Questions about Wu Wei

[Stigweard]

Jack/Snax asked these questions in the Lobby ... I thought they would be best discussed here.

 

How does Taoism understand the notion of nonaction?

 

Can we develop our ability to engage in nonaction through attention to the workings of our natural flow?

 

How well can natural flow be grasped, and is there an educating process through which we may be able to reacquaint ourselves with its workings?

 

Are there any instances of wu wei and comprehensive attention to qi in our present social circumstances?

 

What difference would it make to restore a connection to natural flow in the context of contemporary life?

 

Heya Jack ... you are asking about the core concepts of Wu Wei ... there is a common misunderstanding that Wu Wei means literally 'no action', however, as I have learned, Wu Wei is better described as 'no action outside of our true nature'. This can also be understood as no contrived, conceptual or artificial action.

 

The perfect example of Wu Wei can be seen in observing a mountain stream. The stream is in constant motion and yet it is Wu Wei because its action arises out the water following its own inherent nature.

 

In Taiji I loosely use the term "The Taiji State". One is in The Taiji State, i.e. Wu Wei, when one is moving without any contrived effort or manipulation ... one is allowing the natural attributes of the body to 'direct' the movement. Taiji is, at least for me, a wonderful tool to help develop an intimate understanding of Wu Wei.

 

In practical circumstances of life you can consider yourself to be in tune with Wu Wei when you are simply following your own natural inspiration or intuition without trying to control or manipulate other people or external circumstances. With this non-interferance approach you are simply allowing things to follow their own course, i.e. you are 'going with the flow'.

 

Our modern life is so full of distractions and we are constantly being exposed to influences that are deliberately trying to 'stir us up', trying to force us into some sort of action, trying to dictate our responses. You must learn to extricate yourself from such influences as best you can so that the subtle energy of one's natural awareness has hope of playing a determining role in your life. Activities like Taiji, Qigong, Nei Tan, calligraphy, art, music, bushwalking etc. can certainly help in that regard.

 

I hope this helps the paper you are writing.

 

Blessings

[steve]

These are some great questions!

I'll add more -

How do we know what is wu wei and what is not?

If I perform some action that appears on the surface to go against the natural way of things, how do we know that action wasn't a part of that natural way?

Who determines what is and is not wu wei?

Is it possible for us to act in any way other than wu wei?

 

This is a fascinating and important topic for me - I think about it alot.

[Jakara]

I was taught that wu-wei relates to "non-compulsive action". That is, no action that arises as part of the primitive, compulsive or instictual part of ourselves. Any action then arises naturally in a completely neutral way, not as a consuquence of impulse or debated logic... If that makes sense.

[Creation]

Some thoughts on wu wei from B. K. Frantzis:

 

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s...Non-Action.html

[NeutralWire]

Personally I do absolutely everything with this concept of flow in mind. The short answer for me is that everything successfully realized spiritually teaches you about this flow, which means being harmonious with what is arising. You start from a position of being unable to harmonize with this, and you move towards that harmony.

 

We know, or at least I know, what is true and what is not by a deep instinct for harmony that we all have -- in the west this used to be called the conscience, and the ability to return, prodigal son-like, to the source of the flowing harmony, rather than act against it, used to be called repentance. These kinds of concepts are out of fashion now though, and maybe rightly so, because they are too easily misused by religious authorities.

 

This concept appears in Stoicism (which so often echoes Taoism) as well -- for example with Zeno of Citium's statement that wisdom is equivalent to 'a harmonious flow of life, in accord with Nature.'

 

xuesheng --

 

Your question is very interesting:

 

If I perform some action that appears on the surface to go against the natural way of things, how do we know that action wasn't a part of that natural way?

 

... and it dovetails with hagar's about the nature of raw or refined.

 

In general it is not possible to go against the natural way, what is possible is to try, to do many things that obstruct the harmony, to be unwise. This is a sort of gift that human beings have, the gift of being their own independent wills and universes -- but never of course in fact independent.

 

The harmony will be maintained, but the human wisdom to act in accord with it and thereby beautify material existence and attain deep illumination will be absent until wisdom is learned. Nothing couldn't be a part of Nature, but human beings, by the exercise of free will, are able to act wisely and harmoniously, or otherwise.

 

To learn the difference is the beginning, to be absolutely in tune so that wisdom arises without thinking, is more advanced to my mind. It goes very gradually, a story at a time. This is not the same as 'not disturbing' the harmony. All actions are still taken, it is just that they are completely in accord with absolutely everything, they don't perturb and jar the harmony but on the contrary aid it to manifest human wisdom, which is the reason for human free will and creativity.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

Edited February 28, 2009 by NeutralWire

[Bruce]

I would venture to say that if the mind moves we are not in accordance with the Tao. If the mind does not move then we can't help but be in accordance with the Tao. Thus, it is not easy to be in accordance with the Tao so we cultivate toward a mind that does not move.

 

In the Shurangama sutra, the Buddha says that trying to add light to enlightenment creates our phenomenal world.

[alfa]

What if the mind keeps thinking about irrelevant stuff, must we also accept this as part of mind nature's to do so (and therefore wu wei)?

[Aetherous]

Birds flying South for the winter is Wu Wei. They don't go learn about it in bird school, or from the Bird te Wing written by Bird tzu. They don't claim to be Birdists studying Birdism.

