Going Theravadin Taoist-style!

[voidisyinyang]

SereneBlue -- glad to hear you have the Master Nan, Huai-chin books -- consider yourself lucky! I gave mine away (to people who pretend to appreciate this info but really don't) and then I learn that his books have gone out of print! Now they're incredibly expensive!

 

Still I had to read his books THREE TIMES (shouting) each just to get the basic gist of his conceptual meaning. Have fun with it.

 

I have both Working Toward Enlightenment and To Realize Enlightenment. Oh..and his Tao and Longevity. Plus Bodri's 25 Doors to Meditation. I've been so busy with KAP and simply trying to get simple concentration meditation going that I've not bothered to read any of them (well...except for the 1st chapter of WtE and the 1st chapter of 25 Doors). I did finish Tao and Longevity though.

From what I've read though I think Master Nan's books are very worth reading.

 

I like the idea of trying these things out for myself so I've been thankful for all of Drew's threads and links he's provided and the assistance he's generously, personally offered me. I'm going to start trying to do some stretching exercises so I can eventually sit full-lotus and fudosi. Right now the best I can do is half-lotus. I'm not very flexible unfortunately. Still...I'm going to try.

 

 

Psst...he already has. You can find it at Amazon or Lulu.com.

 

 

Nac in line with our feminist discussion as per Tibetan Buddhism you might want to read "Dakini's Warm Breath" which is about sexual tantra but also feminism and written by a female Western Buddhist tantra professor at Naropa -- her name slips me at the moment.

 

This is in accord with Tibetan Buddhism. All Tibetan schools say it's impossible to attain complete enlightenment in this lifetime without sexual tantra. Gelugpa monks simply renounce enlightenment and try to achieve it at the moment of death.

 

 

Thanks for apologizing -- very manly of you! haha.

 

I called him schizophrenic because he was accusing me of saying, "LICK"... and because I hadn't yet discovered that he was mistaking me for Vajrasattva, I was assuming that he was referring to some sort of "psychic" experience due to the tone of his accusation, he sounded so impassioned in this error. So, it sounded borderline schizophrenic to me as I never psychically connected to him and said that to him, so it sounded like he was pulling it out of the mirage of the the schizophrenic experience? then I realized he was referring to a post that Vajrasattva wrote him and he was grouping us together. An honest mistake on his part.

 

I apologize for making this accusation.

 

 

Zencave -- you state -- "still trying to read your paper" -- WHICH paper? haha. I've destroyed my bookblog a couple times but are you referring to "When the Mothership Lands"? Or my old masters thesis "Epicenters of Justice" (2001)?.... or....

 

Mikaelz,

 

No offence but you seem to appreciate nothing but Vajra's posts. You agree with him and disagree with anyone that disagrees with him. I don't know the history but its surprising you want to categorize Drew as schizophrenic and rambling but see pure insight and clarity in Vajrahridaya's writings. Hmm, whatever rocks one's boat.

 

Drew, still trying to read your paper you linked in the other thread. Man, you truly are a genius and that explains why you get called schizophrenic . You should write a book or something.

 

Edit: And I sure hope the book will have a smaller scale of capitalization. Love you

[Smile]

So then I fasted and fasted and went to the Burmese monastery. I even shaved my head! I was in full-lotus and read tons of their books on vipassana. I worked with the Burmese to do sanctions against the military regime and my friend now funds and organizes the monastery. But they got mad at me for fasting --saying it wasn't Buddhism - and that I practiced full-lotus yoga while the vipassana is from just "mind yoga" which doesn't really sublimate the sex energy.

Fasting is not recommended for Vipassana, it's one of the rules you have to follow before you start the retreat. You will also get bliss and other "feel good" sensations during the practice, but didn't they teach you what to do with all your sensations? Nothing. Observe and let them go. Nan Huai-Chin would tell you the same thing. Full-body orgasm is just one of sensations, but a lot of meditator get stuck on it. They can even end up talking a storm about it on a forum.

 

Edit: They also recommend sitting in full lotus if one can. If one can't, it's not a big deal.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Smile

[Smile]

I have both Working Toward Enlightenment and To Realize Enlightenment. Oh..and his Tao and Longevity. Plus Bodri's 25 Doors to Meditation. I've been so busy with KAP and simply trying to get simple concentration meditation going that I've not bothered to read any of them (well...except for the 1st chapter of WtE and the 1st chapter of 25 Doors). I did finish Tao and Longevity though.

Wow, you got Bodri's 25 Doors? I couldn't get it anywhere but he gave me one of his own long time ago. I gave it away to a friend later on.

