S:C

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Posts posted by S:C

  1. Posted

    1 hour ago, dwai said:

    abrahamic

    Indeed not that easy to come toward nondualism from this direction. If one wishes to bypass science and the word consciousness and go by judeo-christian systematics, the older judaic concept of Adam Kadmon (splinters of light without vessels) and the older concept of the Holy Spirit (dove, light, different languages, e.g. distinct but inherent) might be of more help. 

     

    [Both imply, that in corporeal form they have a distinct inherent quality that is not of their own but universal, even if somewhat hidden, imo.]

  2. Posted · Edited by schroedingerscat
    lack of good words

    8 hours ago, steve said:

    see more talk about practice and less about theory

    Good call! 

     

    Maybe it might be also be interesting to look at the 'effects' of (non-dual) gnosis in the pragmatical matter of fact aspect of life, not only the effects and phenomenons in meditation (like lights, colours and so on). 

     

     

    I'd be interested, if there could be found some commonalities of those who entered (non-dual) gnosis. (Day by day seemingly nothing changes, but if you look back, everything is different? Or rather sudden changes or else...)

    Did your body change, did you become averse to some, attracted to others? More sensitive, more balanced or the contrary? 

    Did you perceive 'energetics' differently than before? Times of many synchronicities and phases where there were none? What patterns are at work there?

     

    • Like 3

  3. Posted · Edited by schroedingerscat
    awful misspellings

    2 hours ago, dwai said:

    So how would one act accordingly then?

    As many others have already pointed out...: In order to be functional in the corporeal dual 'reality'

    you'd need both things, I guess:

     

    embracing the unity/nonduality via surrender/non-action/passivity/stillness

    and live also the duality/individuality/personhood that means acting/commitment/dedication/devotion to action if you realize it is important be it survival, conscience, morals, "gut feelings" (that means intuition if you have any) or else. 

     

    Via time the impacts this (friction from the stillness of mind) has on your emotional upheaval/reactivity should get smaller or affect you less... as long as you reflect em (maybe also because you just get exhausted or used to it.)

    This might allow for space to be filled. 

    (That's my guess.)

     

     

    Actions then might be more fit, even, rounded, balanced and centered, taking in consideration more of the surroundings and thus better outcome in the whole.

    Spoiler

    In theory this seems logical, no?

    Practicability, well...

    Would that be a possible interpretation of wei Wu wei?

     

    I believe Ayurveda also has this concept of Tamas (Passivity) and Rajas (Passion) when it comes to the constitution of the psyche, both are viewn as pathological. Aim is to avoid these pathologies and get to sattvaguna (equilibrium) ... but whom am I telling this on a forum like this, you probably well know this already. What's funny about this is the subgroups: sattvika has seven and sounds really cultivated, rajasika has six subgroups and the intensest sounds like the race car macho who got the car from his father's money (no offense!) and tamasika has only three, where the most passive one sounds like a bare vegetable (probably an insult to every vegetable!).

     

    Somewhat I don't imagine an infinite 'consciousness' in the way @Bindis article describes it so eloquently with four layers, that are still very much manifest in space and time, in my reading of it. Infinity in my worldview is always also time and spacebound, with gravity and so on... In my imagination what I mean would be more unmanifested awareness potential but in a different 'dimension' (not within time/space/gravity - just another concept probably).

     

    One question for @stirling: this approach that there isn't even unity or 'the one' but none, this isn't typical Advaita, is it? Where is it from, it's intriguing but particularly hard to grasp for me...

     

     

     

    • Like 1

  4. Posted

    On 9.5.2022 at 5:24 AM, stirling said:

    practice perspective there are MANY books that could recommended instead

    I'd like that. Also those that explain the 'bardo states' or 'death' from the tibetan perspective in general and abstract while being understandable and not full of poetry.

     

    18 hours ago, Nungali said:

    have  been working with a friend , over the years who desires to undertake initiation in such a tradition

    Are you at liberty to say which tradition you were teaching?

    18 hours ago, Nungali said:

    Moving into the Light '

     

    9 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

    near death experience

    Interesting, for some it's light (so also Andy Irons, the Surfer), others see/hear their God, others simply watch from above, others...

