Taoist views on Buddhist way

[Vajrahridaya]

What you were shown was Generation stage, and there is still Completion stage, then there is more... it's a process.

 

I'm down with processes.

 

Kindly explain "Completion stage"?

 

As I've not done it in this lifetime, only last lifetime, so I can't really make a clear comment on it, only from the point of view of the experiential gist of it as I started doing it automatically during my sadhana before I even read about it and I have memories of learning about it in a previous lifetime. It has to do with yoking the quality of Buddhahood projected in front of you during "generation stage" into you, as your manifestation, during "completion stage." It has to do with integrating the intention of yoking form and emptiness with the experience of yoking form and emptiness on physical, and energetic levels of one's personal being.

 

From Wiki:

 

The completion stage engages creative imagination or visualization and emphasizes the voidness aspect of reality as a skillful means of personal transformation. The completion stage employs the "mystic vortices" of the body, the cakra, the subtle energy of the subtle body, the five pranas or vāyu, together with the channels, the nadi through which the energy flows in order to generate the 'great bliss' (Tibetan: Dem Chog or bde-mchog; Sanskrit: Maha-sukha) associated with bodhi or enlightenment.[2]

 

Keith Dowman, in elucidating the spiritual disciplines of the Mahasiddhas, links the completion stage with the Two Truths, voidness, along with a suite of advanced Mahamudra sadhana and other practices that are related to the Six Yogas of Naropa such as tummo:

 

Fulfillment meditation includes "higher" techniques of meditation, which result in understanding of ultimate truth. But since relative and ultimate truth are two sides of the same coin, creative and fulfillment stages both lead to the same goal. Fundamentally, fulfillment meditation techniques entail the perception of emptiness in form, or the dissolution of form into emptiness: the dissolution of the creative stage vision into emptiness is technically a fulfillment stage practice. Examples of fulfillment mode yogas are dream yoga, the yoga of the mystic heat, Mahamudra meditation, the yoga of the apparitional body, the yoga of resurrection, clear light meditation, and the yoga of uniting skillful means [upaya] and perfect insight [prajna] to create the seed-essence of pure pleasure.[3]

 

"Seed-essence" is a rendering of tigle and changchubsem = 'seed-essence' = yang life-force = white bodhicitta. Seed-essence (Sanskrit: bija-tattva) is cognate with bindu (Sanskrit) and gankyil (Tibetan).

 

Dowman further maps the instrumentation[4] of "fulfillment meditation" in relation to the Mahamudra kundalini raising of the 'phowa of Great Transference' ("ultimate liberation") through the cranial fontanelle at the 'Bardo of Death' and a subsidiary preparatory sexual yoga:

 

The system of visualization vital in fulfillment meditation is that of the subtle body. This imaginary subtle body consists of psychic nerves - nadi, their focal points or energy centers - cakras; the energy that runs in the nerves - prana; and the essence of prana, known as "seed-essence" or bindu. A central channel, or nerve, runs from the sexual center to the fontanelle, and the left, rasana, and right, lalana, channels run parallel joining the central channel, the avadhuti, at the gut center. Converging from all parts of the body like physical veins, subsidiary nerves enter the central channel at the five focal points of psychic energy - the sexual, gut, heart, throat and head centers. Visualization of this system allows the yogin to manipulate the energies relating to the various centers for different mundane purposes, but the highest aim is to inject all energy into the central channel and up to the head center where ultimate liberation is achieved. The key to this system relates right and left channels to skillful means (male) and perfect insight (female) respectively, and the central channel to their union - Mahamudra. In an important sexual yoga, with or without a sexual partner, red and white seed-essence, bodhicittas, are mixed in the sexual center to rise up the central channel as kundalini. This is the yoga of uniting pure pleasure and emptiness.[3]

 

Jake Dalton states that:

 