 

Anyway, those books might even confuse you even more- there is such a thing as "TOO MUCH INFORMATION", especially on this forum. I would concentrate on KAP without adding any "outside" input and give it a full shot. If it makes you happy, healthy and full of energy, stick with it.

[voidisyinyang]

Dude -- The "O at a D" is not just a full-body orgasm -- it's a MUTUAL orgasm and it happens on its own -- so no one is getting stuck on anything! And so that's WHY I write about it online -- because male practitioners doing mind yoga (vipassana, vichara, dgzochen, etc.) seem to think the internal climax is somehow secondary or some sort of obsession that is bad for practice....

 

Again Mantak Chia states very explicitly that you need to build up your power by having more and more internal climaxes -- but once the macrocosmic orbit is open then this internal climaxes are mutual -- transmitted out of the 3rd Eye.

 

So to "get stuck on it" only states that the people around you need more of your energy, thereby not enabling you or me to build up the energy for deeper levels of 3rd Eye opening, etc.

 

It's the OPPOSITE of getting stuck -- as Jim Nance told me once you can have a job or be in a situation where the energy blockages just keep happening and then you have to heal yourself again -- well if we can all "escape" to a monastery or the woods or something -- and EVEN then we might

 

"get stuck" in some stupid mind yoga practice! haha. These Theravada Monks are a sure bet to putting you to sleep -- no worries about the O at a D there! haha. Yet Westerners feel safe is some old dude is putting them to sleep -- makes them feel self-righteous like they were in church again....

 

Full-body orgasm is just one of sensations, but a lot of meditator get stuck on it. They can even end up talking a storm about it on a forum.

[nac]

Dude -- The "O at a D" is not just a full-body orgasm -- it's a MUTUAL orgasm and it happens on its own -- so no one is getting stuck on anything! And so that's WHY I write about it online -- because male practitioners doing mind yoga (vipassana, vichara, dgzochen, etc.) seem to think the internal climax is somehow secondary or some sort of obsession that is bad for practice....

 

Again Mantak Chia states very explicitly that you need to build up your power by having more and more internal climaxes -- but once the macrocosmic orbit is open then this internal climaxes are mutual -- transmitted out of the 3rd Eye.

 

So to "get stuck on it" only states that the people around you need more of your energy, thereby not enabling you or me to build up the energy for deeper levels of 3rd Eye opening, etc.

 

It's the OPPOSITE of getting stuck -- as Jim Nance told me once you can have a job or be in a situation where the energy blockages just keep happening and then you have to heal yourself again -- well if we can all "escape" to a monastery or the woods or something -- and EVEN then we might

 

"get stuck" in some stupid mind yoga practice! haha. These Theravada Monks are a sure bet to putting you to sleep -- no worries about the O at a D there! haha. Yet Westerners feel safe is some old dude is putting them to sleep -- makes them feel self-righteous like they were in church again....

I think our goals are different here. Take up those practices that give you what you're looking for.

[Smile]

Drew, I was commenting on a part of your #5 post in this thread that said: "Consider Chan Master Nan, Huai-chin who again emphasizes that in Buddhism there is an epidemic of mind yoga not transforming the body and that true practice relies on full-body orgasm."

 

Here is the advise he gave me: "Move beyond Vipassana and observing the sensations, beyond the the bliss that follows, beyond the peace and emptiness that follow. Do not attach your mind to anything, for the farther you go, the deeper you fall and the easier it is to sidetrack. Addiction to bliss, addiction to emptiness, addiction to nothingness. They are all the same and will not let you go. How are you any different then anyone else?.."

[Vajrahridaya]

Dude -- The "O at a D" is not just a full-body orgasm -- it's a MUTUAL orgasm and it happens on its own -- so no one is getting stuck on anything! And so that's WHY I write about it online -- because male practitioners doing mind yoga (vipassana, vichara, dgzochen, etc.) seem to think the internal climax is somehow secondary or some sort of obsession that is bad for practice....

 

Again Mantak Chia states very explicitly that you need to build up your power by having more and more internal climaxes -- but once the macrocosmic orbit is open then this internal climaxes are mutual -- transmitted out of the 3rd Eye.

 

So to "get stuck on it" only states that the people around you need more of your energy, thereby not enabling you or me to build up the energy for deeper levels of 3rd Eye opening, etc.

 

It's the OPPOSITE of getting stuck -- as Jim Nance told me once you can have a job or be in a situation where the energy blockages just keep happening and then you have to heal yourself again -- well if we can all "escape" to a monastery or the woods or something -- and EVEN then we might

 

"get stuck" in some stupid mind yoga practice! haha. These Theravada Monks are a sure bet to putting you to sleep -- no worries about the O at a D there! haha. Yet Westerners feel safe is some old dude is putting them to sleep -- makes them feel self-righteous like they were in church again....