    • Like 1

  5. Posted

    1 hour ago, Bindi said:

    if no one exists and nothing exists

    And then there were none... Indeed an interesting turn of events: first: no-second (nondual), second: none. where did the one go? Feels like 'the ending of time' 

    Spoiler

    Title of some maybe related debates by Jiddu Krishnamurti and David Bohm. Readable intellectually as well as with experience, I guess.

    and existence.

    Spoiler

    Why then is there still perception of thrilled unrest inside me? 😼 Annoying.

     

    • Like 1

  6. Posted · Edited by schroedingerscat
    C. working in dreams etc., add on further qualia info

    12 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

    Perceptions usually appear via the senses (eyes, ears, nose, skin etc.). But this is beyond senses or perceptions. What is it in us that 'experiences' without sensory organs? Qualia - on a science level?

    Qualia seem to be individual subjective instances of conscious experience. But they seem forever embedded in sensory perception. (If not familiar with the concept of Qualia, but interested, see hidden content or elsewhere.)

    As if consciousness being some kind of a projection surface (you still know the old slide projectors, where light went through the photo to be displayed on the canvas / screen?) ... what is it if there's nothing projected on it? Empty? Full of unmanifested possibilities? So consciousness 'translates' matters of matter/substance? But is not of substance / matter itself?

     

    Edit: I will agree, that it also works in nighttime dreams, daytime aspirations and thoughts that seem to have no basis in matter or the past, at least no obvious connection. But even there, in the dream perception, you perceive via 'unreal/dreamt' sense organs, same with thoughts and aspirations.

     

    Edit II: If we say: usual experiences come in via sense organs get translated (via neurons, mostly pyramidal neurons, neural cells, processed by the prefrontal cortex etc. pp) into perceptions and thoughts/concepts/aspirations via 'consciousness', might that be a close call? But then again, what is it that perceives without that in 'gnosis'? What is witnessed if there is 'nothing to witness' ? Who is witnessing it, if in 'gnosis' you are not in a 'place' where matter exists ? 'Consciousness' (witness?) alone witnesses itself? But how does it get to the intrinsic ability to have perception of its own, if in the moments of volition it was just the 'translator' / 'interpreter' of what came in 'from the outside'? Please correct me, if you guess it's otherwise..!

     

    21 hours ago, Apech said:

    Experiences are dualistic therefore.

     

    11 hours ago, dwai said:

    What makes experience possible? Consciousness. Consciousness IS NOT an emergent property of matter.

    Spoiler

    Opinions on Qualia existence:

    Quote

    Gerald Edelman in his book Bright Air, Brilliant Fire argues:[53]

    One alternative that definitely does not seem feasible is to ignore completely the reality of qualia, formulating a theory of consciousness that aims by its descriptions alone to convey to a hypothetical “qualia-free” observer what it is to feel warmth, see green, and so on. In other words, this is an attempt to propose a theory based on a kind of God's-eye view of consciousness. But no scientific theory of whatever kind can be presented without already assuming that observers have sensation as well as perception. To assume otherwise is to indulge the errors of theories that attempt syntactical formulations mapped onto objectivist interpretations—theories that ignore embodiment as a source of meaning (see the Postscript). There is no qualia-free scientific observer.

    — Gerald Edelman, 1992, p. 115
     

    Antonio Damasio in his book The Feeling Of What Happens states:[54]

    Qualia are the simple sensory qualities to be found in the blueness of the sky or the tone of sound produced by a cello, and the fundamental components of the images in the movie metaphor are thus made of qualia. (...) The mind and its consciousness are first and foremost private phenomena, much as they offer many public signs of their existence to the interested observer. The conscious mind and its constituent properties are real entities, not illusions, and they must be investigated as the personal, private, subjective experiences that they are. The idea that subjective experiences are not scientifically accessible is nonsense.

