Simon V. Posted October 25, 2005 Simon, try to find the actual poster. If you want I will see if I can dig up the company I bought it from. It was like $12 or something and is beautiful. Re: the "dirtiness" of Western Magick, it's an interesting insight and I've been chewing on it since it's been posted. I have similar intuitions and I'm wondering what the meaning is. I suspect that at least some of it is, as Westerners, we are more in tune with the "bad karma" of our gene-pool. Whereas we might have a tendency to look at the Eastern paths with a certain degree of naivety that comes from unfamiliarity and also from a subtle glamorization of the "foreign mystique". Kind of like a "grass is always greener" ... or "things always look better from far away" kind of phenomenon. The tendency for Westerners to fetishize foreign cultures, exacerbated by the typically serene, beautiful, aesthetic images of the "East" we are presented with by media, particularly spiritual-media. This in contrast to the more nitty-gritty reality of "our people" chanting in English or working with the underbelly of Christian imagery ... the latter seems "tainted" somehow. Perhaps by a hyper-awareness of our own culture's sins and "shadow". Hope this makes sense. Rushed post, sorry, I'm on lunch break. Sean. 8399[/snapback] Tibetan occult culture certainly has its shady side too. Through fraternizing with kadgyu buddhists I've become aware of the nastiness of some elements of Tibetan politics. Learning about the history of the Dalai Lamas is a nice dip in cold, disillusioning water. The office of the Dalai Lama (of the Gelugpa or youngest lineage--the Dalai Lama is only the political head of the Tibetans, but is only the spiritual head of the Gelugpas, not of the other lineages) has been very nasty to the Kadgyu lineage over the centuries. One thing I've learned: there is a difference between true lamas with big hearts and deep understanding of 'emptiness', and 'buddhist magicians', talented people who have successfully gone through the very effective Tibetan mind training program. A very good book on this whole topic of occult shadiness and how to trump it: "Psychic Self Defence" by Dion Fortune. Don't be dissuaded by the cheesy seeming (from our modern cultural perspective) connotations of the title. Much insight into magic in general in there. Simon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sean Posted November 4, 2005 So some eastern tradition compared to Bardon may as well carry a hell of dark things, it's just we are not tuned into perceiving it, like you write in your post.It might in addition be that the idea of the would-be dark things around western magic are to some extent purposefully created by the Church and the bourgoise establishment to scare us away (witches! evil sorcerers!) - and these images are now so deeply imbedded in our psyche that we too well tune into it! Great post affenbrot. One thing I wanted to add is that I also think the dark things around western religion and magick maybe are also more resonant with us because they reflect the particular karma and sins and fears on the cultural layer of our collective psyche (as Westerners) back to us. It's our cultural Shadow (via Jung), our repressed dark side underneath the so-called "good" of our values (ie: individuality, youth, progress, technology, etc.) that we emphasize in our memes. Could be why they scare us so badly and maybe why they are potent symbols and archetypes to work with. It's super taboo to say that you are working with Luciferian or Satanic archetypes, but in some ways I believe this can really be legitimate Shadow work, and a genuine move toward the proper resolution of fracturing dualities passed on to us by a very dichotomized and linear Western religious model. A very good book on this whole topic of occult shadiness and how to trump it: "Psychic Self Defence" by Dion Fortune. Don't be dissuaded by the cheesy seeming (from our modern cultural perspective) connotations of the title. Simon, do you still work with Dion's material? She strikes me as a very balanced and saner Crowley. Does the material in this book provide anything over learning banishing rituals? Thanks, Sean. PS - Another rushed lunch post. Apologize for any incoherence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rex Posted November 4, 2005 It's super taboo to say that you are working with Luciferian or Satanic archetypes, but in some ways I believe this can really be legitimate Shadow work, and a genuine move toward the proper resolution of fracturing dualities passed on to us by a very dichotomized and linear Western religious model. Are you working with these archetypes at the moment Sean? How would you recommend safe working here? Rex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sean Posted November 4, 2005 Are you working with these archetypes at the moment Sean? How would you recommend safe working here? 8874[/snapback] I've never specifically done any "formal" type magickal workings with these entities. I guess I've mostly worked with them indirectly, through contemplative study. Reading about Satan and Lucifer from different points of view, contemplating them as mythological structures/living archetypes, seeing how other culture's anthropomorphisms of similar archetypes did not include such fearful reactions or compulsions to literally demonize, ie: Pan and the more sensual Horned Gods in general. This kind of study helped break up some of the repressive Catholic worldview I was raised with. I think that attempting to actually directly work with these Christian archetypes, ie: YHVH, IAM, Jehovah, Yahweh, Yeheshua (Jesus), Satan, Devil(s), Lucifer, Gabriel/Michael/etc Angels, Mary Magdalene, Virgin Mary, Peter, etc, etc. would be an overwhelmingly powerful experience for me. Key word "overwhelming". Maybe one day I will have enriched my perception of these beings with enough diversity to approach them in a balanced way and without fear of being overtaken in literalness and then swept away in sociopolitical Christian cults as I fear happens to many ungrounded "born agains". And honestly I fear I might not have the power to avoid the same fate were I to begin having extreme spiritual phenemona arise in symbolism I was taught was the unarguable truth since birth, and everything else being lies of the Devil more or less. Kind of a freaky thing to admit, but it's a weakness in myself I acknowledge and respect. One piece of Christian imagery that I do love to look at though, and that brings me a certain amount of bliss without scaring me into thinking I am going to freak out and start preaching to the unsaved is the sacred heart. Sean. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) . Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sean Posted November 7, 2005 ... on working with the shadow and distinguishing that from working with active and organised sources of anti-life. Great post Rex, really interesting distinction above. Active and organized sources of anti-life. Would you elaborate on that more? As a non-dualist I tend to perceive the intentions of all sentient beings as all sharing the same core yearning for Oneness, toward Happiness/Enlightenment, just with varying levels of ignorance. I see "evil" as merely being on the super-ignorant end of this spectrum of approaches to Happiness ... to the point where there is actually a turning away from Happiness in a convoluted and confused effort to find Happiness which leads to deepening suffering and hell, and the vicious cycle of samsara. It's scary to think how convoluted this confusion and ignorance can get though. To the point where we have mafias and drug addiction and people raping, and killing each other every day on this plane and, as you allude to, beings forming coalitions of hatred and cruelty on other planes. In some way though these dualities are just increasingly intense pulsations of the original love making of Chokmah and Binah in the unity of Keter, boiling over into the Fire and Water of Geburah and Chesed, and just continually intensifying as polarities down the Tree until we have Jesus and Satan, hippies and fighters, lovers and criminals, etc. Sean. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Posted November 7, 2005 The second circuit is the guardian of your 'territorial emotions - generaly to do with feeling inferior/superior to someone - being intimidated or intimidating - social hierarchy etc. This is, in my case, is the most difficult guardian to shift - the general archetype is a warrior god - and is very much connected with your father. In mythology you often come accross stories of heroes who have to kill their father - otherwise their father kills them! (ever seen Star Wars?) This is I belive the major circuit/guardian that holds people back - it's the one most connected with emotions, emotional communication etc. It's also (implicitly) the scariest guardian there is. I believe that the Fusion practices have to generaly deal with this circuit - otherwise it will not be effective. By a remarkable "coincidence" I once woke up, sweating and terrified, on the morning of a day when I was going to a fusion workshop, from a dream in which I had killed my father, and had been killed for doing so. Never connected the two before. Am still scared of most people and still crap at fusion. Interesting..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
affenbrot Posted November 7, 2005 Leary's model 8886[/snapback] This looks very interesting, can you recommend a good book about it?? The only info I had so far was exactly from that wilson book you provided the link for.... I think one needs to get in touch with all these archetypes - discover their roles and how they control/limit/protect you in your life before transforming them using Fusion. 8886[/snapback] you seem maybe to have similar issues with fusion like I have! (with different outcome though maybe) well, eh, for me the fusion I am coming back to again and again. I really like the practice and had good results when doing it more intense. But in the meantime I tend to practice it more as a kind of tantric energy practice, not so much as a tool or structure to explore my emotions or "shen-issues" with. It just worked out to be this way - to concentrate energy into those fusion patterns, "manipulating them" - I like it the most and it has results... It's also - despite me knowing the shen theory and the approach as taught by Michael Winn - that this does not work for me the shen way and I don't particulary want it to work it that way also... So, but my emotions this practice besides other things was about? I agree here that just "doing" fusion only the "tantric" way probably misses the mark. But when I want to explore my emotions and feelings, I definately prefer things like simply feeling the energetic pattern it holds in my body (which might by something completely different each time) or other ways to get conscious with it (Leary??), and afterwards I just don't feel at all like "I now should really put it into my liver collection point or something" - what for!? it still looks too rigid and cooky cutting. This structure provided by fusion doesn't fit for me on this level (but on the level of qi-pushing as I said above very well!) mh... doing the fusion practice nevertheless, I sometimes experienced surfacing of strong feelings , just by "manipulating chi" and visualisation. I remember the time I learned it with Mantak Chia the effect was so strong I had to quit the seminar...! Hey, my ambivalance about practice seems to reach new heights! bye egghead affenbrot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simon V. Posted November 9, 2005 A very good book on this whole topic of occult shadiness and how to trump it: "Psychic Self Defence" by Dion Fortune. Don't be dissuaded by the cheesy seeming (from our modern cultural perspective) connotations of the title. Simon' date=' do you still work with Dion's material? She strikes me as a very balanced and saner Crowley. Does the material in this book provide anything over learning banishing rituals? . [right']8863[/snapback][/right] Yes, the book is packed full of all kinds of useful information and very interesting and entertaining anecdotes. I've only read The Mystical Qabalah and Psychic Self-Defence and one novel of hers (I believe it's called Moon Magic), but plan to get into all of her stuff eventually. I also want to delve into Gareth Knight (her most well-known and polific modern spokesperson, and an old friend of RJ Stewart--the man who got him published intitially in fact). Right know I am mainly working with RJ Stewart's material--reading Fortune was due to her book being in The Miracle Tree's bibliography. Simon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