 

Dzogchen is not a mind yoga.

 

How is it a mind yoga? There is the mind series of teachings, but there is space series and secret oral series of teachings. Also, this O at a D is just a sensation akin to descriptions of the form Jhanas and the energy is not as maintained. Your just clinging to a passing experience. In HYT or real sexual tantra, you have to understand emptiness and thus it's not a passing experience and you learn how to transform the energy through tumo or heat practice in the belly and raise the energy through the being.

 

We do energy work in Dzogchen and in fact the practice is mostly energy work. Vajrayana is mostly energy work. All of Tibetan Buddhism's methodology is mostly energy work, body yogas, etc.

 

You should watch these regardless of how you feel about me.

 

You are thinking feelings are liberation or something, or that if you feel bliss that you are liberated? That's what it seems.

 

I've had women come to me and see them with my minds eye start raising my sexual energy on a spirit level as I lay in bed or whatever, and you start having this experience, I've had many, many full body orgasms without ejaculation with and without a partner. It is nothing compared to the bliss of the Jhanas or samadhis in formless realms and more so the peace and energy of just recognizing dependent origination and when the karmic winds are stilled and centered in the shashumna nadi. The blue light running through the spine and one is just relaxed and blissful, shining. Of course when you are doing it with a partner you can integrate a formless samadhi or jhana with the body experience and one is just staying there not climaxing, at this peek and the entire body is opened up and you see the cosmos the stars... you see the person and you see through the person and she is licking blue light from the ajna.

 

This is all HYT (Highest Yoga Tantra) stuff. Vajrayana stuff.

 

You have some strange mental dogmas about Tibetan Buddhism being mind yoga. That's just sutra, the stuff you can talk about. There are all sorts of methods offered in Vajrayana, it's not just a bunch of talking. You seem like a smart person, but you don't seem to be open to new information that will expand your awareness.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[nac]

Here is the advise he gave me: "Move beyond Vipassana and observing the sensations, beyond the the bliss that follows, beyond the peace and emptiness that follow. Do not attach your mind to anything, for the farther you go, the deeper you fall and the easier it is to sidetrack. Addiction to bliss, addiction to emptiness, addiction to nothingness. They are all the same and will not let you go. How are you any different then anyone else?.."

Addiction to emptiness?

 

Who taught him Buddhism?

[Vajrahridaya]

I think our goals are different here. Take up those practices that give you what you're looking for.

 

Yes, I think that's it.

 

Of course.

[nac]

Nac in line with our feminist discussion as per Tibetan Buddhism you might want to read "Dakini's Warm Breath" which is about sexual tantra but also feminism and written by a female Western Buddhist tantra professor at Naropa -- her name slips me at the moment.

I've already said I don't know much about Vajrayana, as I'm neither a practitioner nor particularly interested in it. My knowledge consists of a small portion of Vajrayana's exoteric teachings, so it's possible what I said isn't entirely correct. Still, are you sure this book is relevant to my post in this context?

The Feminine in Buddhist Tantra - The Inside Story, August 31, 2001

By Michael Levin (North Andover, MA USA)

 

This review is from: Dakini's Warm Breath: The Feminine Principle in Tibetan Buddhism (Hardcover)

This book is highly readable, accurate, and informative. Beyond that, it is true to the essence of Vajrayana Buddhist teaching. Judith Simmer-Brown is both chairwoman of the religious studies department of Naropa University, and an acharya, an empowered teacher, of the Shambhala lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. It is inspired and useful reading for the practitioner of Vajrayana teachings, and should also be of benefit to someone who is contemplating that path but has not yet joined it. Her sources include personal meetings with and the oral and written teachings of several great modern teachers including Chogyam Trungpa, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, and Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, as well as many great historical teachers and texts, and the existing academic literature on the subject.

 

It is written so as to meet all the requirements of an academic contribution to religious studies, and I expect that other reviewers will praise it from that point of view also. There are excellent notes and a bibliography at the end. The subject of the dakini principle has been approached in a variety of ways in recent literature which gives one every opportunity to misunderstand it. So it is necessary to explain that this is not a Jungian interpretation of the feminine as the anima, it is not about goddess worship or modern paganism, it is not a feminist complaint that the Vajrayana exploits women, nor does it interpret Vajrayana as the worship of women (although Vajrayana offers profound respect for women). All of these views are currently available, and Simmer-Brown treats each sympathetically, but the essence of what is to be understood transcends all of them and all interpretations. Judith Simmer-Brown offers up her own feminist background as part of the feast of insight into the dakini.

