief systems, they ALL separate the seeker from the sought.. some more or less than others, but ALL do it.. as i have stated previously, my inclination toward Taoist Philosophy is its minimal influence on the seeker and its clear and pragmatic Understanding of Life and Living in relationship with Existence.. to be fair, i lump 'religious Taoism' in with most other religions..

 

I have issues with religions and belief systems, Buddhism included, that rely on 'Faith', which is conceptual imaginings consistent with someone else's conceptual imaginings without verifiable evidence of the implied results or implied results that cannot be verified beyond subjective claims.. when someone asks you/me to accept that you 'don't really exist', that 'Life is an illusion', that Life is Suffering, and that 'nothing is really something', what is it in your own Understanding that concludes those to be accurate statements?? Next, as predictable as the seasons, i will be informed as to my misunderstanding of Buddhism (already happened, actually), cool.. help me understand, from a pragmatic perspective, the benefits of pretending unsupportable concepts are so true as to model my physical existence after them.. and, i have no interest in believing anything except that which is 'true', or that which withstands intelligent scrutiny.. show me the error of my understandings and will revise my understandings to be consistent with the more consistent and supportable perspectives.. i very much enjoy authentic discussions that sincerely seek functional conclusions, but find that most religions and belief systems, including Buddhism, are 'exclusive' and view other beliefs as inferior and incorrect.. this may be agrued due to clever word-play, but it is an easily observable actuallity..

 

I find that Eastern Philosophies, including Hindu variants, and Native American beliefs have certain consistent perspectives and understandings, a 'Thread of Truth', that links each with a set of Fundamental Principles that are practical wisdoms for Living well in the Physical Manifestation, and.. based on recent trends in scientific research, these Fundamental Principles are revealing the 'Middle Way' between Science and Spirituality to enhance the Human Experience, both physically and Spiritually.. the failure of most belief systems is rooted in their certainty that their's is the 'only true way'.. it is this 'exclusivity' that breeds conflict between otherwise peaceful peoples, the attachment with 'blind faith' to the dogma of Right/Wrong.. and the belief that 'wrong' cannot co-exist with 'right', leading to the doctrine of 'convert or eliminate'.. so, when faced with Doctrine of any faith, and Buddhism IS a doctrine of faith, i am compelled to inquire as to the veracity of the Doctrine and the dedication of the believer..

 

Be well..

[dwai]

Shhh! If this gets out, what will people do? Practice?

 

 

 

What indeed? They will fight it tooth and nail...I guess some Buddhists like to feel exclusive and well..."Special"

[Birch]

And we're not going to mention yellow hats and black hats either ?

 

I came back to this thread to see what more people might have said about Mr Hotness Sam Harris.

 

Oh, and to read a bit of banter, but the Buddhist stuff is bugging me.

 

I guess what I want to see more of on this thread is the discussion of how people are going to go about setting up research methodologies to examine some of the claims made by various religions.

 

Also speculation welcome on Mr Cutey-pie Harris' motivations. Because if I asked him, he apparently wouldn't respond.

[-O-]

Shhh! If this gets out, what will people do? Practice?

 

 

 

 

LOL

[C T]

Greetings..

 

If possible, i will try to make my understandings very clear.. i understand the the 'stilled-mind' suspends judgment, belief, and distracting chatter.. that experiences unfolding while the mind is still are themselves Clear, and their interconnectedness with ALL of Life is self-evident, i understand these to be 'Pure Experiences'.. it is my understanding, that 'the stilled mind' is balanced by the active mind, the source of great misunderstanding and conflict.. the active mind makes judgments, holds beliefs, is subject to pregramming by mentors and socio-religious 'authorities'.. i understand that one's local environment, cultural history, and lineage of belief systems can and frequently does disguise the authenticity and Clarity of Pure Experiences by influencing the active mind's contemplation and interpretation of the Pure Experiences it has engaged..

 

I have spent more than three decades exploring the mind's relationship with the processes of Life and with existence itself.. i have explored most of the major belief systems and the precepts they claim as validity for their 'beliefs'.. i have come to some conclusions that are consistent with quantifiable physical relationships and withstand scrutiny.. these same conclusions are revealed in the major belief systems as the thread of 'commonallity' evident in each.. what was first evident early in my exploration, is that ritual and tradition interfere with Pure Experience and Clarity of Understanding.. i am an eaqual opportunity offender when it comes to religions and belief systems, they ALL separate the seeker from the sought.. some more or less than others, but ALL do it.. as i have stated previously, my inclination toward Taoist Philosophy is its minimal influence on the seeker and its clear and pragmatic Understanding of Life and Living in relationship with Existence.. to be fair, i lump 'religious Taoism' in with most other religions..

