Don't worry be happy?

[steve]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

the ways or teachings of renunciates are often being quoted at this site but a householder/family person can not rightly be a renunciate and also fulfill their householder dharma at the same time....In many/most Hindu traditions when a householder has fulfilled that dharma then they can transition to being a renunciate,  whereas some become vowed renunciates/monks or nuns of an order at a very early age.  What problems have you seen along such lines?  

 

I've not spent much time on the path of renunciation so I can't really comment much.

Not saying it would not be effective, even for me maybe, but I'm glad I found an alternative.

I do think it is a difficult path to tread for a householder.

 

 

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

"...We remain human and it is the human mind that experiences and recollects the release of limitations as some special state. That in and of itself is a bit of an error."  Steve

 

There is a lot packed into your sentence above! (and the related post)  Is there an 'if' in part of it?  My interpretation along that line would say that the traced memory of "it" is not "it".  (but that pointers/maps/signposts can surely help) 

 

Not sure where or if an "if" would fit in there, do you have a suggestion?

 

[Cobie]

.
 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Cobie

[steve]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

One cannot have a sensible discussion with someone from another Way, as long as either is locked up inside their own Way.

 

 

 

Yes, but one can have one hell of an argument!

DaoBums for the win!

 

Edited Sunday at 11:51 PM by steve

[oak]

Question for @Bindi

How do you deal with powerful cathartic dreams? The kind that can shock you deeply as you find yourself for example expressing agression or sexuality without any boundaries, that is doing things that your conscious self would never aprove. I do understand that the reason why they happen is repressed energy, even so in my case it was something I couldn't deal with.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

To me all systems look to be about the integration of water and spirit (πνεῦμα‎‎, John 3:5). Just different terminology. E.g.  風水 (feng1 shui3) wind and water. E.g. DDJ 42:

萬 物 負 陰 (wan4 wu4 fu4 yin1) As for everyone - everyone turning their back on the yin

而 抱 陽 也 (er2 bao4 yang2) and embracing the yang;

中 氣 為 和 (zhong1 qi4 wei2 he2) It’s the blending of yin and yang, that creates harmony.

 

 

 

That is interesting .   Genesis ;  ⁶ And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” ⁷ So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. ⁸ God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

 

'water above the vault ' ;  'spirit ' ? 

 

Perhaps this 'air' is spirit ?  'Pneuma' , the 'higher' aspect of air , maybe relates to  breat and that which 'brings life (spirit) ' . 

 

resulting in  (in hermetics )  Air (primary spirit - the one )   ,  'spilts' into polarities  ( and obvious 'opposites' ) ; air (lower) and fire, ( now forming a triad )  gives birth to earth  ( the 10,000 things ) .

 

That is ; the 'triad/ supernal/ ideal'  combination of forces ; when it breaks into the fourth , the 10,000 things  form  4 elements , but in polarity of 'active and passive '  (carry the original signature )  and now are in the order ; fire then water, air earth . 

 

But why is the higher 'air'  considered 'water above the vault '  ?    

 

Either ; its all that rain and clouds up there (where did that come from ???? )  or   ..... (Egypt again )

 

  .... Ra travels through the sky/heavens in a boat  .

Edited yesterday at 02:37 AM by Nungali

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

I've not spent much time on the path of renunciation so I can't really comment much.

Not saying it would not be effective, even for me maybe, but I'm glad I found an alternative.

I do think it is a difficult path to tread for a householder.

 

Not sure where or if an "if" would fit in there, do you have a suggestion?

 

 

not many advanced teachers are married with multiple kids and a 9-5 job of  working 45-60 hrs+ a week along with a travel commute, and that is only part of the package of dealing with all the other demands of being a householder in the world!  Young kids alone are almost a 24-7 job for one of their parents, or if and when they switch on and off.  Ad taking care of parents and grandparents to that...

Edited yesterday at 02:34 AM by old3bob

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

There are loads of “models”/traditions/Ways. Imo not useful to judge other models with the ‘tools’ of your own model.

 

 

 

I propose 2 new categories of study, the science of spirituality and the science of the subtle energy body. It involves mapping the realities of spirituality and the subtle body, and it’s not on an I reckon or I’ve heard basis, but aims to be as close as possible to the scientific method. 
 

in this study there can be such a thing as established truth that can be built upon and discussed, competing hypotheses can be presented, and disputes are inevitable and valuable as they directly contribute to an increasing body of knowledge of reality. 