 

Vajrayana wisdom is based on the Mahayana view of the three turnings of the wheel of dharma. The first turning of the wheel teaches the four noble truths, and analyzes how grasping and fixation on what we desire leads to further suffering. The second turning of the wheel teaches the emptiness of any true self, and the emptiness of all phenomena. When this vast and profound insight dawns, one is inspired to seek spiritual perfection not just for oneself but for all sentient beings. The third turning teaches that beyond emptiness, beyond any selfness of oneself or the external world, is wisdom and luminosity, inconceivable to the conceptually bound mind. It teaches that all beings have buddha nature, or the inherent capacity to evolve so as to realize this. Vajrayana Buddhism can only be understood within the context of these teachings, otherwise it degenerates into shamanism, magic, or pleasure seeking for personal ends. This book is constantly grounded in this understanding.

 

Vajrayana is the path of skillful means. It is designed to quicken the progress of those of us with female and male human bodies, and it uses many techniques to engage our bodies, our thoughts and our emotions to achieve realization and liberation. In Buddhist Vajrayana, wisdom is the feminine principle, and skillful means is the masculine principle. The feminine principle, wisdom, is primordial space, the source or womb which gives birth to all phenomena. Therefore it comes first. But both these principles are found in men and women, and their union is what sets the world on fire and produces liberation. The dakini is the personification or symbol of the feminine principle, but in some sense is also beyond gender. This is the core subject of Simmer-Brown's book.

 

Simmer-Brown's treatment of the dakini is organized around a poem by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, reprinted in the book, which speaks of the secret dakini, the inner dakini, the outer dakini, and the outer-outer dakini. The last of these is the dakini as a human woman. The discussion of these four is powerful and leisurely, and diffuses many possible misunderstandings along the way. The book really covers the entire vajrayana path. It discusses the three roots: guru, yidam and protector. It contains an amazingly lucid discussion of the mandala principle. It discusses the generation and completion stages of vajrayana practice. It explains how the transmission of the dharma across generations is kept both authentic and up-to-date by means of both the ear whispered lineage and the discovered treasure (terma) lineage, and discusses the role of the dakini in both of these. Indeed, the book appears to give away too many secrets, but what keeps it pure is the author's veneration of her teachers, her profound respect and insight into the subject, and the constant grounding of the Vajrayana in the view of Mahayana Buddhism.

 

I recommend this book to anyone who wants an introduction to the authentic essence of Buddhist Tantra, as well as someone whose specific interest is in the feminine principle or dakini. The title of the book suggests the freshness and living presence of the dakini, the breath as the ear-whispered teachings of Vajrayana, and the breath as the very essence of Buddhist meditation. If you want to know more than what Judith Simmer-Brown's book teaches, you will have to find a personal teacher.

Source: http://www.amazon.com/Dakinis-Warm-Breath-...e/dp/157062920X Edited October 20, 2009 by nac

[nac]

Yes, I think that's it.

 

Of course.

No really, I'm not sure drewhempel realizes how different our goals are. He seems to want enlightenment-experiences, magic powers and having as much fun with these as possible, while we're used to seeing everything through the dark glasses of Bodhicitta. If that's really what he wants, I'd advise him to avoid Hinduism, Buddhism and Indo-Tibetan tantra. (perhaps authentic Taoism too, I wouldn't know)

Edited October 20, 2009 by nac

[Sunya]

This is in accord with Tibetan Buddhism. All Tibetan schools say it's impossible to attain complete enlightenment in this lifetime without sexual tantra. Gelugpa monks simply renounce enlightenment and try to achieve it at the moment of death.

 

hm? i've never heard this. where did you learn this?

[voidisyinyang]

I just sit in full-lotus as long as possible. Pretty simple. haha. As for all the conceptual philosophy stuff well I'm sure it all contradicts itself like the sound of animal noise.

 

No really, I'm not sure drewhempel realizes how different our goals are. He seems to want enlightenment-experiences, magic powers and having as much fun with these as possible, while we're used to seeing everything through the dark glasses of Bodhicitta. If that's really what he wants, I'd advise him to avoid Hinduism, Buddhism and Indo-Tibetan tantra. (perhaps authentic Taoism too, I wouldn't know)

[Deepbluesea]

Without meaning to offend anyone, I avidly read the posts of all parties concerned, I find it absolutely hilarious -- like spit-your-green-tea-on-the-monitor hilarious, that Drew mistook Vajrahridaya for Vajrasattva.

 

Please; Drew, Nac, and Vajrahridaya don't change anything, I love the endless word circles you run around each other -- laughing WITH you.