    — Antonio Damasio, 1999

    Neurologist Rodolfo Llinás states in his book I of the Vortex that from a strictly neurological perspective, qualia exist and are very important to the organism's survival. He argues that qualia were important for the evolution of the nervous system of organisms, including simple organism such as insects:[56]

    There are today two similar beliefs concerning the nature of qualia. The first is that qualia represent an epiphenomenon that is not necessary for the acquisition of consciousness. Second and somewhat related is the belief that while being the basis for consciousness, qualia appeared only in the highest life forms, suggesting that qualia represent a recently evolved central function that is present in only the more advanced brains. This view relegates the more lowly animals, for example ants, to a realm characterized by the absence of subjective experiences of any kind. It implies that these animals are wired with sets of automatic, reºexively organized circuits that provide for survival by maintaining a successful, albeit purely reactive interaction with the ongoing external world. Although primitive creatures such as ants and cockroaches may be wildly successful, for all practical purposes they are biological automatons.

    — Rodolfo Llinás, 2002, pp. 201-221

     

    Vilayanur S. Ramachandran and William Hirstein[58] proposed three laws of qualia (with a fourth later added), which are "functional criteria that need to be fulfilled in order for certain neural events to be associated with qualia" by philosophers of the mind:

    1. Qualia are irrevocable and indubitable. You don't say 'maybe it is red but I can visualize it as green if I want to'. An explicit neural representation of red is created that invariably and automatically 'reports' this to higher brain centres.
    2. Once the representation is created, what can be done with it is open-ended. You have the luxury of choice, e.g., if you have the percept of an apple you can use it to tempt Adam, to keep the doctor away, bake a pie, or just to eat. Even though the representation at the input level is immutable and automatic, the output is potentially infinite. This isn't true for, say, a spinal reflex arc where the output is also inevitable and automatic. Indeed, a paraplegic can even (...).
    3. Short-term memory. The input invariably creates a representation that persists in short-term memory – long enough to allow time for choice of output. Without this component, again, you get just a reflex arc.
    4. Attention. Qualia and attention are closely linked. You need attention to fulfill criterion number two; to choose. A study of circuits involved in attention, therefore, will shed much light on the riddle of qualia.[59]

    What these authors propose is to approach qualia from an empirical perspective and not as a logical or philosophical problem. On page 433, the authors wonder how qualia evolved. Then, they mention that it is possible to adopt a skeptical point of view and argue that, since the objective scientific description of the world is complete without qualia, it is nonsense to ask the question of why they evolved or what qualia are for.

     

    Roger Orpwood: Sensory input is necessary to gain information from the environment, and perception of that input is necessary for navigating and modifying interactions with the environment. This suggests that frontal regions containing more complex pyramidal networks are associated with an increased perceptive capacity. As perception is necessary for conscious thought to occur, and since the experience of qualia is derived from consciously recognizing some perception, qualia may indeed be specific to the functional capacity of pyramidal networks. This derives Orpwood's notion that the mechanisms of re-entrant feedback may not only create qualia, but also be the foundation to consciousness. Orpwood does not deny the existence of qualia, nor does he intend to debate its physical or non-physical existence. Rather, he suggests that qualia are created through the neurobiological mechanism of re-entrant feedback in cortical systems.

    (from the english wikipedia entry on qualia.)

    Qualia seem indeterminate: unobservable in others and unquantifiable in us. We cannot possibly be sure, when discussing individual qualia, that we are even discussing the same phenomena. Whether or not qualia or consciousness can play any causal role in the physical world remains an open question.

     

    Sorry for my laymen science rambling (c&p from wiki), - sometimes I need this to translate it and see by your reactions (hopefully) if I got any close to what you were saying.

     

    10 hours ago, Apech said:

    realisation is not mental but involves the whole being

     

    So 'gnosis' is not spiritual and not mental, and comes with cessation of volition e.g. stillness? Alright.

    But if (individual? nonindividual?) consciousness is not on the (lack of better words) dimension of substance, how on earth can it work itself out energetically (electric spin magnetism ?) or via non individual volition, - so to speak - cross the border from the immaterial to the material lands? There would have to be an interaction point... a (divine ?) 'spark' so to speak (but then again, we'd be back to the word gnosis .... seems like forever moving in a circle with words and concepts.)