As an analogy, if someone claims in conversation that the earth is flat, the World Trade Center was an American government false flag operation, or Jewish space lasers caused a hurricane, can we call these positions out, or do we have to respect individual beliefs? 

 

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The collapse of the reality of a "self", the collapse of the experience of "space", and time end the quest. What if you knew based on your experience RIGHT NOW, that this was the only place/time you could be in? It isn't about beliefs - beliefs are what we construct when we don't gnow through gnosis. Gnosis is this-moment experience of the deeper reality, not an abstraction, a constructed theory. It is permanent because it can always be seen, and is the pervasive quality of reality. There is no arriving, or destination. They are understood to be fictions.

 

 

That's the thing - there is (famously) no way to really conceptualize it. Even the best models (Nagarjuna, for example) of what it is are wrong. The moment they use the subject/object structure of language they are instantly wrong. There is no "this happens to this" story about the nature of it that can explicate it. It isn't "my" model, it is just "here", omnipresent. No model can supplant it. 

 

 

I remember yes. But, are your nadi's, channels, chakras, or dantians things you can touch or see or show someone else, or are the conceptual - another story about how things work?

Nadi’s and channels show up in dreams, think streams and rivers in various degrees of water flow for Ida/yin channel, and corridors that are dark and stifling or light and airy and open to fire for pingala/yang channel. 
 

For chakras it’s helpful to build upon Edgar cayces assertion that the glands are the physical underpinnings of the chakras. 
 

Dantians are a curious phenomenon, they’re like forgotten architecture in our subtle energy bodies that can be developed by very specific processes, I propose that evidence of dantians that are working are things like directed qi healing from the palms. This is measurable, it can be studied in a very strict manner, I’d happily take part in that experiment if anyone ever wanted to set it up. 
 

All of the above is visible to someone with “direct sight”. This is the frontier of human consciousness and awareness, multiple groups have knowledge of these systems, including Indian tantrics and yogis, Tibetan Buddhists, early neidan practitioners, there may be more. 
 

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, oak said:

Question for @Bindi

How do you deal with powerful cathartic dreams? The kind that can shock you deeply as you find yourself for example expressing agression or sexuality without any boundaries, that is doing things that your conscious self would never aprove. I do understand that the reason why they happen is repressed energy, even so in my case it was something I couldn't deal with.

Part of my method for dream work is to “feel the feeling” after the dream has been interpreted to the best of one’s ability, which I did by recreating the dream in my mind and allowing myself as much as possible to re-enter the feeling created by the dream image. Doing this for decades, slowly getting better at it, allows the full force of a feeling to be experienced over time, and really this is what a fully open emotional channel is. Rumi’s poem captures the work perfectly - 

 

The Guest House
Rumi
Translated by Coleman Barks

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

[old3bob]

 

"...We remain human..." By Steve,  I wasn't sure of your import there (?) but 'if' we remain human then we have not yet realized that being identified as a particular human/mind is only an apparent and passing identity.  

 

Edited yesterday at 04:36 AM by old3bob

[steve]

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

"...We remain human..." By Steve,  I wasn't sure of your import there (?) but 'if' we remain human then we have not yet realized that being identified as a particular human/mind is only an apparent and passing identity.  

 

 

I agree, it is an apparent and passing identity.

Nevertheless, it is how we experience life from birth to death, defined by this human form and sensory apparatus.

It is what we have to practice and realize with.

Realization does not mean that our human form vanishes, at least that is my experience.

It persists until death or rainbow body (in the dzogchen tradition).

Consequently, it is important for me to be aware that I am not the pure and perfect mind itself, i am a practitioner - which is an expression of that pure and perfect mind.

Conflating the two leads to errors in understanding and practice in the teachings I follow.

 

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, steve said:

 

I agree, it is an apparent and passing identity.

Nevertheless, it is how we experience life from birth to death, defined by this human form and sensory apparatus.

It is what we have to practice and realize with.

Realization does not mean that our human form vanishes, at least that is my experience.

It persists until death or rainbow body (in the dzogchen tradition).

Consequently, it is important for me to be aware that I am not the pure and perfect mind itself, i am a practitioner - which is an expression of that pure and perfect mind.

Conflating the two leads to errors in understanding and practice in the teachings I follow.