[Smile]

So, who wants to register a new name Vajrahridattva?

[Vajrahridaya]

Without meaning to offend anyone, I avidly read the posts of all parties concerned, I find it absolutely hilarious -- like spit-your-green-tea-on-the-monitor hilarious, that Drew mistook Vajrahridaya for Vajrasattva.

 

Please; Drew, Nac, and Vajrahridaya don't change anything, I love the endless word circles you run around each other -- laughing WITH you.

 

Awesome!! I think Drew is gone for now though. Ah well. I'm sure our fearless orgasmic healer at a distance will be back.

 

EDIT: oooppps. I take that back... Heeeeeee's baaaaaaack.

So, who wants to register a new name Vajrahridattva?

 

You know, I think if I knew that there was a Vajrasattva here before me, I would not have chosen my E-Sangha name for here too. Clarity is nice, though chaos can be fun too.

 

At least Vajrasattva is not some bum, he's actually a nice person to be mistaken for. I just hope next time it's for the right reasons.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[voidisyinyang]

Well I want to STAY in my diapers.

[Vajrahridaya]

I just sit in full-lotus as long as possible. Pretty simple. haha. As for all the conceptual philosophy stuff well I'm sure it all contradicts itself like the sound of animal noise.

 

Actually, Buddhism has the unique flavor of not being paradoxical and contradictory in the entirety of it. Though it can take up complimentary contradictions as a way to show multiple angles or perspectives on a single topic or insight.

 

Full lotus will not liberate you, if that's your goal at least. Only insight will liberate you. Liberation is not a sensation or a body experience, it's a state of mind that integrates with the body in any position, be it lotus, half lotus, upside down, doggy style.

 

Doesn't matter. When one see's that all things are luminous by nature and all inner and outer arisings are non-abiding, without inherent essence other than infinite potential, then nothing can stop you, not even an injured knee that keeps you from sitting in full lotus.

 

But, yes... it is very nice to be able to sit in full lotus a lot. It's beneficial for sure and highly recommended, just not as a dogma.

[voidisyinyang]

I just read this from Mt. Wudang:

 

All meditation should be carried out by sitting cross-legged?

 

Outside formality cannot always reveal something inside. Some practitioners brag about his/her ability of sitting full lotus posture in long time, showing offer their accomplishment in the course. But, the attainment inside matters the most in terms of the advancement. Towards such case, some masters liken it to the effect of "using bamboo basket to spoon moon in the water surface." In format, it is close to the concept of meditation but in fact, it distances from the true value very far away!

[Vajrahridaya]

As for all the conceptual philosophy stuff well I'm sure it all contradicts itself like the sound of animal noise.

 

Also, if you took the time to check out the links I posted for you...

here's one of them. You'll see that Vajrayana is a yoga that balances mind, energy and body and uses yogas that involve all aspects for development. So, it's a complete system and actually Vajrayana because it's tantra, most of it's methodology is about energy, drops/bindus/tigles, and channels/chakras. Even Dzogchen is mostly about energy and there are specific Dzogchen body yoga techniques, like this...

Dzogchen has three main systems of teaching, from mind teachings, to space teachings which uses symbols as metaphors for the realized state such as mirrors and crystals, contemplations, visualizations and body postures as well as the secret oral teachings.

 

Anyway... yes... this is a Taoist board. But the welcome page says this board allows for all views to dance and play here.

 

I just read this from Mt. Wudang:

 

All meditation should be carried out by sitting cross-legged?

 

Outside formality cannot always reveal something inside. Some practitioners brag about his/her ability of sitting full lotus posture in long time, showing offer their accomplishment in the course. But, the attainment inside matters the most in terms of the advancement. Towards such case, some masters liken it to the effect of "using bamboo basket to spoon moon in the water surface." In format, it is close to the concept of meditation but in fact, it distances from the true value very far away!

 

Yes, like clay, you can put it in any position and make it look complicated and tied up, but it doesn't change it's substance until it's cooked at a very high temperature.

[voidisyinyang]

Edited October 21, 2009 by drewhempel

[Vajrahridaya]

[voidisyinyang]

Vaj Aileen wants to teach you now....

 

http://www.wildcoastqigong.com/qigong-classes.html

[Vajrahridaya]

Vaj Aileen wants to teach you now....

 

http://www.wildcoastqigong.com/qigong-classes.html

This is nice. But, I'm about to cuddle with my girlfriend who just got home from work and watch last nights episode of Heroes.

 

Thank you for the invite, maybe another time? I have taken Qigong classes but that was about... 25 years ago I think? I love everything about it though.

[voidisyinyang]

Edited October 21, 2009 by drewhempel