 

They fly South because it's part of their instinct.

 

If we always followed our true nature as human beings, we would be true Taoists. It may not look like Taoism, because sometimes we might be having sex or getting drunk...we might not be doing calligraphy and writing haikus.

[steve]

What if the mind keeps thinking about irrelevant stuff, must we also accept this as part of mind nature's to do so (and therefore wu wei)?

Exactly! On the one hand, we can say that thought is against wu wei. It's just mind chatter. It's not instinct and doesn't appear to be natural and spontaneous action. On the other hand, it arises from the human brain and occurs in all of us quite naturally. How can it not be wu wei?

[snax]

These responses are excellent! Thank you everyone very much.

 

So could it be said that humans dont really have "free will" but we kid ourselves into believing that we do posess some sort of control? And that what we believe to be free will is just us either behaving instinctually and naturally or trying to fight for some sort of control of our environment and thus interupting or flow?

 

I have also decided to change te topic of my paper a bit. I have decided to juxtapose Taoist ideas of flow and natural action with The Epic of Gilgamesh. Namely Gilgamesh's drastic change of nature and action that occurs because of his interaction and friendship with Enkidu, who represents nature.

 

I would appreciate any opinions and really anything anyone has to say about these topics.

 

Thank you.

[Stigweard]

So could it be said that humans dont really have "free will" but we kid ourselves into believing that we do posess some sort of control? And that what we believe to be free will is just us either behaving instinctually and naturally or trying to fight for some sort of control of our environment and thus interupting or flow?

Perhaps, I can certainly hear the logic in your assertion ... becareful though that you are not trying to 'fit' the concept of Wu Wei into your own conceptual understanding or using it to try and prove an already determined theoretical conclusion.

I have also decided to change te topic of my paper a bit. I have decided to juxtapose Taoist ideas of flow and natural action with The Epic of Gilgamesh. Namely Gilgamesh's drastic change of nature and action that occurs because of his interaction and friendship with Enkidu, who represents nature.

Sounds interesting ... can't say I know the story of Gilgamesh though ... would be interested in hearing of your conclusions on this.

 

[snax]

sure thing. once i finally finish the paper i'll post excerpts here.

[11:33]

I'm new here. Second post actually.

 

I'd like to add my two cents on the subject of wu wei.

 

To me wu wei means being natural. Letting-go and being led from within. It is an intuitive way of living that opens you to the infinite. The normal conscious mind is limited in what it can know, but through wu wei we can open up to the infinite within us as well as outside of us.

 

This isn't just a theoretical concept to me. I have many situations where I allowed myself to be led by some unseen force and had something very beneficial come of it. But to really open up to this you have to let-go of preconceptions.

 

To me a state of wu wei feels like letting your spirit move you. And as your spirit is connected to THE Spirit, it is somewhat like letting-go and letting God. though it can be quite mundane, like knowing intuitively what food to eat for dinner, etc...

 

All the Best

[Stigweard]

I'm new here. Second post actually.

 

I'd like to add my two cents on the subject of wu wei.

 

To me wu wei means being natural. Letting-go and being led from within. It is an intuitive way of living that opens you to the infinite. The normal conscious mind is limited in what it can know, but through wu wei we can open up to the infinite within us as well as outside of us.

 

This isn't just a theoretical concept to me. I have many situations where I allowed myself to be led by some unseen force and had something very beneficial come of it. But to really open up to this you have to let-go of preconceptions.

 

To me a state of wu wei feels like letting your spirit move you. And as your spirit is connected to THE Spirit, it is somewhat like letting-go and letting God. though it can be quite mundane, like knowing intuitively what food to eat for dinner, etc...

 

All the Best

Well said.

 

[WhiteTiger]

I really like this topic and I personally believe and think that many people have hinted very well at explaining Wu Wei... but I definitely feel that have the proper understanding through experience of Wu Wei.

 

For a lack of perfection... I seem to feel that there is a serious lack of how everyone described Wu Wei.

 

I personally not extremely good at explaining things at words... Nor am i instructor or even a teacher in anyway.

 

Wu Wei has two sides to it. You doing action to preserve yourself. You doing None Action against others. This is to practice the fundamental Taoist aspect of allowing things to be natural. To adhere to the laws of Nature. Taoists even go so far as to observe nature and mimic its functional aspects.

 

Prime example:

They say Taijiquan was created by watching a

Crane fighting an Ape.

Edited May 17, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[mYTHmAKER]

wu wei non action. Being in alignment with - arising from natural movement not ego not mind.

 

 

 

Wu Wei has two sides to it. You doing action to preserve yourself. You doing None Action against others.

 

One does non action to preserve oneself - not action.

One cannot do non action against others. If it AGAINST others it is action.

[WhiteTiger]

wu wei non action. Being in alignment with - arising from natural movement not ego not mind.

One does non action to preserve oneself - not action.

One cannot do non action against others. If it AGAINST others it is action.

 

HAHAHA once again I'm not very good at explaining things in words.

 

I totally 100% agree with what your saying MythMaker.

 

What I mean is... Through Non Action you learn to stabilize yourself.

 

This is true practice of Wu Wei.

Edited May 17, 2009 by WhiteTiger