 

 

That's evolution, yes?  In Hinduism in general the Self does not evolve and knows the Self by the Self.  (with a pure mind being a great and  important  tool and preparation but not the Self, nor can mind cross the barrier of things which it is part of to reach or know the Self)

Edited 11 hours ago by old3bob

[stirling]

23 hours ago, old3bob said:

just a side note:  there is the Zen story of a person who had little training yet upon hearing a wise concept/saying he suddenly got "it"!   Maybe Mark or anyone else could fill us in on that? 

 

As an ordained teacher of Zen I can tell you: Zen is big on the "sudden enlightenment" idea. This refers to the idea that, while there may be many years of learning and practice, it is not the practice that actually enlightens. It is commonly said that the sound of a kicked pebble hitting a pot could awaken you. You could be driving to the tire store, making a sandwich, or... anything. 

 

There are also those (in Buddhism) called Pratyeka buddhas - they awaken with no method or exposure to the teachings. They are real - I have met a couple. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhayāna

 

I am satisfied that enlightenment doesn't belong to any particular tradition, or philosophy, and isn't caused by any particular practice, what matters is that there is a moment where the reality of the understanding is noticed suddenly, usually when the mind is quiet. 

[old3bob]

 

and I'd say such a "sudden" which is now, is not really of time or on a time line.... 

(thus not strictly bound in ways that we might think)

Edited 11 hours ago by old3bob

[stirling]

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

All of the above is visible to someone with “direct sight”. This is the frontier of human consciousness and awareness, multiple groups have knowledge of these systems, including Indian tantrics and yogis, Tibetan Buddhists, early neidan practitioners, there may be more. 

 

What is "direct sight"? I have actually trained in some of the Tibetan Buddhist energy and visualization practices, but the visual aspect is imaginative in my experience. 

[stirling]

27 minutes ago, old3bob said:

and I'd say such a "sudden" which is now, is not really of time or on a time line.... 

(thus not strictly bound in ways that we might think)

 

This is actually a very important point you make, Bob... thanks.

 

Part of what is realized and then forever available to be seen is precisely this breakdown of our idea about time happening along some sort of continuum. 

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

I propose 2 new categories of study, the science of spirituality and the science of the subtle energy body. It involves mapping the realities of spirituality and the subtle body, and it’s not on an I reckon or I’ve heard basis, but aims to be as close as possible to the scientific method. 
 

in this study there can be such a thing as established truth that can be built upon and discussed, competing hypotheses can be presented, and disputes are inevitable and valuable as they directly contribute to an increasing body of knowledge of reality. 

As an analogy, if someone claims in conversation that the earth is flat, the World Trade Center was an American government false flag operation, or Jewish space lasers caused a hurricane, can we call these positions out, or do we have to respect individual beliefs? 

 

 

Well ..... Yo Momma dont be sittin on them other planets .

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

This is actually a very important point you make, Bob... thanks.

 

Part of what is realized and then forever available to be seen is precisely this breakdown of our idea about time happening along some sort of continuum. 

 

Although I'd say time and space in time and space realms (which vary) apply and thus should not be written off as some kind of delusion.

[steve]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

That's evolution, yes?

 

I can't see how anything I described is evolution.

Feel free to explain.

The perfect and pure mind, otherwise known as Buddha-mind, does not evolve.

 

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

  In Hinduism in general the Self does not evolve and knows the Self by the Self.  (with a pure mind being a great and  important  tool and preparation but not the Self, nor can mind cross the barrier of things which it is part of to reach or know the Self)

 

People like to say things like 'only the Self knows the Self,' in my tradition it is often referred to as "Self-awareness," but nevertheless the ones writing and talking about this stuff, teaching others, having realization, traversing the bardos, and engaging in practice are people. They are manifestations, expressions of the Self, not equivalent to the Self.

 

My teacher's teacher used to say, "Remember, we are not dzogchen, we are dzogchen-pa," -pa- referring to practitioner. Seeing yourself as "the Self" or the pure nature of mind, is an error, it denies our human form and related imperfections which color our experience, though they can be extremely subtle at times. This conflation leads to deviations in practice and understanding. 

 

This is just my experience and understanding of the tradition I study and practice.

Others may experience and understand things differently.

 

6 hours ago, stirling said:

You could be driving to the tire store,

 

...or to a vacation rental on Deep Creek Lake.

At least I had a few days off work to adjust.

It was a wild ride!

 

[stirling]

8 minutes ago, steve said:

...or to a vacation rental on Deep Creek Lake.

At least I had a few days off work to adjust.

It was a wild ride!

 

 

Oh... how interesting! Yeah... driving like that is quite an unprecedented and foreign experience the first time out!