The perfection stage practices are often divided into those without signs (mtshan med) and those with signs (mtshan bcas). The former refer to practices in which the enlightened view is accomplished instantaneously, without any effort, “like a fish leaping out of the water.” The latter – the practices with signs – are generally the perfection stage practices known collectively as “channels and winds” (rtsa lung). Here, the practitioner works with a system of channels within one’s body, through which are moving the “winds” – subtle energies closely related to one’s mind. [5]

 

Berzin frames the energetic process of the completion stage and in so doing, mentions the Clear Light, the Illusory Body, and the Rupakaya:

 

On the complete stage, we cause the energy-winds (rlung, Skt. prana) to enter, abide, and dissolve in the central channel. This enables us to access the subtlest level of mental activity (clear light, ‘ od-gsal) and use it for the nonconceptual cognition of voidness – the immediate cause for the omniscient mind of a Buddha. We use the subtlest level of energy-wind, which supports clear light mental activity, to arise in the form of an illusory body (sgyu-lus) as the immediate cause for the network of form bodies (Skt. rupakaya) of a Buddha.[6]

 

My dumb question of the day is why should (is?) the use of "spiritual" tools be restricted to specific religions? Is it historical? A kind of "it's always been like that since we can remember?" Is it linked to past migrations and cultural influence? Is it linked to present and future desires for such (migrations and cultural influence?)?

 

Something else? (Given I may be reproached for remaining within too strict conceptual boundaries...I'll leave it open.)

 

Buddhist practices all have to be predicated upon the "right view" which is the view-less view of dependent origination/emptiness. You have to have an intellectual understanding at least, first and foremost, then of course into an experiential taste of it's insight. Otherwise it won't bring about the same result as lets say a monotheistic view would towards the practice.

 

This is why lineage and tradition is very important, in any sense, though there can be some mixing and matching, it has to be done seemlessly so that the core teaching is not adulterated. As Buddhism is not based upon belief in a single "one" that all things are, or a single "source" behind all manifestation, other than infinite minds co-creating. The view as expounded by the Buddhas has to be understood for the practices to work as Buddhahood doesn't come about by just sitting around and emptying the mind of concepts, only formless bliss realms come about through this practice, which is high in Samsara, but it's still not Nirvana.

[KoolAid900]

"What you were shown was Generation stage, and there is still Completion stage, then there is more... it's a process."

 

I'm down with processes.

 

Kindly explain "Completion stage"?

 

My dumb question of the day is why should (is?) the use of "spiritual" tools be restricted to specific religions? Is it historical? A kind of "it's always been like that since we can remember?" Is it linked to past migrations and cultural influence? Is it linked to present and future desires for such (migrations and cultural influence?)?

 

Something else? (Given I may be reproached for remaining within too strict conceptual boundaries...I'll leave it open.)

 

I can think of a couple of good reasons why access to tools have been restricted. One is because the harder one has to work for something the more it is appreciated. It is like spending thousands of dollars for something, you are really going to think about before you do it, make sure you want it, and them probably take very good care of it after buying. If one values spiritual tools in this way then the persons that made you work hard or whatever to get access to them is doing you a kindness because when you actually have them they will be valued enough to receive their real benefit.

 

Also, one hopefully develops certain qualities while working to attain access to the secrets that are necessary prerequisites to successful application of the secrets. Another good reason is that if one does not have the proper discipline/respect/orientation then one could use the secrets to a negative end, like black magic. Lastly, secrets widely know lose their power. If everybody was walking around doing the Microcosmic orbit in a genuine way it would be great, but most likely if it was very popular it would also become watered down.