     

  7. Posted

    9 hours ago, steve said:

    depends on what is meant by spirit

    Good question... was asking because from what you wrote I gathered, that (mental ?) non dual realization has yet nothing to do with spiritually, which made me curious on how you made that distinction (experience?) ?

    8 hours ago, Bindi said:

    [atman] consciousness has great knowledge and will but no agency to carry out that knowledge if my lower consciousness doesn’t hear

     

    8 hours ago, Apech said:

    is a term in Western systems and does not really come up in dharmic systems unless you count prana

     

    Spirit, if I had to try to get to it's meaning... well the book of the apostles comes to mind (Pentecost/ Whitsuntide). From the wording, spiritus, it seems to refer to a distilled essence. spiritus ( Latin) Origin & history From spīrō ("I breathe, I respire; I live"). Noun spīritus ( genitive spīritūs) (masc.) breath, breathing but also aspiration or lack thereof as well as some animating force. 

    It seems to be related to the translation of  'Atman'... (original pali: breath of life, pneuma).

    So some'thing' pervading life, felt and perceived only if individual 'volition' is left behind? (Reminds me more of the empty space in atoms, but that again is some'thing' of matter, not empty as in that which perceives without senses or mind. (consciousness?)

     

    So non-dual gnosis is non spiritual per se, but not a mental concept either, but works also physically via 'energetics'? 

    • Like 3

  8. Posted · Edited by schroedingerscat
    add-on question

    Great discussion! Two questions, if I may...

     

    On 3.5.2022 at 11:07 PM, Mark Foote said:

    experience of action of the body without the exercise of volition (choice) occurs in the fourth of the initial concentrations

    4 hours ago, stirling said:

    gnosis - not like being philosophically convinced. The "emptiness" or "unity" of things can be seen at any time, despite the now fading "self" still being present. It's exciting, yes - but not something anyone is in control of. Optimizing practices or choosing to strengthen it is not why it deepens. It is understood that what is happening is nothing to do with "you" or any sense of agency or volition. 

     

    1 hour ago, stirling said:

    ... I would say that both would available to focus on at any time

     

    1) What role does 'will' or 'volition' play here? So first 'gnosis' happens without volition, but later on it would be possible via (individual ?) volition to focus on / switch between the nondual reality or the dual one?

     

    2) How would you say must the word 'experience' under these circumstances be then defined? Perceptions usually appear via the senses (eyes, ears, nose, skin etc.). But this is beyond senses or perceptions. What is it in us that 'experiences' without sensory organs? Qualia - on a science level? (You might call it Atman or the Source of possibilities?)

    9 hours ago, Apech said:

    are not experiences since the English word means 'tested out' - as in we experience heat and cold which are environmental conditions, we might experience mental states because we have separated our 'selves' from our minds

    On 6.5.2022 at 10:58 PM, dwai said:

    Anything you can experience is not the [Atman]

    On 3.5.2022 at 1:26 PM, dwai said:

    There is no “nondual” perception. There is nondual realization. Non-duality is not an experience. Anything you can experience is not reality. 


    Edit: one more question... - what does development of 'subtle channels' etc. have to do with any of this? Why then, if realization of this and integration into life is (so to speak) the goal of non-dualists ... why is every other

    system oriented toward 'energetics'?

     

    and one more: where does spirit come into the equation?

    23 hours ago, steve said:

    non-dual realization has nothing to do with spiritual development, which is an activity of mind

     

     

    P.S: Sorry if I seem lost, I probably am.

    I do like a lot of all of your posts, but forgot to hit the like button. Much appreciated.

     

    • Like 3

  10. Posted · Edited by questionmark

    : @ralisProbably I didn't even understand your original question about whether my linking of an article on the magnetic pole shifting was related to anthropogenic warming. 

    How should I know? Can humans do make the pole shift? Is this correlation or causality? Both opinions alright with me. The outcome, not so much. Wasting energy on political discussions online will not save any energy, neither that of a human, nor that generated by us and running through the cables.

    This is just nothing I wish to discuss here or at all, at the moment. Why should I have to?   :-| 

  11. Posted · Edited by questionmark
    new post instead

    1 hour ago, ralis said:

    consensus among climate scientists (98%) is AGW is caused by human activity.