[steve]

20 hours ago, Bindi said:

Part of my method for dream work is to “feel the feeling” after the dream has been interpreted to the best of one’s ability, which I did by recreating the dream in my mind and allowing myself as much as possible to re-enter the feeling created by the dream image. Doing this for decades, slowly getting better at it, allows the full force of a feeling to be experienced over time, and really this is what a fully open emotional channel is. Rumi’s poem captures the work perfectly - 

 

 

The Guest House
Rumi
Translated by Coleman Barks

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

 

Your method for dream work is very similar to the method in my tradition for working with any experience, including dreams.

Just as you recreate and embody the dream in your mind and feelings, we do the same with any experience or person that generates reactivity. These can be very recent experiences, alive in us at this very moment. They can be remote memories, dreams, people who generate reactivity, future worries, any life experience.

 

We turn to the experience if it is active in the moment, or recreate whatever it is we want to work with as vividly as possible in body, speech, and mind. We sit with that for as long as it is fresh and alive. While we don't engage with it intellectually, we are often taken to earlier times and other experiences that may have some connection, often a connection we were not aware of. The one thing that may be a bit different is that we are working with the sense of a "me" who is being affected by the experience rather than hosting the experience itself. It's a very subtle but important difference in our paradigm. And we rest in the stillness, silence, and spaciousness. This is referred to as hosting pain identities. . It's a wonderful and powerful practice and one way we avoid the bypassing that can so easily happen to practitioners.

[steve]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

and I'd say such a "sudden" which is now, is not really of time or on a time line.... 

(thus not strictly bound in ways that we might think)

 

I would say that for the practitioner, it is very much of time.

There is a very distinct before and after. 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Your method for dream work is very similar to the method in my tradition for working with any experience, including dreams.

Just as you recreate and embody the dream in your mind and feelings, we do the same with any experience or person that generates reactivity. These can be very recent experiences, alive in us at this very moment. They can be remote memories, dreams, people who generate reactivity, future worries, any life experience.
 

 

If I have an emotional reaction to someone or something and it’s a painful emotion or just something I’d prefer not to feel, I will catch myself tightening against it and remind myself to allow myself to fully feel it, so I agree there’s more than just dreams to do this with. The thing about dreams is I see them as a programme that a governing part of myself, some very broad knowledge part of myself, an overarching consciousness, is running over time, designed to undo reactive history at the root, both the historical emotions and stories that have conditioned us. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

We turn to the experience if it is active in the moment, or recreate whatever it is we want to work with as vividly as possible in body, speech, and mind. We sit with that for as long as it is fresh and alive. While we don't engage with it intellectually, we are often taken to earlier times and other experiences that may have some connection, often a connection we were not aware of. The one thing that may be a bit different is that we are working with the sense of a "me" who is being affected by the experience rather than hosting the experience itself. It's a very subtle but important difference in our paradigm. And we rest in the stillness, silence, and spaciousness. This is referred to as hosting pain identities. . It's a wonderful and powerful practice and one way we avoid the bypassing that can so easily happen to practitioners.

I did identify with the feelings, I did see them as me, but there came a time when I started to shift my primary identification from being my thoughts and emotions to different aspects of myself. 
 

From all the information I’ve gathered the thought/emotion level is the paired side channels, the emotional channel going up and the mental channel coming down, creating a circuit. I see it as my consciousness travelling up the emotional channel (which took thirty years or so) and down the mental channel (which took a couple of months), removing all blocks as I went. Completing one circuit of the side channels allowed the consciousness’s of the central channel to activate, and my identification as being my emotional/mental level is diminishing. But in my paradigm though emotions and thoughts dont not drive me like they did, they remain as valid informants giving my whole organism important information. Energy still flows through them, they’re part of my subtle body, but they’re not the governor. 

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

What is "direct sight"? I have actually trained in some of the Tibetan Buddhist energy and visualization practices, but the visual aspect is imaginative in my experience. 

My mother was born with the ability to see the equivalent of a photographic image pop up randomly in her mind that contained information. After some years of dream work with me that suddenly turned into videos of information, that she could turn on, on demand. I found it to be a fascinating insight into the subtle body, she could also see inside the physical body. What she saw was remarkably similar to Indian information regarding the subtle body, as well as certain aspects of neidan, which is actually what brought me to this site, wanting to compare what she saw with what neidan stated. She herself was brought up Christian and had no idea what the things she saw meant, she simply stated what she saw. I understand that you might not believe any of this, but I was certainly convinced.