 

There are sometimes when access is restricted for bad reasons, probably mostly to retain some sort of power or wealth I guess.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The Bon you are talking about sounds a lot like Vajrayana, as most of it seems to be. Vajrayana does use a lot of "visualization," but maybe a better word would be imagination. Either way, these Vajrayana techniques are not of ordinary conceptualization. They are used to transform ordinary conceptual thoughts to their basic luminosity. The visualizations of light can be seen as very close to Chi energy. The only difference as I can see it are that Chi meditations I worked with had the advantage of being a little more tangible and grounded. Whereas, the imagination process has the ability to effect transformation immediately, in the right circumstances, since the imaginations involve powerful symbols of multifaceted aspects of awareness, free of duality. The imagination is Yang, the complement to this practice in Vajrayana is completion stage, mentioned above, which is Yin. So the master Vajrayana practitioner of this type of meditation is performing the alchemical wedding of Yin & Yang described as the nature of reality (Yin) and its manifest appearance (Yang)... or the basis/capacity of awareness (Yin) and the manifestation of awareness (Yang). This is just in relation to the type of visualization process I think you were talking about. The secret yogas in Vajrayana I think more closely resemble Taoist alchemy, but I don't know yet!

 

Hmmm, that's very interesting... I've had intuitions along these same lines myself. I'd might like to do a doctorate on this myself if I ever get my ass to school! In some lineages of Taoism it seems that the Tao is more likened to a process rather than an ultimate ground of being. Unless one would think of process as ground of being, but then one would have to recognize it's ultimate emptiness of self nature in a non-conceptual/conceptual state of recognition, therefore the Tao does not ultimately exist, only relatively so.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

Also, one hopefully develops certain qualities while working to attain access to the secrets that are necessary prerequisites to successful application of the secrets. Another good reason is that if one does not have the proper discipline/respect/orientation then one could use the secrets to a negative end, like black magic. Lastly, secrets widely know lose their power. If everybody was walking around doing the Microcosmic orbit in a genuine way it would be great, but most likely if it was very popular it would also become watered down.

 

Yes, like Hatha Yoga in the West.

[rene]

Hmmm, that's very interesting... I've had intuitions along these same lines myself. I'd might like to do a doctorate on this myself if I ever get my ass to school! In some lineages of Taoism it seems that the Tao is more likened to a process rather than an ultimate ground of being. Unless one would think of process as ground of being, but then one would have to recognize it's ultimate emptiness of self nature in a non-conceptual/conceptual state of recognition, therefore the Tao does not ultimately exist, only relatively so.

Yep. Tao the verb and Tao the noun. Both; same time. (-:

But that's my view; I dont know what "taoist" view is.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

Yep. Tao the verb and Tao the noun. Both; same time. (-:

But that's my view; I dont know what "taoist" view is.

 

warm regards

 

You and I have the same view of this concept and I beat Vaj with it every time I get the chance.

[Vajrahridaya]

You and I have the same view of this concept and I beat Vaj with it every time I get the chance.

 

Ohhhh, so many lumps on my head... oooooooohhhhhh!

 

[Marblehead]

Ohhhh, so many lumps on my head... oooooooohhhhhh!

 

 

Hehehe. I've done a good job with that so far?

[rene]

Unless one would think of process as ground of being, but then one would have to recognize it's ultimate emptiness of self nature in a non-conceptual/conceptual state of recognition, therefore the Tao does not ultimately exist, only relatively so.

Vajrahridaya, hi (-:

 

Would that be one manner of 'dependant origination' ?

 

Thanks!

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrahridaya, hi (-:

 

Would that be one manner of 'dependant origination' ?

 

Thanks!

 

Dependent origination means things arise relatively, without an ultimate source of all existence, as in, without a primal cause, neither transcendent, nor eminent.

 

So, the "Tao" (way) of things is that they don't ultimately exist, and that the cosmos is just a process of infinite potential without origin and without ending, cycling over and over again, in endless ways.

 

If that's what you got from my sentence that you quoted, then yes.

 

Is that what you got?

 

p.s. By the way.. love the Bear rene... it's cute.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[rene]

Dependent origination means things arise relatively, without an ultimate source of all existence, as in, without a primal cause, neither transcendent, nor eminent.