    Okay cool.

     

    1 hour ago, ralis said:

    See Dr. Guy McPherson PhD Evolutionary Biologist “Nature Bats Last” on YouTube. 

    No thanks. I trust you on this matter.

     

  12. Posted

    1 hour ago, ralis said:

    asked the Anthropogenic Global Warming deniers to leave. There is one signed in at this very moment. 

    if you were thinking of me, when you wrote this, would like to inform you that I haven't build a firm conviction of my own on this matter, as I am no scientist specialized in this area, but just follow the general consensus - as my mind is really elsewhere (obviously). but I can leave, if I need to have a firm conviction on this to stay (something that seems increasingly hard these times.)

  17. Posted · Edited by questionmark

    12 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

    confused about the differences between dispersal & leakage

    follow up question on this... maybe it's just my lacking language skills. 

     

    I've read that according to TCM (?) for example ginseng will "disperse" the Qi.

    It doesn't feel like "leakage" though, if I take it (alright in a combination with other supplements, maybe then it's "overwritten"

    by the others)

    Leakage, sounds to me like it just drops out gravity like as soon the critical point is reached. Disperse sounds to me like its heat that gives some of it away to the surroundings. 

    Is that correct? I've looked it up in dictionary but cannot grasp the difference somehow. 

     

    Is disperse then only used when people are consolidating / cultivating Jung? 🧐 (I guess not!? So cultivators do no more have loss of Jing?!)

    So it's a bad thing to 'disperse' (e.g. via Ginseng) if you have a momentarily lack of Jing? How would one know, simply observing ones wishes for "exciting activities"?

     

    and before I forget, I always get confused when people talk about Jing/Qi/Shen... are they talking about the status of a non cultivator or that of one who reached the change from acquired to congenital (xiantien, houtien etc.)?

     

    Because when people talk about Qi, does it mean, they have consolidated Jing to Qi? Or are they talking about what everyone, including non cultivators have? Is that a one time milestone or a ongoing challenge? 

  20. Posted · Edited by questionmark
    found thread etc. adding thoughts together

    On 21.3.2022 at 3:49 PM, Mark Foote said:

    experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations.

    in fainting too? 

    quite interesting, thanks.

     

    is there a medical explanation for this phenomenon? why does this happen and what for?

     

    edit: no disrespect, just curiosity.

     

    addendum:

    just before signing up here, I had read a story here in the forum about a 18 year old (edit: young 25 years old) woman (just after finishing school graduation) who went to a retreat for several days, which was not monitored very well, there was only video instructions and they weren't allowed to talk. (forgot the name of the group, some male master via old video, seemingly lots of people.)

     

    she mentioned getting in _ some _ that clear light state, but no one took her seriously or could help her. (staff denied her asking for answers, parents sent her to the clinic and she got meds, but somehow still managed to throw herself of a bridge twice... as she didn't properly ended her life the first time - she thought what she experienced was death, and she should have died that time and something must have gone wrong - in her opinion - , so she wanted to 'fulfill' the experience or like... ) and no one had any idea what was going on. but the retreat seemed to have worked just too well for her. (better than she could handle. stated some members here. - probably another thread yet.)

     

    search engine seems to have lost it for me, - there even was a newspaper article, (but I remember @Nungali posted his 'mystical waterfall story' just below... still couldn't find it.) so this seems to happen occasionally, thus my asking about it.

    anyone who remembers this thread? 

    what happened?

     

    Edit II:

    found the thread again... Goenka retreat it was. Thanks, @Mark Foote

    it doesn't mention if she saw "the" clear light, (- must have been speculation on my part here) AND it only has  a pretty picture of a waterfall posted by @Limahong not the waterfall story I mentioned up (probably read those parallel and made a connection.)

     

     

    Edit III:

    about this, I had the thought, - even if heretic - that it might be symbolism, - sun and moon often stand for polar energies quite intense ones, - water, earth and air (metal and or wood) often stand for something else in this context, depending on the origins (indian, daoist, western) of the text.

    like e.g. the story of Jesus and Pete when they were walking on the waters, it might be also seen 'merely' symbolic, depending on the context and perspective you take (belief in contrast to 'strange emotions and/or doubt', - like that story with the four people who had the same divine experience, and the only one who didn't went mad was the one who went home praising God and doing him the honours with his arts... don't know where I read the story, but it seems to be going 'round...)

    On 23.3.2022 at 8:13 PM, Mark Foote said:

    earth as though it were water, floating through the air.  The one that stands out for me is "stroking the sun and moon with the hand".

    • Like 1

  21. Posted · Edited by questionmark

    1 hour ago, awaken said:

    當你的注意力是有彈性的情況下，這股電流感走到一個程度，你會打開第三眼，會看見光，各種光的顏色會在你的第三眼出現，這就是光感，這種光通常比較像北極光，會在你眼前流動，有時候光比較強，也會形成一個圓。

     

    Sounds poetic (translated in my language). Thank you!

     

    Truth is, I am a bit afraid of too much or too strong experiences at the moment. Awakening of the inner body sounds pretty intense. My main ambition here is to relax and get - without sleeping or entering deep sleep - to a state of inside calmness - which hopefully gives me the benefit and relaxation of deep sleep (without actually deep sleeping), not looking for more - at the moment at least -, so maybe this is the wrong exercise for me then. But thank you anyways.

     

  22. Posted · Edited by questionmark
    hope I quoted alright, language issues

    1 hour ago, awaken said:

    真正的練法，不管是道家還是佛家，都是呼吸下手，但是並非停留在呼吸，可能幾秒鐘之後，就轉移到氣感，幾分鐘之後，就轉移到光感，半小時之後，就轉移到入定，一個多小時後，就出定，幾乎都是這樣的程序。

    Could you go into detail with this? 

    I thought the whole point was to focus on the body part as a scope / form (but not the physicality), while gently letting the body breathe. 

     

    What is the "sense of Qi" 就轉移到氣感，"sense of light" 就轉移到光感，"concentration" 就轉移到入定 and  what do you mean with "manifested / fixed"一就出定? 

     

    (That is kind of what I gathered with translation.)

     

    So you are saying it goes from "breath" -> "sense of qi" -> "sense of light" -> "concentration" -> "form"? And that depending on how long you 'sit and practice'? 

    The goal is somewhat centering, coming to the center, I guess? Or does it go beyond that? 

     

     

  23. Posted · Edited by questionmark
    unsure with words

    What, I believe, helped me when I did this exercise months back, was like Mitchell said, to listen to the body, - to feel awareness like the body part mentioned is a loudspeaker (struggling with English here, maybe the word I mean is amplifier? like the new sonos thing, where they have microphone (in) and loudspeaker (out) and giving out a bigger signal than from the source it comes from). (it works with music relaxation.)And it worked best for me (like losing body contours, but gaining presence (unfitting word?) in surroundings)  when I was mentally (& ideally physically) exhausted, so after mentally stimulating work over long periods of time. Then it worked great. Now, not so much, at the moment I struggle with focus and mind wandering. And when I do this now, it seems like I project/imagine the body part in front of me, but not at the place where it actually is. Which is wrong, I guess. 

     

    (I don't do this with any other purpose, than to slow down brain activity and get to a more relaxed physical / balanced state, lol.)

     

     

    @Shadow_self, I believe in the exercise Mitchell said _not_ to follow the breath in and out, but to rest awareness on the specific scope, am I wrong here or are you following another lecture? 

     

    It's probably good to have anatomical knowledge, - I only know (via surfing & other stuff) that there are muscles where I never knew there could be some... so that's a challenge too, for me, or listen to the diaphragm... where's that supposed to be and what's that like (tough one...)?

     

     

    • Like 2

  25. Posted

    On 10.8.2019 at 6:12 AM, Nungali said:

    Roasted dandelion root, some cardamom pod and a piece of cinnamon bark in the espresso machine .  Yaaa - ummm !

     

    Dandichino

     

     

    cefcae54.jpg

     

     

    Its also a diuretic

    Looks good! :) How do you roast the dandelion roots? And/or which brands of dandelion root tea do you recommend? (Never seen that anywhere here...)