 

I have issues with religions and belief systems, Buddhism included, that rely on 'Faith', which is conceptual imaginings consistent with someone else's conceptual imaginings without verifiable evidence of the implied results or implied results that cannot be verified beyond subjective claims.. when someone asks you/me to accept that you 'don't really exist', that 'Life is an illusion', that Life is Suffering, and that 'nothing is really something', what is it in your own Understanding that concludes those to be accurate statements?? Next, as predictable as the seasons, i will be informed as to my misunderstanding of Buddhism (already happened, actually), cool.. help me understand, from a pragmatic perspective, the benefits of pretending unsupportable concepts are so true as to model my physical existence after them.. and, i have no interest in believing anything except that which is 'true', or that which withstands intelligent scrutiny.. show me the error of my understandings and will revise my understandings to be consistent with the more consistent and supportable perspectives.. i very much enjoy authentic discussions that sincerely seek functional conclusions, but find that most religions and belief systems, including Buddhism, are 'exclusive' and view other beliefs as inferior and incorrect.. this may be agrued due to clever word-play, but it is an easily observable actuallity..

 

I find that Eastern Philosophies, including Hindu variants, and Native American beliefs have certain consistent perspectives and understandings, a 'Thread of Truth', that links each with a set of Fundamental Principles that are practical wisdoms for Living well in the Physical Manifestation, and.. based on recent trends in scientific research, these Fundamental Principles are revealing the 'Middle Way' between Science and Spirituality to enhance the Human Experience, both physically and Spiritually.. the failure of most belief systems is rooted in their certainty that their's is the 'only true way'.. it is this 'exclusivity' that breeds conflict between otherwise peaceful peoples, the attachment with 'blind faith' to the dogma of Right/Wrong.. and the belief that 'wrong' cannot co-exist with 'right', leading to the doctrine of 'convert or eliminate'.. so, when faced with Doctrine of any faith, and Buddhism IS a doctrine of faith, i am compelled to inquire as to the veracity of the Doctrine and the dedication of the believer..

 

Be well..

Pray tell, TJL... these conclusions of yours, based on 3 decades of intelligent study, are they or are they not your beliefs? Have they not weaved their way into your present consciousness, influencing and hardening your views and your present disposition? The fact that you cannot suspend this hardline view and be more accommodating of others who happen to approach spiritual discoveries in ways different to yours, does that not make you somewhat of an extremist, which is actually more severe than being simply a dogmatic believer, the kind that you so abhor? Just cos you label your work as intelligent 'explorations that withstand scrutiny' does not in any way mean that others do not have their own unique practices which could be labelled similarly - so what makes your explorations more profoundly effective, i wonder?

 

Just as you have a mental check-list/guidelines that determine what is right to adopt as a philosophy or way of life for your own path, others too have their own system of investigation to perhaps derive similar conclusions as yourself. The fact that certain paths and practitioners prefer a more structured approach does not nullify the validity of the end-result. As a matter of course, i am certain that your 3 decades of research was intelligently performed, and your inquiries was definitely not done haphazardly - again i wonder, what makes you think your conclusions are somehow more valid than those you often lock horns with here, and may i remind again, that often it is you who initiate the first move in this 'game', which makes you quite a hypocrite really, seeing how you often put others down for engaging in mental word-play.

 

Next time before you pass judgement on others and belittle their position and integrity, please use the energy to reflect on your own hard-line, stubborn beliefs first - cos whatever you throw at others (as though they are stupid or something), springs from these very same beliefs of yours, so please spare us all the talk about how shallow and ineffective Buddhism and other -isms are, just because the approaches are not aligned with the beliefs (yes, Beliefs) in your own so-called dogma-free Clarity.

Edited May 21, 2010 by CowTao

[-O-]

I find it interesting how a non-judgemental view transmutes into a judgement.

[Vajrahridaya]

Probably a mute point, and I may need to be corrected on this. When I lived in Asia there wasn't really any delineation between Buddhist and Taoist. On the same note when I lived in Nepal there was no delineation between Buddhism and Hinduism, each prayed at the others temples etc- Buddha was considered the 5th Vajrasatva.... interestingly so was Jesus and again they didn't make the delineation between Hinduism or Christianity (as Jesus was considered one of the Vajrasatvas)... anyway at least that is what I found "on the streets" there.... so perhaps the strong delineations between Buddhism - Toaism are....well, made up in your heads.

 

Most Hindus, Buddhists, and Christians haven't studied much if at all their religions and texts and merely do deity worship out of family habit. Very few go deeper into the profound truths revealed by their own spiritual traditions.

 

Buddha did debate various Hindu conclusions and these debates are recorded.