 

So, the "Tao" (way) of things is that they don't ultimately exist, and that the cosmos is just a process of infinite potential without origin and without ending, cycling over and over again, in endless ways.

 

If that's what you got from my sentence that you quoted, then yes.

 

Is that what you got?

 

 

Pretty close, yes.

 

See, to me this is like we all have our hand in the same bag feeling the same thing and then trying to describe or make sense of what we discover, without the benefit of seeing in the bag. As I read the posts and how people sort all this out, sometimes their descriptions come really close to what's in my hand. That's what happened with your sentence. Actually, it pretty well nailed it, but it was the whole sentence, not just the dependent origination part.

 

In my hand is both process and origin of being.

As process, eternally in play; as origin of being, both empty and full.

 

Thanks for your reply!

 

warm regards

 

 

edit: lol tks re bear (-:

Edited November 29, 2010 by rene

[exorcist_1699]

Recently I am lazy at writing something new here, so I would like to revive some old topic which I think not thoroughly discussed.

[mrtiger]

I'm not sure how helpful looking at the differences between Taoism and Buddhism are.

 

Perhaps we should be looking at what they have in common instead.

 

Personally I take from both traditions and consider myself neither. I don't feel the need to choose.

 

Taoism and Buddhism aren't the only paths. There are many other worthy traditions. And ultimately all the are are vessels for our development.

[konchog uma]

Personally I take from both traditions and consider myself neither. I don't feel the need to choose.

 

neither do asians. Its not uncommon for a chinese to consider themselves daoist and buddhist, theres no real contradiction.

 

looking at differences is moreso a western thing

[Jetsun]

Buddhists don't seem as bothered about the lower Dan Tien as Taoists, I wonder why that is. Depending on the lineage there appears to be quite a few differences, for example the Taoist tendency to try to store energy, to bring it in and shield yourself from others appears to be in contradiction to the Bodhisattva path of complete openness and giving away all you can.

[adept]

Buddhists don't seem as bothered about the lower Dan Tien as Taoists, I wonder why that is.

 

 

The Dao has nothing to do with the dantien. That is qigong or internal alchemy and is practiced by people from both traditions.

[Jetsun]

The Dao has nothing to do with the dantien. That is qigong or internal alchemy and is practiced by people from both traditions.

 

I would have thought the Dao has quite a lot to do with the Dan Tien, otherwise why is is focused on so much by Taoists who want to harmonise themselves with the Dao ? All I'm saying is that Buddhists don't regard this of such great importance in most lineages and prefer to focus on mind training and I think it would be useful to understand why this is the case.

[baiqi]

) Buddhism talks a lot about things happen at final stage , while Taoism talks a lot about things at initial stage.

 

2) Taoist way is more suitable for middle and old-aged guys, while Buddhist is more suitable for young people ,especial teenagers, in terms of getting real achievement.

 

3) While Buddhist way only targets at spiritual immortality, Taoist targets at both physical and spiritual

immortality .

 

4) Taoist ways talk about method, fortune , companion and place(法,財,侣,地 ),Buddhist seldom mention them.

 

5)Taoist recognizes that female and male's way of cultivations are different due to their physiological differences, at least at initial stage ; In Buddhist cultivation, there are no attention to such differences.

 

I disagree with some of these statements:

 

1) Taoism talks a lot about things at initial stage. You have lots of stories about sages having attained the tao in Zhuang Zi and Lao Zi (and others..) whereas they don't really tell you how to do.

 

2) Maybe...I don't really see why you believe this?

 

3) While Buddhist way only targets at spiritual immortality, Taoist targets at both physical and spiritual immortality .

 

No. It's been a long time that no taoist (except very superstitious folk) believes in physical immortality.

 

4) That one is right.

 

5) That one seems right too, but I don't know about all buddhist schools.

[silas]

>>I'm not sure how helpful looking at the differences between Taoism and Buddhism are. Perhaps we should be looking at what they have in common instead.

