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ren/humanity仁 refers to conformism


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#49 dawei

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 11:20 AM

this passage in Mencius, which is part of the reason why I believe that the most profound meaning of Ren in a Confucian sense is Human Potential:

 

I was looking at this again too and came across a very similar passage which draws me to (I think) the same conclusions... however this is translated, it is oriented on the 'human' aspect...

 

but in the end,  Heaven, Earth, and the Sage are not going to confirm to this as they conform to transcendent aspect; they are 'not REN'.



#50 sillybearhappyhoneyeater

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 01:39 PM

oh, i walked in on a blood feud!!

 

 

I saw a great sign in shanghai once, where there was a picture of individual calligraphic strokes making up the entirety of the character for tiger, or alternately for elephant - each successive stroke had a bigger patch of red ink, symbolizing blood- and then as the sign progressed- they started going into the character "ren," for human, finally ending in the ren we are talking about in this thread (sorry, chinese input not on this computer).  so basically, the sign was about wildlife protection - with tiger, elephant, and then man - finally with "benevolance" or "correct action" or however people want to incorrectly translate three thousand year old characters into english - so basically the sign's meaning was "first it is tigers, then elephants, then people? is that moral?"

Chinese is a wondefully ingenious language!!!


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#51 Marblehead

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 02:54 AM

Yeah, this is a little off topic but still linked in a way.  "Correct action" is a human attribute, not one of the Tao except in limited perspective.

 

China had done a great job saving the Panda.  I don't hear much about their efforts to save the Tiger and Elephant.  But man has been killing them long enough, I think.  It's about time efforts were made to protect them now.

 

Nature (Tao) would allow them to naturally go extinct.  But man has forced the issue.  Forcing things is not the Way of Tao.

 

Tao is impartial.  Man is partial and that is why man is not following the Way of Tao in this regard (ren).

 

And yes, I can imagine the joy of working with the Chinese language in the written form, being able to build upon root characters in order to express a more complicated thought.

 

With Tao's impartiality, Tao is seeking only balance, benefiting the totality.  With man's partiality, man is seeking to create imbalance, benefiting only himself.

 

So from this perspective, yes, the Sage would be like Tao.


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#52 ChiDragon

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 07:20 PM

My two-headed snake....
I am always follow your ping-pong thoughts with consistency. One way or the other but not both which made it inconsistent.


Edited by ChiDragon, 10 November 2014 - 07:22 PM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#53 Marblehead

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 02:55 AM

My two-headed snake....
I am always follow your ping-pong thoughts with consistency. One way or the other but not both which made it inconsistent.

But ChiDragon, at least I am consistently inconsistent.

 

But then, for me to state that anything is static would be an error as well.

 

And I do reserve the right to change my mind.

 

Tao has given me everything I have ever needed.  If I had been born in sub-Sahara Africa I would likely feel differently.  But this difference would be a result of the nature of the planet, not of Tao.


  • ChiDragon said thanks for this

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Peace & Contentment!


#54 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 08:36 PM

I thought to say when posting earlier that it seems obvious enough Chuang Tzu was making a bit of a caricature of Confucius, and that when talking about ren, it’s not what it’s definition is, but how it was perceived by sages, which is that it was over-systematized.  Heaven and Earth’s behaviour doesn’t follow these precepts.  Dao follows it’s own way.



#55 Marblehead

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 03:13 AM

If ever there were direct opposites it would be that of Confucius and Chuang Tzu.

 

And this opposition applies to the concept of humanity as well.


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