 

If they were both the same, then I would agree. Classical Taoism (aka Chuang-Lao Taoism) is, in some understanding, almost completely the opposite of most forms of Buddhism. My life experiences, my inner nature, my learning, they are most at peace in classical Taoism.

 

>>Taoism talks a lot about things at initial stage. You have lots of stories about sages having attained the tao in Zhuang Zi and Lao Zi (and others..) whereas they don't really tell you how to do.

 

In classical Taoism, the classic texts (Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu) do tell you how to attain Tao, but you have to read very carefully, because the original works were mutilated. For example, the extant version of the Chuang Tzu has 33 chapters because Guo Xiang (who wanted only to study the philosophical aspects of that book) reorganized it and wrote commentary, and the revised version survives. The original Chuang Tzu is said to be 52 chapters. Nearly 40% of the original Chuang Tzu is missing, and some of the extant chapters have been redacted.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Buddhism is alien

 

Taoism is more human

 

There is no set way

 

Hence a method is useless, every path is unique!

 

find your own damn way

 

How do you expect to become immortal or 'enlightened' when you constantly put yourself in a subservient position?

 

How do you expect to find the Way or Tao if you never trust in it?

Edited August 6, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Jetsun]

"Taoist and esoteric practices begin from the perfection

of ch'i, thereby overcoming all the obstacles of the physical

body. Their first result is excellent health. The second step

in such cultivation is to reach samadhi. Confucian and

Ch'an (Buddhist) practitioners do not begin with cultivating ch'i, but

on the contrary, they start from the cultivation of mind.

The circulation of ch'i is automatically regulated by cultivating

the mind, and thus improved health of the physical

body naturally follows."

 

- Grass Mountain: A Seven Day Intensive in Ch'an Training With Master Nan Huai-Chin

[mrtiger]

Buddhists don't seem as bothered about the lower Dan Tien as Taoists, I wonder why that is. Depending on the lineage there appears to be quite a few differences, for example the Taoist tendency to try to store energy, to bring it in and shield yourself from others appears to be in contradiction to the Bodhisattva path of complete openness and giving away all you can.

 

They do in Zen. They call it the Tanden or sometimes the Hara.

 

In Zazen emphasis is put on the Tanden. Your'e supposed to move the seat of your consciousness there.

[konchog uma]

How do you expect to become immortal or 'enlightened' when you constantly put yourself in a subservient position?

 

how do you ever expect to attain anything if you don't lol

 

the way is not arrogance, enlightenment is different than an ego trip

[konchog uma]

They do in Zen. They call it the Tanden or sometimes the Hara.

 

In Zazen emphasis is put on the Tanden. Your'e supposed to move the seat of your consciousness there.

 

yeah a lot of buddhism belongs to the sutra schools (the "study" schools), which are based on philosophy and scriptures

 

tantric buddhism (the "practice" schools) is more concerned with the dan tian, in most of its forms, vajrayana, ch'an, zen, etc.

 

"buddhist breathing" in qigong, as taught to me by a ch'an monk, involves the diaphram, dantian, and perineum.

 

i think most of the reason for the idea that buddhism doesn't concern itself with vital energy or the dantian boils down to the fact that buddhism is complex and mysterious and if one hasn't actually studied it, they probably don't actually understand it. They probably understand a surface level misinterpretation of it, of which there are manymanymanyyy. For example, that it is alien. It is most fundamentally human, but most human's can't grasp it, so they reject it in a display of dualism that proves one of its foundational points.

 

ah well i digress.

Edited August 6, 2012 by anamatva

[RiverSnake]

As i continue to cultivate and my understanding of the Way and its Trials deepens...i find that my respect for the Buddha's ability to convey such a direct and deep guide for all seekers in as succinct a way is something to admire. I very much appreciate his work....and understand that although we are limited by words he did as best a job as possible in conveying his teachings at the time of his life.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace